Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16091997

Interestingly, the BBC article gives the impression that all bendy
buses are being replaced by the Borismaster.

"...But Transport for All, which speaks for older and disabled
transport users, said TfL was "nuts" to scrap the vehicles, especially
as their new Routemaster-style replacements had only "a tiny
wheelchair space..."

The fact that none of the bendy bus routes are being replaced by the
Borismaster seems to have escaped the BBC. But then we all know that
the BBC are always accurate in their reporting, don't we?

The article goes on to mention the conflict between wheelchair users
and buggy users who will not fold a buggy and/or move to make space
for a wheelchair user. This is a problem whatever type of bus you
use, and there is no easy answer.

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

The article goes on to mention the conflict between wheelchair users
and buggy users who will not fold a buggy

Are there still buggies which fold? The ones I have to try to get past
on buses seem to be as foldable as a Landrover - and build to handle the
same range of terrains.
--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 03:36:03 -0800 (PST)
Paul wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16091997

Interestingly, the BBC article gives the impression that all bendy
buses are being replaced by the Borismaster.

"...But Transport for All, which speaks for older and disabled
transport users, said TfL was "nuts" to scrap the vehicles, especially
as their new Routemaster-style replacements had only "a tiny

TfL didn't have a choice in the matter, they do what Berty "Boris" Wooster
tells them. Dumping these buses is one of the worst examples of political
dogma over common sense I've seen in recent years. As for Boris's fatuous
reason of fare dodging - isn't he putting conductors in his new buses for
exactly the same reason? Why couldn't he have put them in the bendy buses?

B2003

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

"Robin" wrote:
The article goes on to mention the conflict between wheelchair users
and buggy users who will not fold a buggy

Are there still buggies which fold? The ones I have to try to get past on
buses seem to be as foldable as a Landrover - and build to handle the same
range of terrains.

Yes, they're still around - they're great, kick the child out of the buggy,
kick the buggy and voila, you're good to go. What needs to happen is for
them to become all the rage - perhaps it could begin as a kind of
retro-trend.

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On 09/12/2011 11:36, Paul wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16091997

Interestingly, the BBC article gives the impression that all bendy
buses are being replaced by the Borismaster.

"...But Transport for All, which speaks for older and disabled
transport users, said TfL was "nuts" to scrap the vehicles, especially
as their new Routemaster-style replacements had only "a tiny
wheelchair space..."

The fact that none of the bendy bus routes are being replaced by the
Borismaster seems to have escaped the BBC. But then we all know that
the BBC are always accurate in their reporting, don't we?

Is "Transport for All" part of the BBC? Or are you saying the BBC is
wrong in claiming that TfA said it?


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

In message
s.com of Fri, 9 Dec 2011 03:36:03 in uk.transport.london, Paul
writes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16091997


[snip]

The article goes on to mention the conflict between wheelchair users
and buggy users who will not fold a buggy and/or move to make space
for a wheelchair user. This is a problem whatever type of bus you
use, and there is no easy answer.


I suggest that drivers should be required, as now, to ask passengers
with unfolded buggies to fold them. The change I would make is that
drivers should be instructed on a refusal/inability, to issue a transfer
ticket for a following service. The problem is that many buggies are
used to carry a week's shopping as well as a child.

I would have the "Conditions of Carriage" take a tougher line with non-
priority wheelchair space users.

"13.2.3. Wheelchair users have priority over everyone else for use of
the wheelchair space, since this is the only place in which they can
travel safely. If someone in a wheelchair wishes to board, and the
wheelchair space is occupied by standing passengers or buggies, standing
passengers will be asked by the driver to make room if possible, and
buggy users will be asked to fold them and put them in the luggage space
or keep them by their side.

13.2.4. If you use a wheelchair or buggy, you should be able to board
any low-floor bus unless (in the driver's opinion) it is so crowded that
there is no room for you to travel safely. You will only be refused
entry when it is absolutely necessary, but no-one already travelling
will be asked to get off the bus."

On a practical matter, there seems to be a lack of a design standard for
bus wheelchair spaces. Some are good, but many have poles which cause
difficulty while manoeuvring in and out.
--
Walter Briscoe

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

In article ,
(Walter Briscoe) wrote:

In message
of
Fri, 9 Dec 2011 03:36:03 in uk.transport.london, Paul
writes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16091997

[snip]

The article goes on to mention the conflict between wheelchair users
and buggy users who will not fold a buggy and/or move to make space
for a wheelchair user. This is a problem whatever type of bus you
use, and there is no easy answer.

