d wrote:

But bendy buses weren't restricted to cental london. Some routes went
out
into the burbs where you'll find a lot of HGVs. So what was the
rationale
in getting rid of them from there?

Because a bus primarily designed for fast rapid trips at airports and in
city centres is not automatically suitable for longer journeys across the
suburbs. The bendies had an official capacity (as printed on the signs by

Who said it was only designed for rapid trips and city centres? Because
the
standing to seating ratio is high? So what, its high in plenty of metro
trains
too.

Metro trains tend to be faster and/or have a turnover such that it's easier
for the longer distance traveller to get a seat for at least some of the
journey.

the driver's cab) that was about 50% more than they could hold in
practice,
and they had limited seats and space to safely store the likes of
supermarket shopping. When you have long journeys seats are invariably
more

And you think in a double decker there is space to store shopping? Where?

Speaking personally I find it much easier to store the bags on myself and
the foot area on a seat on a doubledecker then carrying them in the crush
crowded vestibule of the bendy. Even when standing on a double decker the
passenger flow is such that in most areas you don't get the crushed from all
sides that you do on bedies.

desirable than a bus rampacked with standing room only crush crowded
because
the route has had its de facto capacity cut despite official figures
saying
it is sufficient. Furthermore the "free bus" aspect was particular
disliked

Standing is better than no bus at all. The number of times I've seen
packed
double deckers that couldn't let anymore people on I've lost count of.

I've seen them too. I've also seen the phenomenon far more often with
bendies.

And
if you think standing in a bendy bus is bad trying standing on the
staircase
of a double decker with a driver who thinks he's Schumacher.

Par the course if you try standing there for the long run.

because many passengers felt it brought extra problems to the route - and
it
was hard to persuade people the bendies weren't "free" when ticket checks
were rare, especially outside zone 1, and a person who didn't mind the
stigma of being occasionally fined would be significantly better off
because
the fines never approached regular usage (plus with readers spread across
the bus one could always tap their Oyster onto one if they did get wind of
an inspection).

Irrelevant. Thats an issue with inspection , it has nothing to do with the
bus.

On the contrary it was one of the main reasons the buses failed to catch
people's affections. The limited number of inspections and, even more so,
their limited geographic concentration meant that both customers and fare
dodgers came away with the impression that it was a free bus, and that this
was contributing to its crush crowding, especially when compared to
doubledeckers that ran in parrallel for part of the route, and the high
number of undesirable incidents on it.

Using that logic you should close the whole of the DLR since it has
very few physical ticket barriers and the train captains rarely inspect
everyones tickets in rush hour.

DLR is a little too freely open I'll admit but ticket inspections on there
are far more frequent than they were on bendies, plus the Oyster
arrangements are critically different - you can't verify on the vehicle
itself and you have to touch at both ends to avoid being overcharged, and
can't be certain you won't run into a check at either end or onboard. But
the critical factor is less the level of open accessibility of the system
itself than whether there are perceived problems consequential to that level
of open accessibility.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:40:07 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
Metro trains tend to be faster and/or have a turnover such that it's easier
for the longer distance traveller to get a seat for at least some of the
journey.

When I communted by tube I usually ended up standing for 30-40 mins.

crowded vestibule of the bendy. Even when standing on a double decker the
passenger flow is such that in most areas you don't get the crushed from all
sides that you do on bedies.

All I ever see on a crowded double decker when it reaches a stop is
"excuse me" , "can I get past" , "excuse me". People falling down the
stairs, people having to get off so others can get off then fight their
way back on again. The double decker is completely unsuited to frequent
stopping routes as used in cities and its about time this country got over
its nostalgic love affair with this **** poor design of vehicle and woke up
to the reality of bus travel.

Irrelevant. Thats an issue with inspection , it has nothing to do with the
bus.

On the contrary it was one of the main reasons the buses failed to catch
people's affections. The limited number of inspections and, even more so,

So are you seriously suggesting that the people travelling on bendies didn't
like them because others fare dodged? And when did bus passengers get polled
about which bus they prefered in the first place?

doubledeckers that ran in parrallel for part of the route, and the high
number of undesirable incidents on it.

