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Wimbledon to London Bridge?
I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony
Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! Certainly there is no such service now, and while the route was *possible* (Wimbledon to Clapham Junction then onto the inner South London Line and thence to London Bridge via Peckham Rye) I can't see why it would exist, given that Wimbledon to Waterloo is so much shorter and quicker, and Waterloo is so close to London Bridge anyway. Does anyone have a Bradshaw and can check for me? -- David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity -- Hanlon's Razor Stupidity maintained long enough is a form of malice -- Richard Bos's corollary |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
On Fri, 09 Dec 2011 11:02:15 +0000
David Cantrell wrote: I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! Are you for real? B2003 |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
On Dec 9, 11:02*am, David Cantrell wrote:
I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. *He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. *I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? *I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! Certainly there is no such service now, and while the route was *possible* (Wimbledon to Clapham Junction then onto the inner South London Line and thence to London Bridge via Peckham Rye) I can't see why it would exist, given that Wimbledon to Waterloo is so much shorter and quicker, and Waterloo is so close to London Bridge anyway. Does anyone have a Bradshaw and can check for me? -- David Cantrell |http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity * * -- Hanlon's Razor Stupidity maintained long enough is a form of malice * * -- Richard Bos's corollary There is a service from Wimbledon to London Bridge, at least at weekends. The FCC service via the Sutton loop goes from Wimbledon to Haydons Road, Tooting, Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne Hill and thence to London Bridge. |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
In message , at 11:02:15
on Fri, 9 Dec 2011, David Cantrell remarked: I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! Certainly there is no such service now, and while the route was *possible* (Wimbledon to Clapham Junction then onto the inner South London Line and thence to London Bridge via Peckham Rye) I can't see why it would exist, given that Wimbledon to Waterloo is so much shorter and quicker, and Waterloo is so close to London Bridge anyway. Wimbledon to Blackfriars exists, via Tulse Hill (it used to terminate at Holborn Viaduct). I don't see why there might not have been a similar service going via Peckham Rye to LB. Or even a loop train via Sutton and Croydon. -- Roland Perry |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
[Cross-posted to uk.railway, where answers may lie...]
"David Cantrell" wrote: I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! Certainly there is no such service now, and while the route was *possible* (Wimbledon to Clapham Junction then onto the inner South London Line and thence to London Bridge via Peckham Rye) I can't see why it would exist, given that Wimbledon to Waterloo is so much shorter and quicker, and Waterloo is so close to London Bridge anyway. Does anyone have a Bradshaw and can check for me? |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
On 09/12/2011 12:17, Mizter T wrote:
[Cross-posted to uk.railway, where answers may lie...] "David Cantrell" wrote: I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! I don't know about 1890, but in the 1960s when I lived in Wimbledon there certainly was a service to Holborn Viaduct which called at London Bridge and Blackfriars - this was before the 'Thameslink' service was developed, of course. Charlie |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
On Dec 9, 11:02*am, David Cantrell wrote:
I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. *He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. *I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? *I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! Certainly there is no such service now, and while the route was *possible* (Wimbledon to Clapham Junction then onto the inner South London Line and thence to London Bridge via Peckham Rye) I can't see why it would exist, given that Wimbledon to Waterloo is so much shorter and quicker, and Waterloo is so close to London Bridge anyway. Does anyone have a Bradshaw and can check for me? -- David Cantrell |http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity * * -- Hanlon's Razor Stupidity maintained long enough is a form of malice * * -- Richard Bos's corollary I don't know about 1890, but in the April 1910 Bradshaw there is a regular service from London Bridge to Wimbledon (about one an hour) by the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway. The route is the current (weekend) one, via Tulse Hill and Streatham. Some trains go on to Sutton and Epsom (via Mitcham Junction - the current (Thameslink) line wasn't open then). -- Peter |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