I suggest that drivers should be required, as now, to ask passengers
with unfolded buggies to fold them. The change I would make is that
drivers should be instructed on a refusal/inability, to issue a transfer
ticket for a following service. The problem is that many buggies are
used to carry a week's shopping as well as a child.

I would have the "Conditions of Carriage" take a tougher line with non-
priority wheelchair space users.

"13.2.3. Wheelchair users have priority over everyone else for use of
the wheelchair space, since this is the only place in which they can
travel safely. If someone in a wheelchair wishes to board, and the
wheelchair space is occupied by standing passengers or buggies, standing
passengers will be asked by the driver to make room if possible, and
buggy users will be asked to fold them and put them in the luggage space
or keep them by their side.

13.2.4. If you use a wheelchair or buggy, you should be able to board
any low-floor bus unless (in the driver's opinion) it is so crowded that
there is no room for you to travel safely. You will only be refused
entry when it is absolutely necessary, but no-one already travelling
will be asked to get off the bus."

On a practical matter, there seems to be a lack of a design standard for
bus wheelchair spaces. Some are good, but many have poles which cause
difficulty while manoeuvring in and out.

Have you ever tried to take a child on a bus on your own, especially one too
young to walk? If you had you won't make such a daft suggestion.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On 2011-12-10, wrote:
In article ,
(Walter Briscoe) wrote:

In message
of
Fri, 9 Dec 2011 03:36:03 in uk.transport.london, Paul
writes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16091997

[snip]

The article goes on to mention the conflict between wheelchair users
and buggy users who will not fold a buggy and/or move to make space
for a wheelchair user. This is a problem whatever type of bus you
use, and there is no easy answer.

I suggest that drivers should be required, as now, to ask passengers
with unfolded buggies to fold them. The change I would make is that
drivers should be instructed on a refusal/inability, to issue a transfer
ticket for a following service. The problem is that many buggies are
used to carry a week's shopping as well as a child.

....

Have you ever tried to take a child on a bus on your own, especially one too
young to walk? If you had you won't make such a daft suggestion.

Everybody did, all the time, buses with suitable space are a relatively
recent invention. Trains too, in many places.

No, it's not a daft suggestion.

Eric

--
ms fnd in a lbry

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Dec 10, 10:06*am, wrote:
In article ,





(Walter Briscoe) wrote:
In message
of
Fri, 9 Dec 2011 03:36:03 in uk.transport.london, Paul
writes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16091997

[snip]

The article goes on to mention the conflict between wheelchair users
and buggy users who will not fold a buggy and/or move to make space
for a wheelchair user. *This is a problem whatever type of bus you
use, and there is no easy answer.

I suggest that drivers should be required, as now, to ask passengers
with unfolded buggies to fold them. The change I would make is that
drivers should be instructed on a refusal/inability, to issue a transfer
ticket for a following service. The problem is that many buggies are
used to carry a week's shopping as well as a child.

I would have the "Conditions of Carriage" take a tougher line with non-
priority wheelchair space users.

"13.2.3. Wheelchair users have priority over everyone else for use of
the wheelchair space, since this is the only place in which they can
travel safely. If someone in a wheelchair wishes to board, and the
wheelchair space is occupied by standing passengers or buggies, standing
passengers will be asked by the driver to make room if possible, and
buggy users will be asked to fold them and put them in the luggage space
or keep them by their side.

13.2.4. *If you use a wheelchair or buggy, you should be able to board
any low-floor bus unless (in the driver's opinion) it is so crowded that
there is no room for you to travel safely. You will only be refused
entry when it is absolutely necessary, but no-one already travelling
will be asked to get off the bus."

On a practical matter, there seems to be a lack of a design standard for
bus wheelchair spaces. Some are good, but many have poles which cause
difficulty while manoeuvring in and out.

Have you ever tried to take a child on a bus on your own, especially one too
young to walk? If you had you won't make such a daft suggestion.

--
Colin Rosenstiel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Yes I have on many occasions, children are not exactly a new invention
are they?

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Dec 9, 11:53*am, wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 03:36:03 -0800 (PST)

Paul wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16091997

Interestingly, the BBC article gives the impression that all bendy
buses are being replaced by the Borismaster.

"...But Transport for All, which speaks for older and disabled
transport users, said TfL was "nuts" to scrap the vehicles, especially
as their new Routemaster-style replacements had only "a tiny

TfL didn't have a choice in the matter, they do what Berty "Boris" Wooster
tells them. Dumping these buses is one of the worst examples of political
dogma over common sense I've seen in recent years. As for Boris's fatuous
reason of fare dodging - isn't he putting conductors in his new buses for
exactly the same reason? Why couldn't he have put them in the bendy buses?

