CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
 

On 20/01/2012 04:20, John Levine wrote:
Mhat are the MTA doing about smartcard ticketing on the Subway and
buses?

As far as I know, they're still scratching their heads. These days
the options seem to be to issue their own smartcard, like PATH did
with Smartlink, or else piggyback on contactless EMV credit cards
(Visa Paywave, Mastercard Paypass, Amex Express Pay) as SEPTA is
doing. Metrocards are already accepted by multiple different
operating authorities (MTA in NYC, Beeline in Westchester, NICE in
Nassau County, and PATH) so I hope that any new smartcard won't work
any worse.

in the area, maybe even for bridge and tunnel tolls.

I doubt that a Smart Card would be used for bridge and tunnel tolls as
most cars in the greater New York area are equipped with special
transponders that toll gates read. They can also be used on other road
agencies' territories -- even in Ontario, in Canada.

Fare payment cards are intended to be read from a few inches away when
they're nearly stationary. E-ZPass transponders can be read from many
feet away when a vehicle is moving at 60 MPH. They're quite different
applications.

By the way, the only place outside the US that E-ZPass works is on the
Peace bridge across the Niagara river, where the toll booths happen to
be on the Canadian side. In Toronto, the 407 toll road uses the same
technology as E-ZPass but for some reason does not interoperate with it.

R's,
John

Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the
way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of
transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
 

In message , at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20
Jan 2012, " remarked:
By the way, the only place outside the US that E-ZPass works is on the
Peace bridge across the Niagara river, where the toll booths happen to
be on the Canadian side. In Toronto, the 407 toll road uses the same
technology as E-ZPass but for some reason does not interoperate with it.

Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the
way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of
transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge
from Tower Bridge to Windsor.
--
Roland Perry

CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
 

I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.

Well, yes, and the distances are considerably greater, too. The
distance from New York to Niagara Falls, within New York state, is
about the same as London to Glasgow.

R's,
John

PS: Fun Fact: the James Bay municipality in Quebec is the same size as England.

CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20 Jan
2012, " remarked:

Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way
they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of
transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from
Tower Bridge to Windsor.

Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value
purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is
used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation.

Peter

e-zpass, CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
 

I also tend to believe that toll booths will be dismantled and that
cars will be able to travel at normal speeds on a motorway while readers
mounted on a frame over it will simply read the transponders.

I saw that once on the New Jersey Turnpike.

Garden State Parkway, actually.

For those cars that are either from out of town or lacking a
transponder, they will have cameras with license plate recognition
software.

That's how the Sunpass tolls in Florida, the 407 in Toronto, and the
A25 bridge in Montreal work. They don't take cash. I hear that
people from Vermont can travel on the 407 for free, because VT won't
provide plate info. Dunno about A25 and Sunpass.

R's,
John

CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
 

Mhat are the MTA doing about smartcard ticketing on the Subway and
buses? ...

Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the
way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of
transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

The MTA's Metrocard already works on four agencies' transit, MTA,
PATH, NICE, and Beeline. The MTA runs Metro-North and the LIRR so I
presume whatever they come up with will work on them, too. I presume
Metrocard doesn't work on Metro-North and LIRR because the current
system can't handle fares that vary by distance, but you can buy a
physical ticket which is Metro-North on one side and Metrocard on the
back.

The main question is NJ Transit. They already cooperate with the MTA
on the west of Hudson Metro-North trains, which are extensions of NJ
commuter lines, but they don't do joint fares with PATH even though it
would make a lot of sense for the many commuters who transfer between
the two at Hoboken and Newark.

R's,
John

E-ZPass, was CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
 

That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge
from Tower Bridge to Windsor.

Actually, E-ZPass has solved that remarkably well, with 22 different
authorities accepting each other's passes.

They did trials using it to pay at McDonalds' drive-through on Long Island,
but nothing came of it. Since you have to stop to pick up the order anyway,
tapping a credit card doesn't slow the process down much.

R's,
John

CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
 

On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:52:37 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 18:31:57 on Fri, 20 Jan
2012, John Levine remarked:
I'm not sure why any agency would go the smart card route for tolls.

Instead of cash, for non-regular users. There's a toll bridge/tunnel at
the Thames Estuary, for example, and while they have a transponder
scheme my usage of the crossing when I lived nearby was only perhaps
once a year. A contactless credit card seems a better bet than adding
interoperability to any particular transport smart card though.

We already have interoperable toll transponders with E-ZPass.

Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the
London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder).

Lots of cameras at the boundary points providing images for ANPR
(Automatic Number Plate Recognition) processing. The system does not
require advance payment but works by determining if a vehicle is
exempt from charging or if the charge has been paid; failing that test
generates a (normal price) charge which the driver/keeper has until
midnight to pay after which there is a further 24hrs to pay an
increased (12 UKP instead of 10 UKP) charge. After that it becomes a
60 UKP Penalty Charge which increases to 120 UKP after T+14. At T+28 a
Charge Certificate is issued which increases the charge to 187 UKP. At
T+49 a Warrant of Execution can be applied for and "the boys"
(bailffs) get sent round to execute recovery of payment or goods not
just for the amount due but for their own fees on top.

I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.

CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
 

On 20/01/2012 21:50, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20
Jan 2012, " remarked:
By the way, the only place outside the US that E-ZPass works is on the
Peace bridge across the Niagara river, where the toll booths happen to
be on the Canadian side. In Toronto, the 407 toll road uses the same
technology as E-ZPass but for some reason does not interoperate with it.

Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the
way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes
of transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge
from Tower Bridge to Windsor.

I wasn't talking about bridges, I was referring to transport. I wonder
why there isn't one Smart Card for the greater New York area, similar to
what we have here in London.

CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
 

I wasn't talking about bridges, I was referring to transport. I wonder
why there isn't one Smart Card for the greater New York area, similar to
what we have here in London.

As I've noted before, Metrocard is accepted by four agencies, five if
you count PATH and the JFK Airtrain separately. Given that it appears
to be technically limited to a fixed fare per swipe, that's all the
places where it makes sense.

A smartcard would presumably also work on Metro-North and LIRR, which
are also the MTA, with the remaining question being NJ Transit.

Since New Jersey is, in the words of B. Franklin, a keg tapped at both
ends, NJ Transit also has to consider interoperation with SEPTA and
PATCO which operate transit in the Philadephia area, even though
there's no need for New York and Philadelphia payments to interoperate
directly.

Extra bonus confusion: NJ Transit is experimenting with tap payment
using contactless credit cards on some bus lines. In Connecticut,
Metro-North runs commuter trains west of New Haven, the state runs
commuter trains east of New Haven, with joint fares, and also joint
fares with some CT Transit buses. On a few routes, Amtrak (the long
distance train agency) will accept local commuter tickets.

R's,
John