In message , at 16:00:09 on Mon, 19 Mar
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
It's not the kind of secret that would keep very well.

There are plenty of reasons for everyone (both the criminals and the
banks) to keep such a success very, very secret.

They might try to, but I'm sure they'd fail. If the criminals and the
banks conspired together such that only the banks saw any financial
loss, then they might get away with it (although it would be simpler for
the banks just to pay the criminals direct). Otherwise there will be
third parties seeing losses, and questions would be asked.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:13:45 on Mon, 19 Mar
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
If you prefer something more concrete, consider the UK has a land area
of 243,610 km^2--slightly smaller than Oregon, our 9th-largest state,
and 1/37th that of the entire US.

Having spent quite a bit of time in Texas, I prefer to think of the UK
as being able to fit inside it.

Think of this in terms of having free pan-EU roaming vs. your current
national service, with your service location only determining which
country code your number is from.

On PAYG rates, since last year it's broadly similar in cost to use a
mobile anywhere in the EU now. Partly because regulators capped the
maximum roaming charge, but also because operators increased costs of
intra-UK calling to compensate.

One day we may see the same for "bundled minutes", it's not a technical
thing - the networks are pan-European, just commerce.
--
Roland Perry

On 20/03/2012 07:54, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 15:13:45 on Mon, 19 Mar
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
If you prefer something more concrete, consider the UK has a land area
of 243,610 km^2--slightly smaller than Oregon, our 9th-largest state,
and 1/37th that of the entire US.

Having spent quite a bit of time in Texas, I prefer to think of the UK
as being able to fit inside it.

Think of this in terms of having free pan-EU roaming vs. your current
national service, with your service location only determining which
country code your number is from.

On PAYG rates, since last year it's broadly similar in cost to use a
mobile anywhere in the EU now. Partly because regulators capped the
maximum roaming charge, but also because operators increased costs of
intra-UK calling to compensate.

One day we may see the same for "bundled minutes", it's not a technical
thing - the networks are pan-European, just commerce.

Though the big communications groups don't necessarily have a presence
in each country (e.g. France Telecom/ Orange has no presence in Germany,
and Deutsche Telekom/ T-Mobile has no presence in France). But yes, it's
more a commerce thing.

On 20/03/2012 07:37, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 15:57:57 on Mon, 19 Mar
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:

(On another note, I flew Transatlantic with such an airline last year,
and did wonder how they cope with unaccompanied minors, who almost
certainly won't have any cards).

Just tell minors to use their cash to buy a gift card before they
board.

Eventually you may come to accept that gift cards like that are only
available in the USA. It's been mentioned half a dozen times already,
but maybe if we keep saying it you'll believe it.

They can buy the cards at the airport before they leave on an eastbound
transatlantic (or westbound transpacific) flight.

Some people start transatlantic trips from Europe. Strange, I know.

How long do you think it'll take until such cards are available at the
other end of those flights? It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

While a lot of US-invented financial initiatives do find there way over
here (even sub-prime mortgages) I'm not sure those giftcards will. It
seems to be important to the various stores that they are "tied" to a
particular outlet, or even a particular range of goods, and so the
current extensive (non-credit card) mag-stripe gift card scheme may
continue indefinitely.

There might be some regulatory issues too.


Do European banks not have the concept of secondary cards? Each gets
their own card with their own name on it, and they're linked to a common
account, but secondary card holders are _not_ signatories to the card
contract and therefore are not legally liable for payment--which means
they can be minors.

I think secondary card holders in the UK are *jointly* liable, therefore
as a result there's not much point in having a secondary card rather
than a 'primary' one in your own name.

I don't think that's right.

e.g. Barclaycard Visa T&Cs
http://www.barclaycard.co.uk/visaterms.pdf

---quote---
14 ADDITIONAL CARDHOLDERS
14.1 Unless we tell you otherwise, you can ask us to issue an
additional card to any person you nominate as long as they are
eligible for a card.
14.2 You are responsible for all use of your account by an
additional cardholder, even if they do something which
makes you break this Agreement. You must ensure that the
additional cardholder uses the card according to the terms of
this Agreement.
14.3 If you want to cancel any additional card, you are responsible
for returning the card to us.
---/quote---


I agree that it's not all that common here for parents to make their
children an additional cardholder.


Obviously, one wouldn't open an account for a single trip. However,
millions of teens _already_ have cards, including minors, and can use
them on said trip.

UMs can be any age. A few of the teens many have debit cards, but it's
very unusual in the UK for under 16's.

Less unusual these days - e.g. see the "11-15 years old" tab he
http://www.lloydstsb.com/current_accounts/under_19s_account.asp


Those who are flying regularly, particularly
internationally, are probably _most_ likely to have cards.

They are more likely, I agree, especially after they've been caught out
on the first trip.

In message , at 10:22:51 on Tue, 20 Mar
2012, Mizter T remarked:
http://www.barclaycard.co.uk/visaterms.pdf

---quote---
14 ADDITIONAL CARDHOLDERS
14.1 Unless we tell you otherwise, you can ask us to issue an
additional card to any person you nominate as long as they are
eligible for a card.

