Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

Following on from Monday's service meltdown on the Thameslink core route at
City Thameslink station (which was seemingly mended and then promptly broke
again), there is now a signalling problem elsewhere, this time on the
Midland mainline between Cricklewood and Radlett - from FCC JourneyCheck -
and it seems like its going to last right into the evening and night:

http://www.jcheck.com/firstcapitalconnect

---quote---
Owing to signalling problems between Cricklewood and Radlett all lines are
blocked. Train services through these stations may be subject to disruption
on all routes at short notice. Disruption is expected until 23:45 11/11.

Additional Information:
Ticket acceptance is available on LUL, local buses and Croydon Tramlink
across London. London Midland, Euston to Milton Keynes, including Watford to
St Albans Abbey. FCC Great Northern Kings Cross to Peterborough. Southern
any reasonable route.

A plan is being put together for services to run as follows:
City Thameslink to Sutton, London Bridge to Brighton, Bedford to Luton.

Bus replacement as follows,
St Albans to Hatfield, Luton/Luton Airport Parkway to Hitchin, Bedford to St
Neots.

Customers travelling to and from London are advised to travel from Kings
Cross and connect into the replacement buses.

Message Received :11/11/2011 14:29
---/quote---

More info from NRE he
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/sa34a55203f2481ca1845d3fc436cc1b/details.html

The above states that "Trains between Sevenoaks and Kentish Town are
currently suspended" and "A half hourly service will run between London
Victoria and Sevenoaks via Catford", seemingly to fill in for the former.
(These Sevenoaks services are run by Southeastern south of Blackfriars, so
FCC only half-acknowledges their existence.)

The statement that "No First Capital Connect trains will run between West
Hampstead Thameslink and St Albans" suggests that at least some FCC
Thameslink trains will get as far north as West Hampstead.


The ongoing unreliability of the Thameslink route is the stuff of legend,
which is a great shame as it's such a useful service when it works
properly - the supposed light at the end of the tunnel is the 'new &
improved' Thameslink after the extensive TL Programme upgrade, but one does
wonder whether it'll work as planned if 'they' can't get things right now (I
fear there might be a 'one day over the rainbow' attitude w.r.t. Thameslink,
meaning that there might be a temptation to brush over the failures of today
because of the beckoning promise of the bright new post-TL upgrade
tomorrow - but the new, post-upgraded Thameslink won't just magically work
properly all by itself).

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

On Nov 11, 2:36*pm, "Mizter T" wrote:

A plan is being put together for services to run as follows:
City Thameslink to Sutton, London Bridge to Brighton, Bedford to Luton.

Bus replacement as follows,
St Albans to Hatfield, Luton/Luton Airport Parkway to Hitchin, Bedford to St
Neots.

Going to be hard to get enough buses to do that! (It's a bit
different if you get a problem like this in the morning, as those with
an option to work from home usually will when faced with that kind of
disruption).

If trains are running Bedford-Luton, might a better answer be to
bustitute (taxi-stitute, more like) Bedford-Bletchley local stations,
get some DMUs down from somewhere (LM got any spare 150s that haven't
cascaded yet?) and run a 4-car shuttle Bedford-Bletchley as frequently
as possible, with stop orders at Bletchley for all LM services that
don't presently stop there?

Neil

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

On Nov 11, 2:58*pm, Neil Williams wrote:

If trains are running Bedford-Luton, might a better answer be to
bustitute (taxi-stitute, more like) Bedford-Bletchley local stations,
get some DMUs down from somewhere (LM got any spare 150s that haven't
cascaded yet?) and run a 4-car shuttle Bedford-Bletchley as frequently
as possible, with stop orders at Bletchley for all LM services that
don't presently stop there?

Actually, scratch that:-

"East Midlands Trains services can now run between London St Pancras
International and Luton / Bedford"

So they're going to be quite busy, then. Time to hire in some
locomotives and stock to ensure everything is 10-car?

Neil

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

I was interested in the alternatives:

Passengers may use:

East Coast services between London Kings Cross and Doncaster
CrossCountry trains between Birmingham New Street and Leicester on some
services
Grand Central on all reasonable routes
London Midland on all reasonable routes
London Underground on all reasonable routes
Virgin Trains on all reasonable routes

Perhaps I've missed it before, but having Grand Central accepting EMT
tickets is something I don't recall before.

