Basil Jet wrote:
On 2011\10\30 16:21, Nick Finnigan wrote:
On 30/10/2011 08:03, Basil Jet wrote:
At the crossroads of Exhibition Road and Cromwell Road SW7, traffic
approaching from three directions is now banned from turning left or
right.
This is signified by the green light being a forward arrow. At other
junctions where both turns are banned you would see a vertical white
arrow
on a blue background beneath the three traffic lights, but they have not
done that here.

I would expect to see 'no left turn' and 'no right turn' signs in red
circles alongside or under the green arrow.

After a little googling, it seems that is the norm for forced forward
across a two way road (except Oxford Street, curiously), whereas the
blue arrow is the norm for forced forward because both side roads are no
entry. Perhaps the distinction is to help police cars etc. know that
it's okay to ignore the former but you have to be bloody careful when
ignoring the latter. I've always thought that there should be some
distinction between banned turn because of no entry and banned turn
because it's a banned turn, to help police cars driving at speed.


I wonder if the problem is that the necessary Traffic Orders were not
applied for in time? Traffic engineers would then be left to install
the lights with green arrows and hope that people obeyed them while
the Traffic Orders were obtained and the mandatory white-on-blue
'ahead only' arrows eventually added to the junction.

Problems would occur if, when the green arrow was showing, the
pedestrian signals on the crossing of the side road were showing the
green walking man. There would be a risk of a driver turning left or
right (against the lit green arrow but not illegal because the
mandatory white-on-blue instruction sign was missing) colliding with a
pedestrian on the crossing.

Nightjar wrote:
On 30/10/2011 08:03, Basil Jet wrote:
At the crossroads of Exhibition Road and Cromwell Road SW7, traffic
approaching from three directions is now banned from turning left or
right. This is signified by the green light being a forward arrow. At
other junctions where both turns are banned you would see a vertical
white arrow on a blue background beneath the three traffic lights, but
they have not done that here. The result is that if you arrive at the
junction when the light is red, you may not know that the turns are
banned until the light turns green, and since most people start moving
when the amber comes on, that seems a bit late to me.

Amber still means stop, so they shouldn't be moving until the green
light comes on, by which time the indication is clear.


Theoretically correct, but only theoretically.

On 2011\10\30 17:01, Nightjar wrote:
On 30/10/2011 08:03, Basil Jet wrote:
At the crossroads of Exhibition Road and Cromwell Road SW7, traffic
approaching from three directions is now banned from turning left or
right. This is signified by the green light being a forward arrow. At
other junctions where both turns are banned you would see a vertical
white arrow on a blue background beneath the three traffic lights, but
they have not done that here. The result is that if you arrive at the
junction when the light is red, you may not know that the turns are
banned until the light turns green, and since most people start moving
when the amber comes on, that seems a bit late to me.

Amber still means stop, so they shouldn't be moving until the green
light comes on, by which time the indication is clear.

Crashes will occur. People will pull off to turn left, notice the green
arrow and stop while they think and get rear-ended. You might say people
shouldn't do this, but the golden rule of driving is don't confuse other
road users, and this signage will confuse and will cause crashes. It
might have already happened, it would explain why the temporary easel
signs have been put in.

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2011\10\30 16:21, Nick Finnigan wrote:
On 30/10/2011 08:03, Basil Jet wrote:
At the crossroads of Exhibition Road and Cromwell Road SW7, traffic
approaching from three directions is now banned from turning left or
right.
This is signified by the green light being a forward arrow. At other
junctions where both turns are banned you would see a vertical white
arrow
on a blue background beneath the three traffic lights, but they have
not
done that here.

I would expect to see 'no left turn' and 'no right turn' signs in red
circles alongside or under the green arrow.

After a little googling, it seems that is the norm for forced forward
across a two way road (except Oxford Street, curiously), whereas the
blue arrow is the norm for forced forward because both side roads are no
entry. Perhaps the distinction is to help police cars etc. know that
it's okay to ignore the former but you have to be bloody careful when
ignoring the latter. I've always thought that there should be some
distinction between banned turn because of no entry and banned turn
because it's a banned turn, to help police cars driving at speed.


I wonder if the problem is that the necessary Traffic Orders were not
applied for in time? Traffic engineers would then be left to install
the lights with green arrows and hope that people obeyed them while
the Traffic Orders were obtained and the mandatory white-on-blue
'ahead only' arrows eventually added to the junction.

Surely lack of Traffic Order means that the restriction cannot be applied
until the TO is in effect. Incorrect or inadequate sign-posting means that
the order is not legally enforceable. And I'd expect the signs at *all*
banned turns to be consistent, and not to conform to different standards
based on what, for most drivers, is a technicality. There is no harm in
telling people essentially the same thing in more than one way (green arrow
and no turn left/right signs) - there are no prizes for being minimalist and
reducing the level of signage. If "redundant" signs reduce accidents and
maybe even save lives, they are a good thing.

"Mortimer" wrote:
"Bruce" wrote in message
.. .
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2011\10\30 16:21, Nick Finnigan wrote:
On 30/10/2011 08:03, Basil Jet wrote:
At the crossroads of Exhibition Road and Cromwell Road SW7, traffic
approaching from three directions is now banned from turning left or
right.
This is signified by the green light being a forward arrow. At other
junctions where both turns are banned you would see a vertical white
arrow
on a blue background beneath the three traffic lights, but they have
not
done that here.

I would expect to see 'no left turn' and 'no right turn' signs in red
circles alongside or under the green arrow.