Such as? I never saw youths hanging around at the back of bendies causing
trouble as I have done many MANY times on the top deck of a double decker.

can't be certain you won't run into a check at either end or onboard. But
the critical factor is less the level of open accessibility of the system
itself than whether there are perceived problems consequential to that level
of open accessibility.

Perception has nothing to do with it when you actually use a system. Its how
well it gets you from A to B that matters and the bendies did that perfectly.
In fact they were probably one of the few good ideas Livingstone ever had.

B2003

On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 01:31:29PM +0000, d wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 12:18:44 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 12:10:25PM +0000, d wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:13:46 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
Our bendy bus driver is waiting at the lights, they turn green, but
there isn't enough room in his desired direction for him to clear the
junction. So he waits. By the time the lights turn red there was
*some* room, but not enough, so he goes nowhere. Then the lights go
green in the other direction, and what space had formed gets filled with
other vehicles. Such as a normal bus, perhaps. Repeat ad infinitum.
Makes you wonder how any of the thousands of HGVs all over the country ever
make any progress doesn't it.
You may have noticed that very few of the biggest ones go into central
London.
But bendy buses weren't restricted to cental london. Some routes went out
into the burbs where you'll find a lot of HGVs. So what was the rationale
in getting rid of them from there?

Getting rid of them makes less sense there, unless the route goes from
suburbia to the centre.

--
David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt

d wrote:

crowded vestibule of the bendy. Even when standing on a double decker the
passenger flow is such that in most areas you don't get the crushed from
all
sides that you do on bedies.

All I ever see on a crowded double decker when it reaches a stop is
"excuse me" , "can I get past" , "excuse me". People falling down the
stairs, people having to get off so others can get off then fight their
way back on again.

With the exception of the stairs I saw all that to a much greater extent on
the bendies.

The double decker is completely unsuited to frequent
stopping routes as used in cities and its about time this country got over
its nostalgic love affair with this **** poor design of vehicle and woke
up
to the reality of bus travel.

You can dismiss people who prefer double deckers as nostalgic all you like
but it is grossly inaccurate. They prefer the double deckers because they
prefer its features and advantages over the bendies.

Irrelevant. Thats an issue with inspection , it has nothing to do with
the
bus.

On the contrary it was one of the main reasons the buses failed to catch
people's affections. The limited number of inspections and, even more so,

So are you seriously suggesting that the people travelling on bendies
didn't
like them because others fare dodged?

Well nobody likes the idea of others getting a free ride at their own
expense but the substantial issue was people believed the free bus was
responsible for other problems on them, particularly the ram pack crowding
and some of the incidents.

And when did bus passengers get polled
about which bus they prefered in the first place?

Well the nearest I'm aware of was 1/5/08:

http://adf.ly/4q4fS

Okay that was about than bendy buses but it is the key poll point.

doubledeckers that ran in parrallel for part of the route, and the high
number of undesirable incidents on it.

Such as? I never saw youths hanging around at the back of bendies causing
trouble as I have done many MANY times on the top deck of a double decker.

You clearly were not looking at the back of the same bendies that I was
looking at.

can't be certain you won't run into a check at either end or onboard. But
the critical factor is less the level of open accessibility of the system
itself than whether there are perceived problems consequential to that
level
of open accessibility.

Perception has nothing to do with it when you actually use a system. Its
how
well it gets you from A to B that matters and the bendies did that
perfectly.

Perception has a lot to do with it when the buses become a political potato.
It also plays a real part in influencing users and their concerns.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:38:33 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
All I ever see on a crowded double decker when it reaches a stop is
"excuse me" , "can I get past" , "excuse me". People falling down the
stairs, people having to get off so others can get off then fight their
way back on again.

With the exception of the stairs I saw all that to a much greater extent on
the bendies.

I fail to see how it would be harder to get off a bus with 3 large exit doors
than one with 1 small exit door (the front one is entrance only on DDs).

You can dismiss people who prefer double deckers as nostalgic all you like
but it is grossly inaccurate. They prefer the double deckers because they
prefer its features and advantages over the bendies.