David

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

"Mizter T" wrote:
http://www.jcheck.com/firstcapitalconnect

---quote---
Owing to signalling problems between Cricklewood and Radlett all lines are
blocked. Train services through these stations may be subject to
disruption on all routes at short notice. Disruption is expected until
23:45 11/11.
[...]
---/quote---

More info from NRE he
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/sa34a55203f2481ca1845d3fc436cc1b/details.html

The NRE page said and is still saying "Journeys between London St Pancras
International and Luton may be delayed by up to 90 minutes", whilst the
JourneyCheck message said and still says that "all lines are blocked" -
looking at FCC's Twitter stream, the latter message would appear to be
correct and nothing's moving through the affected area, e.g.:
http://twitter.com/#!/FirstCC/status/135006922691723264

That doesn't stop LDB from promising trains that seemingly can't run, for
example the St Pancras LDB is showing trains to Luton and Bedford...
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/ldbboard/dep/STP

....whilst the Mill Hill Broadway LDB still suggests services are running to
and from the station (when it actually falls within the portion of the line
that's supposedly blocked)...
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/ldbboard/dep/MIL

Also, haven't seen this before (but maybe I've just never looked for it) -
on the NRE 'Service alterations' page, under the "Ticket Acceptance /
Alternative travel routes" heading, this is one of the bullet points:

---quote---
* Local Buses between Welwyn Garden City and Luton (Route 366) and Potters
Bar and St Albans (Route 84). Please note, you will need to purchase a
ticket for this journey and request a refund from First Capital Connect
---/quote---

Not so much "ticket acceptance" as 'ticket non-acceptance', though it's
undoubtedly an "alternative travel route" though.

Wonder if this might all be the work of cable thievery? (Though on the busy
MML, in the middle of the day?)

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

"Neil Williams" wrote:

Actually, scratch that:-

"East Midlands Trains services can now run between London St Pancras
International and Luton / Bedford"

So they're going to be quite busy, then. Time to hire in some
locomotives and stock to ensure everything is 10-car?

That's almost suggestive of it being an OHLE power issue (EMT having diesel
traction of course) rather than a signalling issue - though I'd be wary of
jumping to that conclusion just yet - perhaps they've hashed the signalling
together enough to be able to run a service on the fast lines, who knows?

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

In message , at 15:17:28 on Fri, 11
Nov 2011, David Thornhill remarked:
I was interested in the alternatives:

Passengers may use:

East Coast services between London Kings Cross and Doncaster

FCC to Peterborough would help as well.

CrossCountry trains between Birmingham New Street and Leicester on some
services

But not Birmingham to Derby/Nottingham it seems. Or
Peterborough-Leicester.

Grand Central on all reasonable routes
London Midland on all reasonable routes
London Underground on all reasonable routes
Virgin Trains on all reasonable routes

And of course on other ex-CT EMT's I presume.

Perhaps I've missed it before, but having Grand Central accepting EMT
tickets is something I don't recall before.

Sheffield via York?
--
Roland Perry

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

"Mizter T" wrote:
[...]
That's almost suggestive of it being an OHLE power issue (EMT having
diesel traction of course) rather than a signalling issue - though I'd be
wary of jumping to that conclusion just yet - perhaps they've hashed the
signalling together enough to be able to run a service on the fast lines,
who knows?

Network Rail tweets:
"St Pancras: Power restored. Disruption continues, for which we are very
sorry. Service information: http://bit.ly/sT3zWK @EmTrains @FirstCC"
http://twitter.com/#!/networkrail/status/135025991801249793

The nature of the power failure is unspecified.

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 15:17:28 on Fri, 11
Nov 2011, David Thornhill remarked:

Perhaps I've missed it before, but having Grand Central accepting EMT
tickets is something I don't recall before.

Sheffield via York?

Presumably via Doncaster (on Bradford trains), though there may be
passengers with EMT + Connections tickets to stations north of Sheffield who
would be able to use GC beyond Doncaster.

Peter

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

I've just come though this one.

I got a text from a friend at just after 15:00, I was near Farringdon;
no time to properly check what FCC were saying; the gen I had was
similar to early posts nothing between WHP and StAlbans, and 90 min
delays between StPancras and Luton. I had no bus gen.

I got to Farringdon at 15:18, TL platforms barriered off but no
whiteboards out.

Experience tells me if something is running north of StAlbans by far
the best way is via Watford Junction even with the walk. This avoids
buses (for which queuing time can be substantial) and the subsequent
bus to train scrums wherever buses go to.