After a little googling, it seems that is the norm for forced forward
across a two way road (except Oxford Street, curiously), whereas the
blue arrow is the norm for forced forward because both side roads are no
entry. Perhaps the distinction is to help police cars etc. know that
it's okay to ignore the former but you have to be bloody careful when
ignoring the latter. I've always thought that there should be some
distinction between banned turn because of no entry and banned turn
because it's a banned turn, to help police cars driving at speed.


I wonder if the problem is that the necessary Traffic Orders were not
applied for in time? Traffic engineers would then be left to install
the lights with green arrows and hope that people obeyed them while
the Traffic Orders were obtained and the mandatory white-on-blue
'ahead only' arrows eventually added to the junction.

Surely lack of Traffic Order means that the restriction cannot be applied
until the TO is in effect. Incorrect or inadequate sign-posting means that
the order is not legally enforceable. And I'd expect the signs at *all*
banned turns to be consistent, and not to conform to different standards
based on what, for most drivers, is a technicality. There is no harm in
telling people essentially the same thing in more than one way (green arrow
and no turn left/right signs) - there are no prizes for being minimalist and
reducing the level of signage. If "redundant" signs reduce accidents and
maybe even save lives, they are a good thing.


I agree completely. But I suspect what may have happened is that the
work has gone ahead anyway, and the traffic engineers felt they had to
implement something.

This is pure surmise, however.

On 2011\10\30 18:29, Mortimer wrote:

Surely lack of Traffic Order means that the restriction cannot be
applied until the TO is in effect. Incorrect or inadequate sign-posting
means that the order is not legally enforceable. And I'd expect the
signs at *all* banned turns to be consistent, and not to conform to
different standards based on what, for most drivers, is a technicality.
There is no harm in telling people essentially the same thing in more
than one way (green arrow and no turn left/right signs) - there are no
prizes for being minimalist and reducing the level of signage. If
"redundant" signs reduce accidents and maybe even save lives, they are a
good thing.

Maybe it's a power saving measure... some sustainability guru has worked
out how much power is used by having a white on blue arrow lit up all
night, when traffic is banned from moving half the time anyway.

On 30/10/2011 17:45, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2011\10\30 17:01, Nightjar wrote:
On 30/10/2011 08:03, Basil Jet wrote:
At the crossroads of Exhibition Road and Cromwell Road SW7, traffic
approaching from three directions is now banned from turning left or
right. This is signified by the green light being a forward arrow. At
other junctions where both turns are banned you would see a vertical
white arrow on a blue background beneath the three traffic lights, but
they have not done that here. The result is that if you arrive at the
junction when the light is red, you may not know that the turns are
banned until the light turns green, and since most people start moving
when the amber comes on, that seems a bit late to me.

Amber still means stop, so they shouldn't be moving until the green
light comes on, by which time the indication is clear.

Crashes will occur. People will pull off to turn left, notice the green
arrow and stop while they think and get rear-ended. You might say people
shouldn't do this, but the golden rule of driving is don't confuse other
road users, and this signage will confuse and will cause crashes. It
might have already happened, it would explain why the temporary easel
signs have been put in.

I would guess that the temporary signs are there pending the
installation of a permanent up arrow, which the Traffic Signs Manual
gives as the correct sign for use in this situation when the junction is
controlled by lights.

Colin Bignell

On 30/10/2011 17:35, Bruce wrote:
wrote:
On 30/10/2011 08:03, Basil Jet wrote:
At the crossroads of Exhibition Road and Cromwell Road SW7, traffic
approaching from three directions is now banned from turning left or
right. This is signified by the green light being a forward arrow. At
other junctions where both turns are banned you would see a vertical
white arrow on a blue background beneath the three traffic lights, but
they have not done that here. The result is that if you arrive at the
junction when the light is red, you may not know that the turns are
banned until the light turns green, and since most people start moving
when the amber comes on, that seems a bit late to me.

Amber still means stop, so they shouldn't be moving until the green
light comes on, by which time the indication is clear.


Theoretically correct, but only theoretically.

People breaking the law cannot expect traffic signs to be adapted to
suit their particular illegal actions.

Colin Bignell

On 30/10/2011 16:21, Nick Finnigan wrote:
On 30/10/2011 08:03, Basil Jet wrote:
At the crossroads of Exhibition Road and Cromwell Road SW7, traffic
approaching from three directions is now banned from turning left or
right.
This is signified by the green light being a forward arrow. At other
junctions where both turns are banned you would see a vertical white
arrow
on a blue background beneath the three traffic lights, but they have not
done that here.

I would expect to see 'no left turn' and 'no right turn' signs in red
circles alongside or under the green arrow.

According to the Traffic Sings Manual, at lights controlled crossings, a
single arrow indicating the only permitted direction of travel is the
correct choice of sign. At uncontrolled junctions, either that or two
signs, showing no left turn and no right turn are acceptable.

Colin Bignell

Nightjar wrote:
On 30/10/2011 17:35, Bruce wrote:
wrote:
On 30/10/2011 08:03, Basil Jet wrote:
At the crossroads of Exhibition Road and Cromwell Road SW7, traffic
approaching from three directions is now banned from turning left or
right. This is signified by the green light being a forward arrow. At
other junctions where both turns are banned you would see a vertical
white arrow on a blue background beneath the three traffic lights, but
they have not done that here. The result is that if you arrive at the
junction when the light is red, you may not know that the turns are
banned until the light turns green, and since most people start moving
when the amber comes on, that seems a bit late to me.

Amber still means stop, so they shouldn't be moving until the green
light comes on, by which time the indication is clear.


Theoretically correct, but only theoretically.

People breaking the law cannot expect traffic signs to be adapted to
suit their particular illegal actions.


Where did I say they could, or should?

Please read - and think - before replying.