Roland Perry wrote:

They did trials using it to pay at McDonalds' drive-through on Long Island,
but nothing came of it. Since you have to stop to pick up the order anyway,
tapping a credit card doesn't slow the process down much.

McD's in the UK is one of the (relatively few) places where you can use
paywave credit cards. Although I always feel a bit awkward using a
credit card for such small purchases.

McDonalds in the Chicago area took Mobil Speedpass (a small black keychain
device) in the early 80s. It was a predecessor to today's paywave type cards,
except that it was tethered to a Mobil credit account. Although primarily
intended to pay for fuel at the pump at area Mobil stations, there were a few
other places it could be used.

Roland Perry wrote:
at 06:13:10 on Sat, 21 Jan 2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:

I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
with photographs of license plates?

Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates

No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.

We may have a problem with the word "enforce". While it's true that
transponders are the primary means of collecting [US highway] tolls,
supplemented in many cases by a cash-lane, what the cameras are doing is
enforcing a regime where people need a transponder (or to use the
cash-lane).

Not relying on transponders at all is more a sophisticated system, sure,
as the vehicle owner doesn't have to obtain any additional equipment in
advance.

I cannot wait for the day when everybody pays using DNA as identification.

In the UK we talk about "Law Enforcement" to mean the way in which
people like the police ensure people obey the law by various means, but
primarily by the pursuit of offenders.

It's rather Big Brother-ish, isn't it. There's no privacy and it's
gotten easier and easier to track the movements of everyone. The loss
of privacy hasn't resulted in the prevention of crime, although it
can aid in finding perpetrators after the fact when it's too late.

Here in America, the cops are quite capable of capturing the dumbest
criminals, the ones who record their violent assaults (even murders
at times) then post them to social media.

spsffan wrote:
On 1/20/2012 10:15 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Peter wrote:
"Roland wrote:
at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20 Jan remarked:

Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way
they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of
transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from
Tower Bridge to Windsor.

Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value
purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is
used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation.

Ah! I wondered about that. Yet, pay-by-cell phone doesn't. Weird.

Anyone who accesses their bank account with a cell phone is an idiot who
deserves whatever they get.

Makes a feller want to get into the stealing business!

Bankers are quite capable of stealing far more money than those who
commit bank robbery.

In message , at 15:29:00 on Sat, 21 Jan
2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:
I cannot wait for the day when everybody pays using DNA as identification.

Tatoos on your forehead, perhaps.

In the UK we talk about "Law Enforcement" to mean the way in which
people like the police ensure people obey the law by various means, but
primarily by the pursuit of offenders.

It's rather Big Brother-ish, isn't it. There's no privacy

Unless you pay cash, but that doesn't turn off the ANPR cameras.

and it's gotten easier and easier to track the movements of everyone.
The loss of privacy hasn't resulted in the prevention of crime,

It's difficult to be certain, because what might the crime rate have
grown to, without today's measures?

although it can aid in finding perpetrators after the fact when it's
too late.

It's supposed to be a deterrent. Although sending someone a $100 bill
for not stopping at a toll booth isn't necessarily "too late".
--
Roland Perry

On 21-Jan-12 00:13, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
at 21:08:37 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:

Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the
London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder).

I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.

I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
with photographs of license plates?

Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates

No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.

That depends on what you mean by "primary". CTRMA (Austin, TX) and NTTA
(Dallas/Ft Worth, TX) give discounts for using a transponder, but those
without are simply billed by mail at the cash rate. As long as the bill
is paid on time, there are no fines.

(I don't think cars without transponders are impaled on spikes).

Hah! I like spikes to protect grade crossings.

So an errant driver would be brought to a halt on top of the tracks,
directly in the path of an approaching train, rather than (as most do
today) make it across safely?

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On 21-Jan-12 09:29, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In the UK we talk about "Law Enforcement" to mean the way in which
people like the police ensure people obey the law by various means, but
primarily by the pursuit of offenders.

It's rather Big Brother-ish, isn't it. There's no privacy and it's
gotten easier and easier to track the movements of everyone. The loss
of privacy hasn't resulted in the prevention of crime, although it
can aid in finding perpetrators after the fact when it's too late.