I made 15:35 Tring at Euston, which has no direct connect, 16:31 to
Snorbens Abbey, walk to Snorbens City, got there about 17:12, empty
8car 319 in DS platform, as walking down to find out what this was, it
seemed a couple of buses had arrived and announced train as all
stations Bedford. Probably we had 100 or so people on it thats all.
Dep 17:20 got to Luton 17:38.

In the circumstances not bad, could have been much much worse. And I
suspect it is for people still travelling.

I understand it is cable theft around Radlett (speculating: maybe the
junctions are affected ?), and also that other passengers had been
stranded at Snorbens since about 16:00 before the train I was on
departed.


No sign of any buses at Luton.

As those 319s arrived in Luton on DS a 222 on DF indicated Sheffield
arrived on DF - and Luton did a very very good move and held both
trains for each other with copious holding announcements and staff
dealing - there were numeorus passengers swapping both ways between th
2 trains. But I'll add this , the leading FCC person on duty in what
I'd at one time called the supervisors office was a long time exBR
man, one I've seen and spoken to at Luton many times over more than 20
years, he was coordinating the whole show by radio. Well done to him,
but I do wonder had it been one of the off the street fcc ones whether
they'd have worked it out.




--
Nick

I have heard via Facebook that announcements on the trains have stated someone has nicked "the track" and caused this.

Possible?

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

I've just come though this one.

I got a text from a friend at just after 15:00, I was near Farringdon;
no time to properly check what FCC were saying; the gen I had was
simialr to early posts nothing between WHP and StAlbans, and 90 min
delays between StPancras and Luton. I had no bus gen.

I got to Farringdon at 15:18, TL platforms barried off.

Experience tells me if something is running north of StAlbans by far
the best way is via Watford Junction even with the walk. Ths avoids
buses (for which queuing time can be substantial) and the subsequent
bus to train scrums wherver buses go to.

I made 15:35 Tring at Euston,






16:31 to St Albans, walk to City, about 17:12, 8car 319 at about
17:18 .

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

"D7666" wrote in message
...





I've just come though this one.

Snip

As those 319s arrived in Luton on DS a 222 on DF indicated Sheffield
arrived on DF - and Luton did a very very good move and held both
trains for each other with copious holding announcements and staff
dealing - there were numeorus passengers swapping both ways between th
2 trains. But I'll add this , the leading FCC person on duty in what
I'd at one time called the supervisors office was a long time exBR
man, one I've seen and spoken to at Luton many times over more than 20
years, he was coordinating the whole show by radio. Well done to him,
but I do wonder had it been one of the off the street fcc ones whether
they'd have worked it out.




--
Nick

Brings a lump to my throat reading that. I bet he was enjoying himself too

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

On Nov 11, 6:12*pm, D7666 wrote:


No sign of any buses at Luton.



Wandered by station to and from Sainsburys at 19:30 and 20:00 loads of
buses but none ding a lot ... possibly arrivals but no departures or
perhaps on standby, as a number of 319s trains seen.


--
Nick

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

On Nov 11, 6:13*pm, BumYoghurt
wrote:
I have heard via Facebook that announcements on the trains have stated
someone has nicked "the track" and caused this.

Possible?

Nonsense, stuff and piffle, or as I think we might start to say around
these parts, 'bum yoghurt'.

However I see others have a different definition for the
aforementioned phrase:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...m=Bum%20Yogurt

Though I suppose those with ludicrous nicknames shouldn't really throw
stones...

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

"BumYoghurt" wrote in message
...

I have heard via Facebook that announcements on the trains have stated
someone has nicked "the track" and caused this.

Cable theft affecting the _track circuits_, or the power supplies for the
same?

The 'track circuits' being key to train detection for the signalling system,
so cable theft as usual means massive delays...

Paul S

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

On Nov 11, 4:12*pm, "Mizter T" wrote:
"Neil Williams" wrote:
Actually, scratch that:-

"East Midlands Trains services can now run between London St Pancras
International and Luton / Bedford"

So they're going to be quite busy, then. *Time to hire in some
locomotives and stock to ensure everything is 10-car?

That's almost suggestive of it being an OHLE power issue (EMT having diesel
traction of course) rather than a signalling issue - though I'd be wary of
jumping to that conclusion just yet - perhaps they've hashed the signalling
together enough to be able to run a service on the fast lines, who knows?

At 13:00 or so today there was an EMT 222 stopped and idling at Mill
Hill Broadway on the Up Fast line with its doors open ... Not quite
believing my luck at EMT finally running a commuter service to Mill
Hill after all these years I went over to the station to have a look
and the reason became apparent - there wasn't a single lit signal
visible in either direction (and one should be able to see 6 signals
from there - two blocks to the north and one to the south).

