On 27/12/2011 03:43, wrote:
On Dec 26, 3:17 pm,
wrote:

They've been in London for years, they have. But I don't know that they
are made of any particular type of plastic.-

I'm surprised London has that kind of crime--assaults on bus drivers.

There have been plenty assaults on TfL workers here, for things as
simple as asking to see a customer's tickets.

I myself have witnessed a couple of incidents with bus drivers, where
one passenger tried to spit on the bus driver. Another, to whom the bus
driver refused entry as he did not have fare literally pounded his fist
onto the partition.

I had also heard stories of bus conductors winding up in hospital.

Are London buses exact fare?

No, they are not. But many drivers will only be able to give change for
a small amount, in my observation, such as for £5.

On 27/12/2011 14:57, wrote:
On Dec 26, 10:51 pm, danny wrote:
writes:
Until roughly 1970, bus drivers in major cities gave change so
passengers didn't need to have the exact fare in cash. But holdups
pushed transit carriers to go exact fare.

methinks you mean "simplification and a speedup in boarding
pushed transit carriers to go exact fare"


No, I meant to prevent holdups. They were a serious problem in the
late 1960s as urban conditions decayed.

Back in those days fares could be odd coin combinations, 15c in small
towns, I think 20c in NYC at the time; plus there were transfer and
zone fares in many places. While most passengers used exact change to
save themselves time, plenty of people expected change, especially if
a family was travelling.

I don't know about NYC, but in Phila, initially the driver could punch
a refund slip if a passenger overpaid. The slip could be cashed in at
the local bus garages. Obviously punching up a slip took time and
passengers arguing with the driver over change took time.


Could they not have also used it as partial fare payment?

On 27/12/2011 04:10, Neil Williams wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 19:43:18 -0800 (PST), wrote:
Are London buses exact fare?

No, though in London it is "buy before you board" in the central area.
But most use Oyster anyway.


You can indeed pay your fare on London busses with cash, and drivers
will indeed give change, providing they have it. You will pay the
current full cash fare of £2.20, though, compared to £1.20 or £1.25 if
you use Oyster prepay.

Fare machines can be seen in central London, though they appear to be
less and less.

On 27/12/2011 14:58, wrote:
On Dec 26, 11:10 pm, Neil wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 19:43:18 -0800 (PST), wrote:
Are London buses exact fare?

No, though in London it is "buy before you board" in the central
area. But most use Oyster anyway.

So outside the central area the bus drivers will still make change in
London and other English cities?

Assuming that they have it, as far as London goes.

On Dec 27, 12:38*pm, "
wrote:

I don't know about NYC, but in Phila, initially the driver could punch
a refund slip if a passenger overpaid. *The slip could be cashed in at
the local bus garages. *Obviously punching up a slip took time and
passengers arguing with the driver over change took time.

Could they not have also used it as partial fare payment?

No, they could only be redeemed.

At some point after the cutover, the fare refund slips were
discontinued. Apparently people accepted exact fare by that point and
were used to it. Also, SEPTA resumed selling token-packets at a
discount; and started selling passcards, so for regular riders, exact
fare wasn't an issue.

SEPTA, unlike NYC, accepts dollar bills on its buses. I don't know
why NYC's fareboxes aren't set up to handle that.

But unfortunately, in NYC and in Phila, bus drivers have been
assaulted, even killed, by nutcases for oddball reasons, such as a
dispute of a transfer or just because someone was agitated and wanted
to stab another person.

In message
, at
10:00:55 on Tue, 27 Dec 2011, remarked:
I don't know about NYC, but in Phila, initially the driver could punch
a refund slip if a passenger overpaid. *The slip could be cashed in at
the local bus garages. *Obviously punching up a slip took time and
passengers arguing with the driver over change took time.

Could they not have also used it as partial fare payment?

No, they could only be redeemed.

I've seen similar slips in Italy - you have to take them to a very
specific office to cash them in.
--
Roland Perry

On Dec 27, 8:55*am, "Martin Rich" wrote:
"Neil Williams" wrote in message

.net...

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 19:43:18 -0800 (PST), wrote:
Are London buses exact fare?

No, though in London it is "buy before you board" in the central area.
But most use Oyster anyway.