"David Cantrell" wrote in message k... I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! National newspaper reviews of the book have been excellent, including The Guardian, which said "So, all of the elements are the the data, the data, the data. Nothing of consequence overlooked. And yet can Horowitz, like Holmes, make from these drops of water the possibilities of an Atlantic or a Niagara? Can he astonish us? Can he thrill us? Are there "the rapid deductions, as swift as intuitions, and yet always founded on a logical basis" that we yearn for? Emphatically, yes." Not sure in which publication(s) your review will appear, David, but I share, in the context of the entire novel, the nationals' lack of concern for the minutiae of 1890s rail travel! Ian |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
"Charlie Hulme" wrote in message ... On 09/12/2011 12:17, Mizter T wrote: [Cross-posted to uk.railway, where answers may lie...] "David Cantrell" wrote: I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! I don't know about 1890, but in the 1960s when I lived in Wimbledon there certainly was a service to Holborn Viaduct which called at London Bridge and Blackfriars - this was before the 'Thameslink' service was developed, of course. I doubt it. After the July 1967 SR timetable revision there certainly was a service that connected Wimbledon with London Bridge, Blackfriars and Holborn Viaduct, but the routing was London Bridge - Forest Hill - West Croydon - Sutton - Wimbledon - Tooting - Tulse Hill - Herne Hill - Blackfriars - Holborn Viaduct. This would not have been possible in 1890, as the Wimbledon - Sutton line didn't open until 1930. Before Thameslink there were very few passenger trains which used the spur from London Bridge to Blackfriars, typically in the 1960s only the 0417 Orpington to Holborn Viaduct, the 0100 Holborn Viaduct to Orpington, and at one time the 0255 Holborn Viaduct to Ramsgate Passenger and News. However, as to the OP's question, the answer is quite possibly. In 1904 there was a 6.15 pm from London Bridge to Wimbledon via Peckham Rye, Tulse Hill and Tooting. The lione from Streatham Junction to Wimbledon (both the current route via Haydons Road and the abandoned route via Merton Abbey) was the joint property of the LBSCR and LSWR. Peter |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
Paul wrote on 09 December 2011 11:26:53 ...
On Dec 9, 11:02 am, David wrote: I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! Certainly there is no such service now, and while the route was *possible* (Wimbledon to Clapham Junction then onto the inner South London Line and thence to London Bridge via Peckham Rye) I can't see why it would exist, given that Wimbledon to Waterloo is so much shorter and quicker, and Waterloo is so close to London Bridge anyway. Does anyone have a Bradshaw and can check for me? There is a service from Wimbledon to London Bridge, at least at weekends. The FCC service via the Sutton loop goes from Wimbledon to Haydons Road, Tooting, Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne Hill and thence to London Bridge. There is no direct route from Herne Hill northbound to London Bridge. You mean Wimbledon, ..., Tulse Hill and thence to London Bridge. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
On 09/12/2011 16:18, Peter Masson wrote:
[I said] I don't know about 1890, but in the 1960s when I lived in Wimbledon there certainly was a service to Holborn Viaduct which called at London Bridge and Blackfriars - this was before the 'Thameslink' service was developed, of course. I doubt it. After the July 1967 SR timetable revision there certainly was a service that connected Wimbledon with London Bridge, Blackfriars and Holborn Viaduct, but the routing was London Bridge - Forest Hill - West Croydon - Sutton - Wimbledon - Tooting - Tulse Hill - Herne Hill - Blackfriars - Holborn Viaduct. This would not have been possible in 1890, as the Wimbledon - Sutton line didn't open until 1930. So one could travel direct from London Bridge but not to it? I'm not clear what you're doubting, although I'm sure you are right as I'm working from distant memory. You are of course right about the Wimbledon - Sutton line being of late date. I arrived in Wimbledon in September 1967, I didn't realise that I was seeing a new service pattern, although I did discover I'd missed the last steam trains by just a few months. Charlie Charlie |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