At around 14:30 an HST rolled along the down fast at about 10 mph and
at around 16:00 a 222 went through on the down fast at near enough
line speed (there may well have been a few trains in-between when I
wasn't looking out of the office window...); as of 16:30, FCC were
still not running any trains through Mill Hill.

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

On Nov 11, 6:12*pm, D7666 wrote:


I understand it is cable theft around Radlett



Or around Hendon, depending on who you listen to, anyway an area
outage.

Apparently they lost signals, signals control, power to signals and
points, and traction SCADA; in the case of the latter power either
tripped or was turned off as a result.

Does sound like cable theft.

--
Nick

Ha! Told you!

I also heard that is the reason for the big Barnes signal failure on Tuesday.

When I went through Barnes yesterday, there were two cheeky looking chappies in fluorescent jackets climbing onto the tracks through a hole in a wire fence, near the works that are going on there. I wonder if there is a big organised cable theft going on at the moment?

Thameslink up the spout again - sig problem twixt Cricklewood and Radlett
 

On Nov 11, 2:36*pm, "Mizter T" wrote:

The ongoing unreliability of the Thameslink route is the stuff of legend,
which is a great shame as it's such a useful service when it works
properly


Indeed.

And I share your concerns.

As I'm sure most uk.railway contributors must be fed up of reading, I
am a Luton / London Thameslink commuter, and while 60-80% of my
journies do not go south of West Hampstead on Thameslink I still get
hot by core problems.

Fridays incident is perhaps not so typical of the many recent events,
rather one more in the range of what can happen on any line.

But it still had symptoms of one major major issue with the service
that GoVia did have and FCC seem to have exacerbated and NR certainly
has - and that is lack of resilience.

Not only has the TL Project eliminated Moorgate forever as a rat-run
escape route, there are turnback restrictions at City TL, a crossover
is permanently removed at Farringdon because of the 12car works, and
at present the bays at Blackfriars are not there.

If goes on - when the route has 12car trains, can't turn back at
StAlbans - yes the platforms can take 12 but the turnback siding is
still 8. Can't turnback [either way] even empty 12car at Kentish Town,
because not only is the (well known) issue of not extending to 12car
for service a limit but the signalling is laid out for 8car dead.
Blackfriars bays - when these are open are they 8car only ? AIUI some
or all of them yes, which again means no 12car turn back.

StPancras high level was ruled out years ago. In the normal weekday
service - even off peak - there is no platform space there. You can
turn back in low lvel between SPI and Farringdon, but this is slow,
allegedly they won't turn more than 4 TPH there, but I don;t know why
its quite that low, I reckon 6 TPH ought to be feasible, but I'd need
expert advice on that.

All this is very important, because there will be many more 12car
trains than 8car. On the north side once in the open air, the only
actual stations where you can turn 12car in service recovery will be
West Hampstead, Luton and Bedford.

Now the knee jerk argument to this is the service pattern at them
moment only goes to Luton and Bedford, and thats where the TOCs have
made things worse. There is no train crew resilience. They are unable
to do short turnbacks (even ignoring cancellation penalties for doing
so) because crews are in the wrong places.

They only have 3 depots - Bedford Blackfriars and Brighton.
Blackfriars !!! That NBG to anybody when the core is closed.

When the GN route is connected I see this getting worse. because what
will start to happen is something will go wrong and say a NB GN bound
train will be in the core with a GN-side TL driver, the junction fails
and there no driver to take in on the ML route. This WILL happen.
Youve then got a situation where 8 of 24 TPH have lost the route
through the source failire, and 16/24 screwed up becaus eone train has
no knowledge.

If I were running it I'd have all crew know all routes, throughout,
and have appropriate diagrams, but I know thats expensive. I certainly
expect all GN crew to know at least as Cricklewood to dump a train,
and all ML crews to know Hornsey ditto, and things like Brighton crews
to know SE routes if they happen to be on a SB that needs to be dumped
at (say) Orpington. But if you look at precedence - that dispute this
time 2 years ago was all about the parsimonouos way they were going
about crew training on 377s and lack of crews for KO0.

I've been to 4 public lecture on TL project, 2 given by senior NR
people, one to IET, and despite reading this stuff in detail, and
every other TLP paper, I understand the tekkie stuff about ATO and 24
TPH and all the rest - but I fail to see where any of this works with
the way the previous and current TOC run the service and the lack of
resilience.

--
Nick