Exact change policies are generally considered passenger unfriendly in the
UK, and are practiced only by a minority of bus operators.

As you say, it's a minority but there also seem to be regional variations..
Like another poster in u.t.l I've encountered exact change policies in the
West Midlands and also in Scotland.

Until roughly 1970, bus drivers in major cities gave change so
passengers didn't need to have the exact fare in cash. *But holdups
pushed transit carriers to go exact fare.

Not in the UK, where change being given is the norm.

From the late 1960s in London the 'Red Arrow' routes in the centre, and some
busy routes elsewhere in London, adopted an exact change policy along with
use of a flat fare, at a time when other routes charged fares that varied
according to the distance that a passenger was travelling. *So if you
boarded a bus 200 (traditional London fare system) at Wimbledon station,
you'd pay one fare if you were simply travelling the short hop to the top of
Wimbledon Hill, a higher fare if you were continuing once the bus continued
along Ridgway, and so on. *But if you boarded a 501 (Red Arrow) at Waterloo,
you'd pay a fixed amount irrespective of whether you were taking a short hop
across Waterloo Bridge, or continuing to Holborn or beyond. *However my
recollection is that this was done to speed boarding, not because of concern
over security for drivers.

NJT, which runs the buses throughout the state, uses a zone fare
system -- $1.50 for a short trip; a one-seat ride from in front of my
house in Jersey City to the 40th St. Port Authority Bus Terminal is
three zones (which is some non-even fare -- I haven't done it since
the base fare went up from $1.25 a while back), exact change cityward,
but to board in NYC, the signs say, you now _must_ stop at the ticket
booth on the ground floor before proceeding to the gate. (I did that
the couple of times I traveled that way -- it's really only convenient
to the theater district; if you have to add a subway fare in the city,
it's not economical -- the ticket booth clerks were very nasty -- but
other people boarded with simply cash. The driver doesn't check
receipts when one disembarks, though probably is supposed to.)

Some long-distance runs, such as Journal Square in Jersey City all the
way to Hackensack, are treated as local city runs, making regular
stops along the streets in JC with regular city buses. I think a few
commuter-bus-served routes leave from JSQ also that go down toward the
Shore. (Though the latest model of city bus has pretty nice padded
seats, and actual straps -- woven webbing like backpack straps --
rather than metal loops for standees to hold.)

On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:37:22 +0000, wrote:
On 27/12/2011 03:43, wrote:

Are London buses exact fare?

No, they are not. But many drivers will only be able to give change for
a small amount, in my observation, such as for £5.

If the driver is not able to give change, what is the procedure? Will the
passenger have to overpay or will the driver issue an Unpaid Fare Notice?

--
jhk

On 27/12/2011 18:36, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:37:22 +0000, wrote:
On 27/12/2011 03:43, wrote:

Are London buses exact fare?

No, they are not. But many drivers will only be able to give change for
a small amount, in my observation, such as for £5.

If the driver is not able to give change, what is the procedure? Will the
passenger have to overpay or will the driver issue an Unpaid Fare Notice?

I actually just noticed a driver issuing an unpaid fare notice at White
City on Monday, though I am not sure of the reason.

In my experience, however, if the driver is not able to give change,
then that is just tough luck.

On 27/12/2011 18:00, wrote:
On Dec 27, 12:38 pm,
wrote:

I don't know about NYC, but in Phila, initially the driver could punch
a refund slip if a passenger overpaid. The slip could be cashed in at
the local bus garages. Obviously punching up a slip took time and
passengers arguing with the driver over change took time.

Could they not have also used it as partial fare payment?

No, they could only be redeemed.

At some point after the cutover, the fare refund slips were
discontinued. Apparently people accepted exact fare by that point and
were used to it. Also, SEPTA resumed selling token-packets at a
discount; and started selling passcards, so for regular riders, exact
fare wasn't an issue.

SEPTA, unlike NYC, accepts dollar bills on its buses. I don't know
why NYC's fareboxes aren't set up to handle that.

But unfortunately, in NYC and in Phila, bus drivers have been
assaulted, even killed, by nutcases for oddball reasons, such as a
dispute of a transfer or just because someone was agitated and wanted
to stab another person.

Do busses in Westchester County still accept dollar bills?