B2003

Getting these unsuitable buses in the first place was the worst
example of political dogma over common sense that I've ever seen.

I mean FOUR bendy bus routes converging on Victoria, wasn't going to
cause problems was it??

The fare dodging issue is anything but fatuous!

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 09:38:15 -0800 (PST)
George wrote:
Getting these unsuitable buses in the first place was the worst
example of political dogma over common sense that I've ever seen.

There was nothing unsuitable about them. I've seen loads of them at victoria -
what was the problem? People wibble on about london being special - there is
nothing special about london. Its streets are no narrower or more curvy than
a lot of european cities. Anyone who thinks bendybuses have a hard time here
should see them navigate their way around the centre of Metz in France!

The fare dodging issue is anything but fatuous!

Funny how everywhere else in europe copes.

B2003

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

In message , at 09:48:29 on Wed, 21 Dec
2011, d remarked:

The fare dodging issue is anything but fatuous!

Funny how everywhere else in europe copes.

It's easy to cope when the culture is different. Reminds me of a USA TV
show at the time of the London Riots which showed footage of looters
queuing up outside a small electrical store to relieve it of its stock.
The Americans were incredulous that they'd queue, rather than fight with
each other to get in first for the best stuff.

We are well known for queuing in the UK, but not so well known for
paying fares if we think we can avoid it. The usual excuse being "if
they can't be bothered to collect the money in a watertight fashion..."
--
Roland Perry

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

We are well known for queuing in the UK

But wrongly in the bits of London I inhabit where the "bus queue" of my
childhood has become the "I'm getting on the bus now, I'm entitled"
ruck. And as for "let them off first" on the tube..........
--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On 21/12/2011 19:42, Robin wrote:

And as for "let them off first" on the tube..........

Someone tried that. He's been stood on the same platform for three and a
half years now...


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 09:48:29AM +0000, d wrote:
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 09:38:15 -0800 (PST)
George wrote:
Getting these unsuitable buses in the first place was the worst
example of political dogma over common sense that I've ever seen.
There was nothing unsuitable about them. I've seen loads of them at victoria

Yes, queueing outside the bus station!

what was the problem? People wibble on about london being special - there is
nothing special about london. Its streets are no narrower or more curvy than
a lot of european cities. Anyone who thinks bendybuses have a hard time here
should see them navigate their way around the centre of Metz in France!

Metz is a small town, you can't sensibly compare it to London.

--
David Cantrell | Bourgeois reactionary pig

All praise the Sun God
For He is a Fun God
Ra Ra Ra!

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:17:15 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 09:48:29AM +0000, d wrote:
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 09:38:15 -0800 (PST)
George wrote:
Getting these unsuitable buses in the first place was the worst
example of political dogma over common sense that I've ever seen.
There was nothing unsuitable about them. I've seen loads of them at victoria

Yes, queueing outside the bus station!

You mean unlike all the double deckers that queue too?

what was the problem? People wibble on about london being special - there is
nothing special about london. Its streets are no narrower or more curvy than
a lot of european cities. Anyone who thinks bendybuses have a hard time here
should see them navigate their way around the centre of Metz in France!

Metz is a small town, you can't sensibly compare it to London.

Of course you can , its the size of the streets that matter , not the size
of the town.

FYI I saw bendy buses navigating this street with little problem:

http://g.co/maps/spjnn

If they can manage to get around the old part of Metz there's no problem
with them getting around London. The only issue they had was that certain
vested interest groups + Boris decided they didn't like them from the get go
for whatever political reasons. No one ever bothered to asked the people that
actually mattered - ie the passengers.

B2003

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:32:12PM +0000, d wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:17:15 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
Metz is a small town, you can't sensibly compare it to London.
Of course you can , its the size of the streets that matter , not the size
of the town.

Small town == not much traffic == not so many problems caused by
blocking junctions.

FYI I saw bendy buses navigating this street with little problem:

http://g.co/maps/spjnn

If they can manage to get around the old part of Metz there's no problem
with them getting around London.

Sure, just like they do in York. Where there's **** all traffic.

vested interest groups + Boris decided they didn't like them from the get go
for whatever political reasons. No one ever bothered to asked the people that
actually mattered - ie the passengers.

Well, apart from that nice Mr. Johnson making it part of his manifesto
and people voting for him. The mayor has basically no significant
powers over anything that matters to most people apart from transport,
so the transport part of his manifesto was the only important bit.