"Charlie Hulme" wrote in message ... On 09/12/2011 16:18, Peter Masson wrote: [I said] I don't know about 1890, but in the 1960s when I lived in Wimbledon there certainly was a service to Holborn Viaduct which called at London Bridge and Blackfriars - this was before the 'Thameslink' service was developed, of course. I doubt it. After the July 1967 SR timetable revision there certainly was a service that connected Wimbledon with London Bridge, Blackfriars and Holborn Viaduct, but the routing was London Bridge - Forest Hill - West Croydon - Sutton - Wimbledon - Tooting - Tulse Hill - Herne Hill - Blackfriars - Holborn Viaduct. This would not have been possible in 1890, as the Wimbledon - Sutton line didn't open until 1930. So one could travel direct from London Bridge but not to it? I'm not clear what you're doubting, although I'm sure you are right as I'm working from distant memory. You are of course right about the Wimbledon - Sutton line being of late date. I arrived in Wimbledon in September 1967, I didn't realise that I was seeing a new service pattern, although I did discover I'd missed the last steam trains by just a few months. Charlie Charlie I'm sure I worked London Bridge to London Bridge via Tulse Hill, Wimbledon, Sutton and Forest Hill in 1980, seems a long time ago now. |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
On Dec 9, 11:02*am, David Cantrell wrote:
I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. *He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. *I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? *I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! Certainly there is no such service now, and while the route was *possible* (Wimbledon to Clapham Junction then onto the inner South London Line and thence to London Bridge via Peckham Rye) I can't see why it would exist, given that Wimbledon to Waterloo is so much shorter and quicker, and Waterloo is so close to London Bridge anyway. Certainly there is a Wimbledon to London Bridge service now, via Tulse Hill. Not many though, the ones I've found a Southbound: 0600, 0630, 0658, 0729, 0806, 1706, 1737, 1808 Northbound: 0632, 0702, 0731, 0802 Doesn't seem to be any northbounds in the evening, and the southbound takes an hour compared to the northbound's half hour because it goes around the Sutton loop. (They start / terminate at Wimbledon) Half an hour isn't probably much different to train to Waterloo and tube or walk to London Bridge. |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
On Dec 9, 12:30*pm, Charlie Hulme
wrote: On 09/12/2011 12:17, Mizter T wrote: [Cross-posted to uk.railway, where answers may lie...] "David Cantrell" wrote: I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! I don't know about 1890, but in the 1960s when I lived in Wimbledon there certainly was a service to Holborn Viaduct which called at London Bridge and Blackfriars - this was before the 'Thameslink' service was developed, of course. Charlie I have a facsimile LSWR timetable from 1914; this shows a regular service from Ludgate Hill/St Paul's (now Blackfriars) to Wimbledon plus a frequent rail motor service between Streatham and Wimbledon; did any of these run through to London Bridge? The Streatham - Wimbledon line (including the Merton Abbey loop) was jointly owned by the LSWR and LBSCR, opening in 1868, so in theory a train service could have run from London Bridge to Wimbledon. I do not know if the LSWR timetable shows all services over the line, so there may have been additional LBSCR services outwith the joint running agreement that are not shown. |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
"Charlie Hulme" wrote So one could travel direct from London Bridge but not to it? I'm not clear what you're doubting, although I'm sure you are right as I'm working from distant memory. You are of course right about the Wimbledon - Sutton line being of late date. You could get a through train in either direction between London Bridge and Wimbledon in 1967, but it would go via West Croydon and Sutton. Currently there are a few contra-peak direct trains between London Bridge and Wimbledon via Peckham Rye, Tulse Hill and Tooting. Peter |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
"Pat O'Neill" wrote in message
... I'm sure I worked London Bridge to London Bridge via Tulse Hill, Wimbledon, Sutton and Forest Hill in 1980, seems a long time ago now. I'm sure that's right, but I'm not sure about the Forest Hill bit. I lived in Tooting from 1980 to 1982. The standard off-peak service was London Bridge-Peckham Rye-Tulse Hill-Streatham-Tooting-Wimbledon-Sutton-Mitcham Junction-Streatham, then London Bridge via Peckham Rye again. In practice they were advertised to Sutton IIRC. Stock was 4-SUB. However, in the peaks they dived off down the 1 in 66 from Tulse Hill to Herne Hill for Blackfriars and Holborn Viaduct. Herne Hill was always entertaining because you had to cross the Boat Train Route on the level, which meant fancy footwork by the signaller. With luck you'd get a 12-car + MLV coming through. Those MLVs always seemed to pack quite a punch. Regards Jonathan |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