That's all LEOs can do in the majority of case: investigate crimes after
they occur and, where possible, pursue the offenders. They very, very
rarely stop crimes in progress, with the notable exception of speeding
tickets.

This assumes people will not commit crimes if they believe they will get
caught. However, that is not necessarily true; most criminals believe
they won't get caught, and some criminals (particularly those with drug
or alcohol problems) simply don't care or even _want_ to be caught.

Here in America, the cops are quite capable of capturing the dumbest
criminals, the ones who record their violent assaults (even murders
at times) then post them to social media.

The solve rate is pretty bad, and the conviction rate is even worse.
And that's for violent crimes that get the most funding and attention;
for non-violent crimes, the cops are rarely even _aware_ of the crime,
and if one is reported, often all they do is file a report and move on.
This just encourages criminality, which eventually escalates into
violent crime, so it's a vicious cycle.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 21-Jan-12 00:13, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
at 21:08:37 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:

Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the
London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder).

I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.

I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
with photographs of license plates?

Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates

No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.

That depends on what you mean by "primary". CTRMA (Austin, TX) and NTTA
(Dallas/Ft Worth, TX) give discounts for using a transponder, but those
without are simply billed by mail at the cash rate. As long as the bill
is paid on time, there are no fines.

**** off Bill Clinton

(I don't think cars without transponders are impaled on spikes).

Hah! I like spikes to protect grade crossings.

So an errant driver would be brought to a halt on top of the tracks,
directly in the path of an approaching train, rather than (as most do
today) make it across safely?

Yes. I've explained my position many, many, many times on Usenet.
Errant motorists take needless risks with their own lives and the lives
of others because they don't believe they'll be injured or killed.
I want grade-crossing protection that increases the risk of death or
serious injury to the driver for gross violation as an example to all
the other idiots.

"Adam H. Kerman" wrote:

Yes. I've explained my position many, many, many times on Usenet.
Errant motorists take needless risks with their own lives and the lives
of others because they don't believe they'll be injured or killed.
I want grade-crossing protection that increases the risk of death or
serious injury to the driver for gross violation as an example to all
the other idiots.


Will there be guns involved? Pretty please?

;-)

"Stephen Sprunk" wrote in message
...
On 21-Jan-12 00:13, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
at 21:08:37 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Adam H. Kerman
remarked:

Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the
London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder).

I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.

I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
with photographs of license plates?

Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates

No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.

That depends on what you mean by "primary". CTRMA (Austin, TX) and NTTA
(Dallas/Ft Worth, TX) give discounts for using a transponder, but those
without are simply billed by mail at the cash rate. As long as the bill
is paid on time, there are no fines.

how does all this work with rental cars?

The last time I drove on a turnpike I handed over a dollar bill to a man in
a kiosk

tim

Yes, it does sound it, except for the one disparity that MTA will not
accept SmartLink cards. I wonder if that is because the MTA does not yet
(ever?) have proper readers installed for Smart cards or because they
just don't want to work with the Port Authority.

Since the PATH takes Metrocards, it's clearly the former. Keep in
mind that PATH has 13 stations, while the MTA has 468 subway stations,
and thousands of buses. Assuming the smartcard will also work on
commuter trains, there are also 120 M-N and 124 LIRR stations, and if
it works on NICE and Beeline, several hundred more buses there.

Once the MTA figures out what kind of smartcard they're going to use,
they'll figure out how to make it work with SmartLink, or maybe
SmartLink will go away and be merged into

What does SEPTA use on its city transport, by the way? How about the
Newark City Subway?

SEPTA takes cash (how quaint) and tokens on buses and subway lines.
SEPTA says they're planning a smartcard
system that piggybacks on contactless EMV debit and credit cards.

PATCO, has distance sensitive fares, its own ticketing system, their
own Freedom smartcard that you tap in and out. The PATCO machines sell
slightly discounted SEPTA tickets for people transferring to SEPTA.

Newark City subway, HB light rail, and River Line are NJ Transit,
They're POP, buy and validate a ticket from a machine on the platform,
or carry a monthly pass.

R's,
John