--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

Immigration: making Britain great since AD43

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:56:08 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:32:12PM +0000, d wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:17:15 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
Metz is a small town, you can't sensibly compare it to London.
Of course you can , its the size of the streets that matter , not the size
of the town.

Small town == not much traffic == not so many problems caused by
blocking junctions.

I never once saw a bendy bus block a junction. ISTM its just another myth
perpetuated by non bus users who didn't like them.

FYI I saw bendy buses navigating this street with little problem:

http://g.co/maps/spjnn

If they can manage to get around the old part of Metz there's no problem
with them getting around London.

Sure, just like they do in York. Where there's **** all traffic.

Whats traffic got to do with it? Either they block junctions and kill poor
innocent cyclists or they don't.

Well, apart from that nice Mr. Johnson making it part of his manifesto
and people voting for him. The mayor has basically no significant
powers over anything that matters to most people apart from transport,
so the transport part of his manifesto was the only important bit.

If you seriouly think the majority of people (including myself) who voted for
Boris did it because they didn't like bendy buses then you're an idiot.
I - as I suspect many others - simply voted for the buffoon to get rid if
that even bigger idiot Livingstone. Frankly I've yet to see a serious
candidate fielded for the london major. They're all been lightweights and
hasbeens from all parties.

B2003

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Jan 11, 12:24*pm, wrote:

If you seriouly think the majority of people (including myself) who voted for
Boris did it because they didn't like bendy buses then you're an idiot.
I - as I suspect many others - simply voted for the buffoon to get rid if
that even bigger idiot Livingstone. Frankly I've yet to see a serious
candidate fielded for the london major. They're all been lightweights and
hasbeens from all parties.

Genuine question then - who would you consider to be a reasonably
acceptable / competent candidate for Mayor?

I sort of agree with your basic diagnosis (in your final sentence
above) but I'm not sure who would be a better choice than the current
candidates.

B2003

Are you not due an increment (B2004?) by now? New year and all
that? ;-)

--
Paul C
via Google

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 05:39:53 -0800 (PST)
Paul Corfield wrote:
Genuine question then - who would you consider to be a reasonably
acceptable / competent candidate for Mayor?

Good question. TBH there arn't many politicians who impress me right now.
A few years back I'd have said Steve Norris until he turned out to be a
blame shifting snake with that potters bar incident. Portillo would perhaps
make a good mayor since he seems to have turned into a pretty thoughtful and
intelligent man. Of course he's no longer in politics so he's out.
Ken Clarke would be good so long as they don't let him anywhere near justice
or anything to do with europe.

Are you not due an increment (B2004?) by now? New year and all
that? ;-)

Doesn't rhyme!

B2003

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

Paul Corfield wrote on 11 January 2012 13:39:53 ...
On Jan 11, 12:24 pm, wrote:

If you seriouly think the majority of people (including myself) who voted for
Boris did it because they didn't like bendy buses then you're an idiot.
I - as I suspect many others - simply voted for the buffoon to get rid if
that even bigger idiot Livingstone. Frankly I've yet to see a serious
candidate fielded for the london major. They're all been lightweights and
hasbeens from all parties.

Genuine question then - who would you consider to be a reasonably
acceptable / competent candidate for Mayor?

I sort of agree with your basic diagnosis (in your final sentence
above) but I'm not sure who would be a better choice than the current
candidates.

Andrew Adonis.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

In message , at 17:30:41 on Wed,
11 Jan 2012, Richard J. remarked:
Genuine question then - who would you consider to be a reasonably
acceptable / competent candidate for Mayor?

I sort of agree with your basic diagnosis (in your final sentence
above) but I'm not sure who would be a better choice than the current
candidates.

Andrew Adonis.

So having made such a success of the original Academies programme, and
the Railways, you'd unleash him on London?
--
Roland Perry

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 12:24:54PM +0000, d wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:56:08 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
Small town == not much traffic == not so many problems caused by
blocking junctions.
I never once saw a bendy bus block a junction. ISTM its just another myth
perpetuated by non bus users who didn't like them.

I did, a great many times.

Sure, just like they do in York. Where there's **** all traffic.
Whats traffic got to do with it? Either they block junctions and kill poor
innocent cyclists or they don't.

Umm, for the hard-of-thinking, please consider what might cause a
vehicle to stop on a junction, and the effects that might have. Now
apply those thoughts to the two situations where, first, there is lots
of traffic, and second, where there is not.

Now do you understand?