"Jonathan Morton" wrote in message ... "Pat O'Neill" wrote in message ... I'm sure I worked London Bridge to London Bridge via Tulse Hill, Wimbledon, Sutton and Forest Hill in 1980, seems a long time ago now. I'm sure that's right, but I'm not sure about the Forest Hill bit. I lived in Tooting from 1980 to 1982. The standard off-peak service was London Bridge-Peckham Rye-Tulse Hill-Streatham-Tooting-Wimbledon-Sutton-Mitcham Junction-Streatham, then London Bridge via Peckham Rye again. In practice they were advertised to Sutton IIRC. Stock was 4-SUB. However, in the peaks they dived off down the 1 in 66 from Tulse Hill to Herne Hill for Blackfriars and Holborn Viaduct. Herne Hill was always entertaining because you had to cross the Boat Train Route on the level, which meant fancy footwork by the signaller. With luck you'd get a 12-car + MLV coming through. Those MLVs always seemed to pack quite a punch. Regards Jonathan Quite a few scenarios for LB to LB rounders I had to learn quite a few. |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
Once upon a time, Pat O'Neill wrote:
I'm sure I worked London Bridge to London Bridge via Tulse Hill, Wimbledon, Sutton and Forest Hill in 1980, seems a long time ago now. I managed to read that as that you'd worked that way in 1890, which was indeed a very long time ago! Vampires of uk.railway? :) -- - The Iron Jelloid |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
"The Iron Jelloid" wrote in message ... Once upon a time, Pat O'Neill wrote: I'm sure I worked London Bridge to London Bridge via Tulse Hill, Wimbledon, Sutton and Forest Hill in 1980, seems a long time ago now. I managed to read that as that you'd worked that way in 1890, which was indeed a very long time ago! Vampires of uk.railway? :) -- - The Iron Jelloid That's just a rumour I've been at Purley Loco since it was built in 1898. |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
On Fri, 9 Dec 2011, Ian F. wrote:
"David Cantrell" wrote in message k... I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! National newspaper reviews of the book have been excellent, including The Guardian, which said "So, all of the elements are the the data, the data, the data. Nothing of consequence overlooked. And yet can Horowitz, like Holmes, make from these drops of water the possibilities of an Atlantic or a Niagara? Can he astonish us? Can he thrill us? Are there "the rapid deductions, as swift as intuitions, and yet always founded on a logical basis" that we yearn for? Emphatically, yes." Not sure in which publication(s) your review will appear, David, but I share, in the context of the entire novel, the nationals' lack of concern for the minutiae of 1890s rail travel! You have only to glance at a page of any of the newspapers in this country to see their utter contempt for facts. It almost seems to be a matter of pride. Mr Cantrell does not share this vice. tom -- I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born. -- Mark Twain |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
On Fri, Dec 09, 2011 at 01:52:50PM -0000, Ian F. wrote:
"David Cantrell" wrote in message k... I'm reading the new Sherlock Holmes story "The House of Silk" by Anthony Horowitz, and I'm very much afraid that he hasn't done his homework properly. He mentions a train service from Wimbledon to London Bridge in November 1890. I very much doubt that such a service existed, am I right? I'd like to check my facts before mentioning it in my book review! National newspaper reviews of the book have been excellent As will mine be, I think. Not sure in which publication(s) your review will appear, David, but I share, in the context of the entire novel, the nationals' lack of concern for the minutiae of 1890s rail travel! Oh indeed, it's a tiny trivial thing, but it's quite early on in the book and the possibility of it being hopelessly anachronistic alarmed me. But anyway, it looks like he *did* do his homework - or at least, even if no-one has come up with an 1890 timetable, there have been enough such services over the years that it's not worth worrying about. -- David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist There are two kinds of security, the one that keeps your sister out, the one that keeps the government out and the one that keeps Bruce Schneier out. |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
It's been a few years.
I know that Horowitz is famous for his research and my belief when this thread was started was that he chose Wimbledon to London Bridge specifically because it was a lesser-known route. Was it a regular route in the 1890s? |
Wimbledon to London Bridge?
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Wimbledon to London Bridge?
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Wimbledon to London Bridge?
On 23/06/2014 14:47, TiaMariaJim wrote:
In article , says... It's been a few years. I know that Horowitz is famous for his research and my belief when this thread was started was that he chose Wimbledon to London Bridge specifically because it was a lesser-known route. Was it a regular route in the 1890s? The Breadshaw reprint for August 1887 shows a regular service via Tooting, Tulse Hill and Peckham Rye. These include journeys via Hayden's Lane and via Merton Abbey. TMJ The Tooting, Merton & Wimbledon Railway & the reason that Tooting was called Tootin Junction. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
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