Please list them. The only one I can think of is for people who like a nice
view from the top deck. Well I'm sorry, but thats hardly a good reason.

Well nobody likes the idea of others getting a free ride at their own

In the rush hour I doubt many people cared.

expense but the substantial issue was people believed the free bus was
responsible for other problems on them, particularly the ram pack crowding
and some of the incidents.

So because they were popular and carried a lot of people thats a bad thing?
Sorry, I must be missing the logic of your argument.

Perception has a lot to do with it when the buses become a political potato.

It was only ever a political issue in Boris's mind. I doubt it would even
have made the top 10 of any voters pressing concerns.

B2003

d wrote:

All I ever see on a crowded double decker when it reaches a stop is
"excuse me" , "can I get past" , "excuse me". People falling down the
stairs, people having to get off so others can get off then fight their
way back on again.

With the exception of the stairs I saw all that to a much greater extent
on
the bendies.

I fail to see how it would be harder to get off a bus with 3 large exit
doors
than one with 1 small exit door (the front one is entrance only on DDs).

Because the bendy vestibles were far more packed and had people trying to
move in all directions.

You can dismiss people who prefer double deckers as nostalgic all you like
but it is grossly inaccurate. They prefer the double deckers because they
prefer its features and advantages over the bendies.

Please list them. The only one I can think of is for people who like a
nice
view from the top deck. Well I'm sorry, but thats hardly a good reason.

A more realistic official capacity.
More seats.
A clearer passenger flow.
A requirement to show tickets before boarding.
Less ram packed.

Just for starters and that's even before we get to the issue of how much
road space they took up.

Well nobody likes the idea of others getting a free ride at their own

In the rush hour I doubt many people cared.

expense but the substantial issue was people believed the free bus was
responsible for other problems on them, particularly the ram pack crowding
and some of the incidents.

So because they were popular and carried a lot of people thats a bad
thing?
Sorry, I must be missing the logic of your argument.

For the final time the point is people believed that because they were free
buses they attacted far more passengers than if they had to be paid for -
particularly attracting a lot of people for short hops who would otherwise
have walked. The comparison on sections where a bendy and a double decker
overlapped was quite telling at the time. Hence it was associated with the
ram packed crushed crowd effect.

Perception has a lot to do with it when the buses become a political
potato.

It was only ever a political issue in Boris's mind. I doubt it would even
have made the top 10 of any voters pressing concerns.

It came up in canvass returns, both in specific questions about individual
policies and the more general "what are the pressing issues" either
standalone or "...in the following [policy] areas".

All that said, I think Boris was elected for other reasons as well,
particularly Lee Jasper.

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:41:47 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:

I fail to see how it would be harder to get off a bus with 3 large exit
doors
than one with 1 small exit door (the front one is entrance only on DDs).

Because the bendy vestibles were far more packed and had people trying to
move in all directions.

They were more packed because you could get more people on them.

Please list them. The only one I can think of is for people who like a
nice
view from the top deck. Well I'm sorry, but thats hardly a good reason.

A more realistic official capacity.

Which is still less than a bendy.

More seats.

True, but not that important for short journeys.

A clearer passenger flow.

A more difficult passenger flow you mean. Once the gangway from driver
to rear door is blocked with standees its a bugger to get on and the bus
sits at the stop for ages blocking traffic.

Just for starters and that's even before we get to the issue of how much
road space they took up.

And how much roadspace would 2 double deckers with the same capacity as 1
bendy take up?

Sorry, I must be missing the logic of your argument.

For the final time the point is people believed that because they were free
buses they attacted far more passengers than if they had to be paid for -

For the final time - no one bloody cares! Do you honestly think people look
around at fellow passengers wondering if they've paid the fare? And are you
seriously suggesting that in each bus there were dozens of fare dodgers who
would otherwise have walked?? Get real.

All that said, I think Boris was elected for other reasons as well,
particularly Lee Jasper.

Well quite.

B2003

d wrote:

I fail to see how it would be harder to get off a bus with 3 large exit
doors
than one with 1 small exit door (the front one is entrance only on DDs).