As for cyclists, bendy buses *are* more dangerous to cyclists than
normal buses, but only to those cyclists who are really ****ing stupid
and do stupid things like overtaking on the left and ignoring
indicators, and can't seem to grasp the idea of large vehicles needing
lots of space for turning, or the idea of blind spots.

Well, apart from that nice Mr. Johnson making it part of his manifesto
and people voting for him. The mayor has basically no significant
powers over anything that matters to most people apart from transport,
so the transport part of his manifesto was the only important bit.
If you seriouly think the majority of people (including myself) who voted for
Boris did it because they didn't like bendy buses then you're an idiot.

Of course. People voted for him because they liked his transport
policies as a whole and because ...

I - as I suspect many others - simply voted for the buffoon to get rid if
that even bigger idiot Livingstone.

Then you're an idiot who shouldn't be trusted with a vote. Are you
really saying that you didn't bother to consider the policies of the
chap you voted for?

Frankly I've yet to see a serious
candidate fielded for the london major. They're all been lightweights and
hasbeens from all parties.

First time round, Livingstone was a serious candidate with good policies
and a reasonable track record from his time at the GLC. He then fatally
wounded himself by re-joining Labour instead of remaining as an
independent. I'm fairly sure that if he had remained independent he'd
still be mayor.

FWIW, I voted for Johnson, because I thought his transport policies were
better than Livingstone's, and the other bloke's (Paddick?) transport
policies were ridiculous. There were no other candidates although I did
find the comedy acts most entertaining.

--
David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist

Are you feeling bored? depressed? slowed down? Evil Scientists may
be manipulating the speed of light in your vicinity. Buy our patented
instructional video to find out how, and maybe YOU can stop THEM

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:32:07 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
I never once saw a bendy bus block a junction. ISTM its just another myth
perpetuated by non bus users who didn't like them.

I did, a great many times.

Well I used to take them from bank to holborn on a regular basis when I
worked in that area and never saw it happen once nor have I seen it happen
elsewhere. I guess we'll have to agree to differ.

Sure, just like they do in York. Where there's **** all traffic.
Whats traffic got to do with it? Either they block junctions and kill poor
innocent cyclists or they don't.

Umm, for the hard-of-thinking, please consider what might cause a
vehicle to stop on a junction, and the effects that might have. Now
apply those thoughts to the two situations where, first, there is lots
of traffic, and second, where there is not.

If a vehicle stops on a junction because there's blocking traffic then its
the drivers fault for crossing in the first place. Its not the fault of the
vehicle. I've seen plenty of cars do it but I can't remember seeing many
buses do it. No doubt you've probably seen bendy buses cross junctions
hundreds of times without a problem but remember the one incident where it
occured.

And if you've ever been to Metz you'd know that the centre consists of tight
narrow streets with sharp corners and cars parked all over the place. Plenty
of things to potentially obstruct a bus.

I - as I suspect many others - simply voted for the buffoon to get rid if
that even bigger idiot Livingstone.

Then you're an idiot who shouldn't be trusted with a vote. Are you
really saying that you didn't bother to consider the policies of the
chap you voted for?

Pretty much. There was no way I wanted livingstone and his justice dodging
agenda pushing cronies like Jasper back in. Frankly I'd have voted for a
Tellytubby before him. Boris is a mostly harmless buffoon. So long as he
serves his term and basically does nothing of importance then thats fine by me.

and a reasonable track record from his time at the GLC.

Sorry, is that some kind of joke? Livingstone is the patron saint of whining
minority causes and to hell with the majority. He's a standard issue self
hating duplicitous anti english left wing baby boomer. The only good thing
about him and his worthless generation is that they'll soon be too old to
cause any more trouble and wreck society any further than they already have.

B2003

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:31:23AM +0000, d wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:32:07 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
Umm, for the hard-of-thinking, please consider what might cause a
vehicle to stop on a junction, and the effects that might have. Now
apply those thoughts to the two situations where, first, there is lots
of traffic, and second, where there is not.
If a vehicle stops on a junction because there's blocking traffic then its
the drivers fault for crossing in the first place.

True. Now consider why a driver might feel like he needs to do that.

In particular consider the case where he is driving a long vehicle and
needs to turn at the junction, and there are lots of short vehicles also
wishing to go the same way from some other direction.

Our bendy bus driver is waiting at the lights, they turn green, but
there isn't enough room in his desired direction for him to clear the
junction. So he waits. By the time the lights turn red there was
*some* room, but not enough, so he goes nowhere. Then the lights go
green in the other direction, and what space had formed gets filled with
other vehicles. Such as a normal bus, perhaps. Repeat ad infinitum.

