TfL are very fond of telilng us that we can top up our cards online at
anytime. True, and great if you live on the tube.

Not so good if you don't.

Here's an idea for a workaround though, which simply involves
maintaining a prepay balance and a tweak to the system.

Let's say my oystercard expires and using the website I purchase a
Travelcard, to start on Monday.

On Monday morning I take a bus to my designated station, and the fare
for that journey is deducted from my prepay balance.

Upon arriving at my designated station, the Travelcard I purchased is
downloaded to my oystercard BUT the bus fare is also credited back to
my prepay balance, as I had already bought a ticket to cover it.

Could it work?

On 7 Jan 2004, Steph Davies wrote:

Here's an idea for a workaround though, which simply involves
maintaining a prepay balance and a tweak to the system.

Let's say my oystercard expires and using the website I purchase a
Travelcard, to start on Monday. On Monday morning I take a bus to my
designated station, and the fare for that journey is deducted from my
prepay balance. Upon arriving at my designated station, the Travelcard I
purchased is downloaded to my oystercard BUT the bus fare is also
credited back to my prepay balance, as I had already bought a ticket to
cover it.

Could it work?

I don't see why not.

Now, in the "Oyster at Finsbury Park" thread, Martin Rich said:

The really nice thing would be if Oyster could calculate, when the
season expires, whether it would have been cheaper simply to buy an
extra zone for the season, and charge me the cost of that extra zone...

Both of these suggestions are basically about an oyster which tracks your
usage, and then decides which ticket would have been cheapest (or in the
case of the Davies proposal, just goes with the ticket you asked for) and
issues it to you retrospectively. If this were done generally, it would be
rather good, and simple to use: you just travel, and get charged a monthly
(or whatever) direct debit. Essentially, a sort of pre-pay capping system
operating backwards in time.

I suppose the problem would be with people failing to pay their direct
debits; perhaps there could be some sort of substantial deposit to cover
that, which would be no worse than buying a ticket up-front today.

Also, you might find the problem was quite computationally complex if you
allowed the system to rewrite your ticket history arbitrarily; it might
sell you monthlies for ten months, and then decide that you would have
been better off with an annual, revoke the monthlies and issue one, refund
any difference (then ought to go back and see how much you'd have saved
through gold card discounts, but never mind), but if you travel for
another few months, it has to decide whether to issue an annual covering
the first year and a monthly covering the first month after, or a monthly
for the first month and an annual for the year after, taking in your
precise journey dates (so it can leave gaps between some tickets), and
more complex cases as there's a longer period to cover, plus variations in
prices over time, etc. Or perhaps if there are patches where you used
buses but not tubes, or tubes but not NR, it should cover them with a bus
pass or LT card.

Anyway, yes, basically, it would be nice if machines could do my thinking
for me.

tom

--
shouting drunkenly about 6502 assembler at parties

In message , Steph
Davies writes
TfL are very fond of telilng us that we can top up our cards online at
anytime. True, and great if you live on the tube.

Not so good if you don't.

Here's an idea for a workaround though, which simply involves
maintaining a prepay balance and a tweak to the system.

Let's say my oystercard expires and using the website I purchase a
Travelcard, to start on Monday.

On Monday morning I take a bus to my designated station, and the fare
for that journey is deducted from my prepay balance.

Upon arriving at my designated station, the Travelcard I purchased is
downloaded to my oystercard BUT the bus fare is also credited back to
my prepay balance, as I had already bought a ticket to cover it.

Could it work?

I think you'll have to wait to the spring to find out the answer to that
one but theoretically I suppose it should.
--
Kat Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no.

Tom Anderson wrote in message ...
On 7 Jan 2004, Steph Davies wrote:

Here's an idea for a workaround though, which simply involves
maintaining a prepay balance and a tweak to the system.

snip

Both of these suggestions are basically about an oyster which tracks your
usage, and then decides which ticket would have been cheapest (or in the
case of the Davies proposal, just goes with the ticket you asked for) and
issues it to you retrospectively. If this were done generally, it would be
rather good, and simple to use: you just travel, and get charged a monthly
(or whatever) direct debit. Essentially, a sort of pre-pay capping system
operating backwards in time.

I suppose the problem would be with people failing to pay their direct
debits; perhaps there could be some sort of substantial deposit to cover
that, which would be no worse than buying a ticket up-front today.

Also, you might find the problem was quite computationally complex if

another snip .....

Anyway, yes, basically, it would be nice if machines could do my thinking
for me.

Phone and utility companies have always billed their customers in this
way, often with built-in discounts or price caps calculated at the end
of the charging period. Some also offer a discount on the NEXT bill
if you pay promptly. I would prefer a 'post-pay' credit account
system of this type although I think it might well have to be
direct-debit only. Maybe one day (reliable vehicle detection
technology permitting) you could pay your congestion charges and
Oyster charges on the same TfL monthly 'travel' bill. Anyone failing
to pay their direct debit would simply have their card cancelled until
they cleared the debt - and lose any accrued discounts.