Because the bendy vestibles were far more packed and had people trying to
move in all directions.

They were more packed because you could get more people on them.

They were more packed because of a higher use, in part because of the free
bus aspect discussed below, and because overall there was less capacity on
the route.

Please list them. The only one I can think of is for people who like a
nice
view from the top deck. Well I'm sorry, but thats hardly a good reason.

A more realistic official capacity.

Which is still less than a bendy.

Yes but the ratio of changeover wasn't 1:1.

More seats.

True, but not that important for short journeys.

There were lots of long journeys made on them - my local route had bendies
running from Bond Street to Ilford.

A clearer passenger flow.

A more difficult passenger flow you mean. Once the gangway from driver
to rear door is blocked with standees its a bugger to get on and the bus
sits at the stop for ages blocking traffic.

Just for starters and that's even before we get to the issue of how much
road space they took up.

And how much roadspace would 2 double deckers with the same capacity as 1
bendy take up?

You would not get the two flowing together as a single unit, serving as one
very lengthy obstacle that blocks and neds to be overcome.

Sorry, I must be missing the logic of your argument.

For the final time the point is people believed that because they were
free
buses they attacted far more passengers than if they had to be paid for -

For the final time - no one bloody cares! Do you honestly think people
look
around at fellow passengers wondering if they've paid the fare?

It was quite a common comment by many that they assumed that, albeit usually
only stated once they were off the buses.

And are you
seriously suggesting that in each bus there were dozens of fare dodgers
who
would otherwise have walked?? Get real.

Well how do you explain the preference of many very short hoppers around
Stratford and the Romford Road for the bendy 25 over the doubl decker 86? Or
the more bearable loadings on the 25 now it's a double decker?

W don't know for sure how much fare dodging there was because ticket
inspections in that neck of the woods were so rare.

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:17:57 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
For the final time - no one bloody cares! Do you honestly think people
look
around at fellow passengers wondering if they've paid the fare?

It was quite a common comment by many that they assumed that, albeit usually
only stated once they were off the buses.

Hmm , I wonder. And did it stop them using the bus? It seems not.

And are you
seriously suggesting that in each bus there were dozens of fare dodgers
who
would otherwise have walked?? Get real.

Well how do you explain the preference of many very short hoppers around
Stratford and the Romford Road for the bendy 25 over the doubl decker 86? Or

Probably because people prefered getting on a bendy bus instead of struggling
onto a double decker especially if they had shopping or kids or had trouble
walking. If you're not that mobile then getting up the stairs on a moving
bus isn't much fun.

the more bearable loadings on the 25 now it's a double decker?

How many more double deckers compared to bendies are they running on that
route?

W don't know for sure how much fare dodging there was because ticket
inspections in that neck of the woods were so rare.

As I've said, thats an administration issue, its not a fault of the bus
design. With a 17 year high in unemployment they can hardly claim that they
can't find the staff.

B2003

d wrote:

For the final time - no one bloody cares! Do you honestly think people
look
around at fellow passengers wondering if they've paid the fare?

It was quite a common comment by many that they assumed that, albeit
usually
only stated once they were off the buses.

Hmm , I wonder. And did it stop them using the bus? It seems not.

In most cases they had no choice.

And are you
seriously suggesting that in each bus there were dozens of fare dodgers
who
would otherwise have walked?? Get real.

Well how do you explain the preference of many very short hoppers around
Stratford and the Romford Road for the bendy 25 over the doubl decker 86?
Or

Probably because people prefered getting on a bendy bus instead of
struggling
onto a double decker especially if they had shopping or kids or had
trouble
walking. If you're not that mobile then getting up the stairs on a moving
bus isn't much fun.

They did not have shopping or kids (not that you'd want to take significant
amounts of shopping on a ram packed bendy like the 25 was). They were just
taking advantage of the free bus for a few stops.

the more bearable loadings on the 25 now it's a double decker?

How many more double deckers compared to bendies are they running on that
route?

I don't have the statistic to hand, but it's a not a 1:1 conversion ratio.

And here's one for you - if the bendies were so fantastic and the double
deckers clearly so outdated why weren't there bendies on more routes?