If he is to move in any reasonable time, serving his passengers' needs
and not causing a massive queue to build up behind him, then he needs
to occupy the space that forms, with the unfortunate result that he
then blocks the junction. The problem arises because of a combination
of many factors:

* vehicle length;
* the amount of traffic;
* the spacing and size of junctions;
* where the long vehicles are (ie where the bus routes are);
* the number of long vehicles;
* traffic light phasing;
* no doubt some stuff I forgot

Suddenly introducing a squillion very long vehicles where previously
there were very few long vehicles without fixing some of those other
issues was stupid.

Then you're an idiot who shouldn't be trusted with a vote.
Pretty much.

yay selective quoting! Sorry, I couldn't resist.

and a reasonable track record from his time at the GLC.
Sorry, is that some kind of joke? Livingstone is the patron saint of whining
minority causes and to hell with the majority. He's a standard issue self
hating duplicitous anti english left wing baby boomer. The only good thing
about him and his worthless generation is that they'll soon be too old to
cause any more trouble and wreck society any further than they already have.

We were talking specifically about transport - the only thing that the
mayor has power over that people care about, remember. His championing
of the cause of one-legged lesbian nuclear-free whales is irrelevant.
What matters is his successful campaign, in the teeth of Tory
opposition, to do things like simplify fares and integrate different
modes of public transport.

--
David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information

23.5 degrees of axial tilt is the reason for the season

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:13:46 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
Our bendy bus driver is waiting at the lights, they turn green, but
there isn't enough room in his desired direction for him to clear the
junction. So he waits. By the time the lights turn red there was
*some* room, but not enough, so he goes nowhere. Then the lights go
green in the other direction, and what space had formed gets filled with
other vehicles. Such as a normal bus, perhaps. Repeat ad infinitum.

Makes you wonder how any of the thousands of HGVs all over the country ever
make any progress doesn't it.

We were talking specifically about transport - the only thing that the
mayor has power over that people care about, remember. His championing
of the cause of one-legged lesbian nuclear-free whales is irrelevant.

Its not if he spends taxpayers money on it.

B2003

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 12:10:25PM +0000, d wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:13:46 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
Our bendy bus driver is waiting at the lights, they turn green, but
there isn't enough room in his desired direction for him to clear the
junction. So he waits. By the time the lights turn red there was
*some* room, but not enough, so he goes nowhere. Then the lights go
green in the other direction, and what space had formed gets filled with
other vehicles. Such as a normal bus, perhaps. Repeat ad infinitum.
Makes you wonder how any of the thousands of HGVs all over the country ever
make any progress doesn't it.

You may have noticed that very few of the biggest ones go into central
London.

--
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

You can't spell "slaughter" without "laughter"

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 12:18:44 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 12:10:25PM +0000, d wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:13:46 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
Our bendy bus driver is waiting at the lights, they turn green, but
there isn't enough room in his desired direction for him to clear the
junction. So he waits. By the time the lights turn red there was
*some* room, but not enough, so he goes nowhere. Then the lights go
green in the other direction, and what space had formed gets filled with
other vehicles. Such as a normal bus, perhaps. Repeat ad infinitum.
Makes you wonder how any of the thousands of HGVs all over the country ever
make any progress doesn't it.

You may have noticed that very few of the biggest ones go into central
London.

But bendy buses weren't restricted to cental london. Some routes went out
into the burbs where you'll find a lot of HGVs. So what was the rationale
in getting rid of them from there?

B2003

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:20:10 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
wrote:

But bendy buses weren't restricted to cental london. Some routes went out
into the burbs where you'll find a lot of HGVs. So what was the rationale
in getting rid of them from there?

Because a bus primarily designed for fast rapid trips at airports and in
city centres is not automatically suitable for longer journeys across the
suburbs. The bendies had an official capacity (as printed on the signs by

Who said it was only designed for rapid trips and city centres? Because the
standing to seating ratio is high? So what, its high in plenty of metro trains
too.

the driver's cab) that was about 50% more than they could hold in practice,
and they had limited seats and space to safely store the likes of
supermarket shopping. When you have long journeys seats are invariably more

And you think in a double decker there is space to store shopping? Where?

desirable than a bus rampacked with standing room only crush crowded because
the route has had its de facto capacity cut despite official figures saying
it is sufficient. Furthermore the "free bus" aspect was particular disliked

Standing is better than no bus at all. The number of times I've seen packed
double deckers that couldn't let anymore people on I've lost count of. And
if you think standing in a bendy bus is bad trying standing on the staircase
of a double decker with a driver who thinks he's Schumacher.

because many passengers felt it brought extra problems to the route - and it
was hard to persuade people the bendies weren't "free" when ticket checks
were rare, especially outside zone 1, and a person who didn't mind the
stigma of being occasionally fined would be significantly better off because
the fines never approached regular usage (plus with readers spread across
the bus one could always tap their Oyster onto one if they did get wind of
an inspection).