Is there any information about eligibility (eg being over 18 etc)?
--
Roland Perry

On 20/03/2012 06:25, Neil Williams wrote:

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:28:32 -0700 (PDT),
Mizter T wrote:
NDS VideoGuard encryption (BSkyB) is pretty secure.

The old analogue VideoCrypt system wasn't and was widely hacked.

True - the vulnerability thereof provided something of an extra
motivation to them in migrating customers over to their new digital
platform.

The encryption system really is part of the crown jewels of BSkyB - the
whole business rests or falls by it.

On 20/03/2012 10:35, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 10:22:51 on
Tue, 20 Mar 2012, Mizter T remarked:
http://www.barclaycard.co.uk/visaterms.pdf

---quote---
14 ADDITIONAL CARDHOLDERS
14.1 Unless we tell you otherwise, you can ask us to issue an
additional card to any person you nominate as long as they are
eligible for a card.

Is there any information about eligibility (eg being over 18 etc)?

Here's an APACS guide called "Using cards: a guide for parents" on the
UK Card Association website:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/7cl673q

See the FAQs on the last page...

---quote---
Can someone under 18 get a credit card?

Yes but not usually in their own right. People under 18 can be given a
credit card as an additional cardholder. The main reason why they are
not usually granted access to credit themselves is that, under existing
legislation, under-18-year-olds do not have the capacity to enter into a
contract, which is a pre-requisite for a credit product.
---/quote---


Also on the right hand side under "Which plastic cards are available to
young people?", and the "18 and over" sub-heading:

---quote---
Credit cards

Under 18s can normally only get a credit card as an additional
cardholder – for example on a parent’s credit card account. This age
group are not usually granted access to credit themselves because, under
existing legislation, under-18-year-olds do not have the capacity to
enter into a contract, which is a pre-requisite for a credit product.
Some credit card companies, however, will not give credit cards to
under-18s even as additional cardholders.

Charge cards

The same rules apply to charge cards as to credit cards. Store cards The
same rules usually apply to store cards as to credit and charge cards.

Store cards
The same rules usually apply to store cards as to credit and charge cards.
---/quote---


All that said, I think a great many credit card providers in the UK will
only provide additional cards to those 18 and over - that's certainly
what a quick google seems to suggest.

In message , at 12:38:11 on Tue, 20 Mar
2012, Mizter T remarked:
---quote---
Credit cards

Under 18s can normally only get a credit card as an additional
cardholder – for example on a parent’s credit card account. This
age group are not usually granted access to credit themselves because,
under existing legislation, under-18-year-olds do not have the capacity
to enter into a contract, which is a pre-requisite for a credit
product. Some credit card companies, however, will not give credit
cards to under-18s even as additional cardholders.

Charge cards

The same rules apply to charge cards as to credit cards.

Unfortunately that last part is completely wrong (which is an issue
because it's the very thing this thread has been about).

Solo and Electron (and now VISA Debit) are precisely the debit cards
which *are* given to under 18's in their own right in the UK.

--
Roland Perry

On 20/03/2012 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 12:38:11 on Tue, 20 Mar
2012, Mizter T remarked:
---quote---
Credit cards

Under 18s can normally only get a credit card as an additional
cardholder – for example on a parent’s credit card account. This age
group are not usually granted access to credit themselves because,
under existing legislation, under-18-year-olds do not have the
capacity to enter into a contract, which is a pre-requisite for a
credit product. Some credit card companies, however, will not give
credit cards to under-18s even as additional cardholders.

Charge cards

The same rules apply to charge cards as to credit cards.

Unfortunately that last part is completely wrong (which is an issue
because it's the very thing this thread has been about).

Solo and Electron (and now VISA Debit) are precisely the debit cards
which *are* given to under 18's in their own right in the UK.


I disagree it's wrong - "charge cards" (in UK parlance at least) do not
include debit cards. Charge cards are things like Amex - get a bill, pay
it all at the end of the billing month.

The document makes clear that debit cards can be issued without age
restrictions - again from the last page:

---quote---
No age restrictions

Debit cards

These are only issued when linked to a bank or building society account,
usually a current account. As under- 18s do not have the capacity to
enter into a contract, banks and building societies do not usually
permit this age group to have an overdraft. Some debit cards, such as
Solo or Visa Electron, require all transactions to be authorised against
money already in the account, which prevents the
cardholder going overdrawn. Debit cards will also allow you to use
a cash machine.
---/quote---

"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...


What I agree we didn't get to the bottom of is how the card companies can
issue 'normal' VISA debit cards while also promising the cardholder that
they (the cardholder) will not be allowed to overdraw.
--
Roland Perry

The same way they could hand out cheque books with £50 cheque guarantee
cards (cgc).
I once opened a bank account with £1 and received a cheque book containing
30
cheques plus a £50 cgc. Maybe it was because I worked for a company known as
Access.

Richard