Reading through the spiralling number of Oyster related postings would I be
out of order in asking for a single cash-fare paper ticket next time I`m in
London....?

Alek wrote:
Reading through the spiralling number of Oyster related postings would I be
out of order in asking for a single cash-fare paper ticket next time I`m in
London....?


No, they're still easy enough... just more expensive on the tube (£2 vs
£1.60). Ditto the buses after March or whenever bus prepay comes into
effect.

Which brings me to a couple of questions. Firstly, on prepay, is the
full Z1-6 balance deducted from your card when you touch in and credited
back to the correct amount when you touch out, or does it just reject
your card at the exit gate if you have insufficient credit? Has anyone
tried this?

Secondly, why on earth are Carnets cheaper at £1.50/ticket than Oyster?
I thought TfL are meant to be encouraging Oyster. At the moment there is
no particular reason to persuade anyone to get prepay other than the
novelty - since Carnets are cheaper and prepay can't yet be used on buses?


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7

Dave Arquati wrote the following in:


Secondly, why on earth are Carnets cheaper at £1.50/ticket than
Oyster? I thought TfL are meant to be encouraging Oyster. At the
moment there is no particular reason to persuade anyone to get
prepay other than the novelty - since Carnets are cheaper and
prepay can't yet be used on buses?

Carnet is only valid in zone 1.

--
message by Robin May, or at least that's what the headers say.
Enjoy the Routemaster while you still can.

Crime is confusing.

On 7 Jan 2004, umpston wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote in message ...

On 7 Jan 2004, Steph Davies wrote:

an oyster which tracks your usage [...] you just travel, and get
charged a monthly (or whatever) direct debit.

Also, you might find the problem was quite computationally complex

Phone and utility companies have always billed their customers in this
way,

But they have much simpler ways of charging - standing charge plus x pence
per unit, perhaps with the rate falling if you use more. Travel tickets
are much more complicated. I suppose the right thing to do would be to
reform the fare structure to make it all work (eg a single is 2 pounds or
whatever, but if you buy lots in a month, it's cheaper; you'd have to work
it out so current travelcard holders didn't get charged huge amounts).

often with built-in discounts or price caps calculated at the end of the
charging period. Some also offer a discount on the NEXT bill if you pay
promptly.

All true, but still all much simpler than fares.

I would prefer a 'post-pay' credit account system of this type although
I think it might well have to be direct-debit only.

Really? Could it not be done like utility bills (ie you can pay by cheque
or at the post office if you like)?

Maybe one day (reliable vehicle detection technology permitting) you
could pay your congestion charges and Oyster charges on the same TfL
monthly 'travel' bill.

I like it! They could even just bung it on your council tax and have one
big London bill.

Anyone failing to pay their direct debit would simply have their card
cancelled until they cleared the debt - and lose any accrued discounts.

Ah, but what's to stop them getting another card? You'd need a new bank
account (else TfL could tell it was the same person), but you could still
do it. At least the utility companies have a wire or pipe going into your
house that they can actually turn off.

Tom

--
Destroy - kill all hippies.

In message , Dave Arquati
writes
Which brings me to a couple of questions. Firstly, on prepay, is the
full Z1-6 balance deducted from your card when you touch in and
credited back to the correct amount when you touch out, or does it just
reject your card at the exit gate if you have insufficient credit? Has
anyone tried this?

If you are in Zone 1 you must have at least £1.60 to enter the system
(£1.00 in other zones)
If you don't have more than the minimum for the zone and try to exit in
another zone, the exit gate will open but the POD will show Seek
Assistance and 24
You wouldn't be able to use the Oyster again until the Pre Pay had been
topped up and the debit cleared.

Secondly, why on earth are Carnets cheaper at £1.50/ticket than Oyster?
I thought TfL are meant to be encouraging Oyster. At the moment there
is no particular reason to persuade anyone to get prepay other than the
novelty - since Carnets are cheaper and prepay can't yet be used on
buses?

I don't know why either but it may be because you can't buy magnetic
tickets with Pre Pay as yet. When that comes in, maybe other things will
change too.
--
Kat Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no.

Robin May wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote the following in:



Secondly, why on earth are Carnets cheaper at £1.50/ticket than
Oyster? I thought TfL are meant to be encouraging Oyster. At the
moment there is no particular reason to persuade anyone to get
prepay other than the novelty - since Carnets are cheaper and
prepay can't yet be used on buses?


Carnet is only valid in zone 1.

Ah yes, that is true... but on the other hand the people I would be
persuading to get Oyster rarely make trips outside Zone 1.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7