Irrelevant. Thats an issue with inspection , it has nothing to do with the
bus. Using that logic you should close the whole of the DLR since it has
very few physical ticket barriers and the train captains rarely inspect
everyones tickets in rush hour.

B2003

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:40:07 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
Metro trains tend to be faster and/or have a turnover such that it's easier
for the longer distance traveller to get a seat for at least some of the
journey.

When I communted by tube I usually ended up standing for 30-40 mins.

crowded vestibule of the bendy. Even when standing on a double decker the
passenger flow is such that in most areas you don't get the crushed from all
sides that you do on bedies.

All I ever see on a crowded double decker when it reaches a stop is
"excuse me" , "can I get past" , "excuse me". People falling down the
stairs, people having to get off so others can get off then fight their
way back on again. The double decker is completely unsuited to frequent
stopping routes as used in cities and its about time this country got over
its nostalgic love affair with this **** poor design of vehicle and woke up
to the reality of bus travel.

Irrelevant. Thats an issue with inspection , it has nothing to do with the
bus.

On the contrary it was one of the main reasons the buses failed to catch
people's affections. The limited number of inspections and, even more so,

So are you seriously suggesting that the people travelling on bendies didn't
like them because others fare dodged? And when did bus passengers get polled
about which bus they prefered in the first place?

doubledeckers that ran in parrallel for part of the route, and the high
number of undesirable incidents on it.

Such as? I never saw youths hanging around at the back of bendies causing
trouble as I have done many MANY times on the top deck of a double decker.

can't be certain you won't run into a check at either end or onboard. But
the critical factor is less the level of open accessibility of the system
itself than whether there are perceived problems consequential to that level
of open accessibility.

Perception has nothing to do with it when you actually use a system. Its how
well it gets you from A to B that matters and the bendies did that perfectly.
In fact they were probably one of the few good ideas Livingstone ever had.

B2003

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 01:31:29PM +0000, d wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 12:18:44 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 12:10:25PM +0000, d wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:13:46 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
Our bendy bus driver is waiting at the lights, they turn green, but
there isn't enough room in his desired direction for him to clear the
junction. So he waits. By the time the lights turn red there was
*some* room, but not enough, so he goes nowhere. Then the lights go
green in the other direction, and what space had formed gets filled with
other vehicles. Such as a normal bus, perhaps. Repeat ad infinitum.
Makes you wonder how any of the thousands of HGVs all over the country ever
make any progress doesn't it.
You may have noticed that very few of the biggest ones go into central
London.
But bendy buses weren't restricted to cental london. Some routes went out
into the burbs where you'll find a lot of HGVs. So what was the rationale
in getting rid of them from there?

Getting rid of them makes less sense there, unless the route goes from
suburbia to the centre.

--
David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

d wrote:

crowded vestibule of the bendy. Even when standing on a double decker the
passenger flow is such that in most areas you don't get the crushed from
all
sides that you do on bedies.

All I ever see on a crowded double decker when it reaches a stop is
"excuse me" , "can I get past" , "excuse me". People falling down the
stairs, people having to get off so others can get off then fight their
way back on again.

With the exception of the stairs I saw all that to a much greater extent on
the bendies.

The double decker is completely unsuited to frequent
stopping routes as used in cities and its about time this country got over
its nostalgic love affair with this **** poor design of vehicle and woke
up
to the reality of bus travel.

You can dismiss people who prefer double deckers as nostalgic all you like
but it is grossly inaccurate. They prefer the double deckers because they
prefer its features and advantages over the bendies.

Irrelevant. Thats an issue with inspection , it has nothing to do with
the
bus.

On the contrary it was one of the main reasons the buses failed to catch
people's affections. The limited number of inspections and, even more so,

So are you seriously suggesting that the people travelling on bendies
didn't
like them because others fare dodged?

Well nobody likes the idea of others getting a free ride at their own
expense but the substantial issue was people believed the free bus was
responsible for other problems on them, particularly the ram pack crowding
and some of the incidents.

And when did bus passengers get polled
about which bus they prefered in the first place?

Well the nearest I'm aware of was 1/5/08:

http://adf.ly/4q4fS

Okay that was about than bendy buses but it is the key poll point.

doubledeckers that ran in parrallel for part of the route, and the high
number of undesirable incidents on it.

Such as? I never saw youths hanging around at the back of bendies causing
trouble as I have done many MANY times on the top deck of a double decker.

You clearly were not looking at the back of the same bendies that I was
looking at.

can't be certain you won't run into a check at either end or onboard. But
the critical factor is less the level of open accessibility of the system
itself than whether there are perceived problems consequential to that
level
of open accessibility.

Perception has nothing to do with it when you actually use a system. Its
how
well it gets you from A to B that matters and the bendies did that
perfectly.

Perception has a lot to do with it when the buses become a political potato.
It also plays a real part in influencing users and their concerns.

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:38:33 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
All I ever see on a crowded double decker when it reaches a stop is
"excuse me" , "can I get past" , "excuse me". People falling down the
stairs, people having to get off so others can get off then fight their
way back on again.

With the exception of the stairs I saw all that to a much greater extent on
the bendies.

I fail to see how it would be harder to get off a bus with 3 large exit doors
than one with 1 small exit door (the front one is entrance only on DDs).

You can dismiss people who prefer double deckers as nostalgic all you like
but it is grossly inaccurate. They prefer the double deckers because they
prefer its features and advantages over the bendies.

Please list them. The only one I can think of is for people who like a nice
view from the top deck. Well I'm sorry, but thats hardly a good reason.

Well nobody likes the idea of others getting a free ride at their own

In the rush hour I doubt many people cared.

expense but the substantial issue was people believed the free bus was
responsible for other problems on them, particularly the ram pack crowding
and some of the incidents.

So because they were popular and carried a lot of people thats a bad thing?
Sorry, I must be missing the logic of your argument.

Perception has a lot to do with it when the buses become a political potato.

It was only ever a political issue in Boris's mind. I doubt it would even
have made the top 10 of any voters pressing concerns.

B2003

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:41:47 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:

I fail to see how it would be harder to get off a bus with 3 large exit
doors
than one with 1 small exit door (the front one is entrance only on DDs).

Because the bendy vestibles were far more packed and had people trying to
move in all directions.

They were more packed because you could get more people on them.

Please list them. The only one I can think of is for people who like a
nice
view from the top deck. Well I'm sorry, but thats hardly a good reason.

A more realistic official capacity.

Which is still less than a bendy.

More seats.

True, but not that important for short journeys.

A clearer passenger flow.

A more difficult passenger flow you mean. Once the gangway from driver
to rear door is blocked with standees its a bugger to get on and the bus
sits at the stop for ages blocking traffic.

Just for starters and that's even before we get to the issue of how much
road space they took up.

And how much roadspace would 2 double deckers with the same capacity as 1
bendy take up?

Sorry, I must be missing the logic of your argument.

For the final time the point is people believed that because they were free
buses they attacted far more passengers than if they had to be paid for -

For the final time - no one bloody cares! Do you honestly think people look
around at fellow passengers wondering if they've paid the fare? And are you
seriously suggesting that in each bus there were dozens of fare dodgers who
would otherwise have walked?? Get real.

All that said, I think Boris was elected for other reasons as well,
particularly Lee Jasper.

Well quite.

B2003

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

Farewell To The Bendy Bus
 

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:17:57 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
For the final time - no one bloody cares! Do you honestly think people
look
around at fellow passengers wondering if they've paid the fare?

It was quite a common comment by many that they assumed that, albeit usually
only stated once they were off the buses.

Hmm , I wonder. And did it stop them using the bus? It seems not.

And are you
seriously suggesting that in each bus there were dozens of fare dodgers
who
would otherwise have walked?? Get real.

Well how do you explain the preference of many very short hoppers around
Stratford and the Romford Road for the bendy 25 over the doubl decker 86? Or

Probably because people prefered getting on a bendy bus instead of struggling
onto a double decker especially if they had shopping or kids or had trouble
walking. If you're not that mobile then getting up the stairs on a moving
bus isn't much fun.

the more bearable loadings on the 25 now it's a double decker?

How many more double deckers compared to bendies are they running on that
route?

W don't know for sure how much fare dodging there was because ticket
inspections in that neck of the woods were so rare.

As I've said, thats an administration issue, its not a fault of the bus
design. With a 17 year high in unemployment they can hardly claim that they
can't find the staff.

B2003

Farewell To The Bendy Bus