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CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
This from Boston. The CharlieCard is an Oyster-type pre-paid cardcard
used in Boston. Ditto Octopus in HKG. Subject: Expiring CharlieCards causing confusion and frustration http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201..._campaign=8315 For frequent riders, the expiration proves largely invisible: Their cards get an automatic software upgrade, and two-year extension, when swiped. But irregular riders may find themselves suddenly unable to use their plastic CharlieCard. .. A few weeks ago, reader Irene Gruenfeld of Sudbury and her husband took their 5-year-old twins on a stroll through the city with a promise of a Red Line ride from Charles/MGH back to their car in South Boston. They had more than $10 on each of their cards, but the station gates failed to open, displaying an "expired'' message. The vending machines presented similarly cryptic information. No staff was present, forcing them to buy the paper CharlieTickets spit out by the machine, which cost 30 cents more per ride. When the CharlieCard was introduced, five years was the industry standard for the still-emerging smartcard technology. Manufacturers at the time recommended a programmed "sunset date'' to stave off problems that might arise from frequently used cards nearing the end of their useful life, he said. As it became clear the cards could last longer, more recently issued CharlieCards have been given sunset dates of 10 years. Most of the 6 million issued have the longer lifespan, he said. |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
In message
, at 03:21:18 on Tue, 3 Jan 2012, SB remarked: This from Boston. The CharlieCard is an Oyster-type pre-paid cardcard used in Boston. Ditto Octopus in HKG. Subject: Expiring CharlieCards causing confusion and frustration http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...iecards-causin g-confusion-and-frustration/aCFuYJF2erbu5072enGKFI/story.html?s_campaign =8315 For frequent riders, the expiration proves largely invisible: Their cards get an automatic software upgrade, and two-year extension, when swiped. But irregular riders may find themselves suddenly unable to use their plastic CharlieCard. .. A few weeks ago, reader Irene Gruenfeld of Sudbury and her husband took their 5-year-old twins on a stroll through the city with a promise of a Red Line ride from Charles/MGH back to their car in South Boston. They had more than $10 on each of their cards, but the station gates failed to open, displaying an "expired'' message. The vending machines presented similarly cryptic information. No staff was present, forcing them to buy the paper CharlieTickets spit out by the machine, which cost 30 cents more per ride. When the CharlieCard was introduced, five years was the industry standard for the still-emerging smartcard technology. Manufacturers at the time recommended a programmed "sunset date'' to stave off problems that might arise from frequently used cards nearing the end of their useful life, he said. As it became clear the cards could last longer, more recently issued CharlieCards have been given sunset dates of 10 years. Most of the 6 million issued have the longer lifespan, he said. Quite a few of Nottingham's "Cityrider" bus smartcards unexpectedly stopped working on 1st Jan 2010 (not noticed until 2nd Jan as there was no bus service on the 1st). Once alerted to this, they issued people with new cards and transferred the credit while allowing passengers who had a broken card to travel for free (this seems an important aspect!) -- Roland Perry |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
On 03/01/2012 11:21, SB wrote:
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201..._campaign=8315 Line ride from Charles/MGH back to their car in South Boston. They had more than $10 on each of their cards, but the station gates failed to open, displaying an "expired'' message. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to trap people /inside/ the Boston metro system...? -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
On Jan 3, 1:31*pm, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Wouldn't it be more appropriate to trap people /inside/ the Boston metro system...? That's why they're called "Charlie" cards, the man who never returned. |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
On Jan 3, 11:21*am, SB wrote:
This from Boston. The CharlieCard is an Oyster-type pre-paid cardcard used in Boston. Ditto Octopus in HKG. Subject: Expiring CharlieCards causing confusion and frustration http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...arliecards-cau... For frequent riders, the expiration proves largely invisible: Their cards get an automatic software upgrade, and two-year extension, when swiped. But irregular riders may find themselves suddenly unable to use their plastic CharlieCard. .. A few weeks ago, reader Irene Gruenfeld of Sudbury and her husband took their 5-year-old twins on a stroll through the city with a promise of a Red Line ride from Charles/MGH back to their car in South Boston. They had more than $10 on each of their cards, but the station gates failed to open, displaying an "expired'' message. The vending machines presented similarly cryptic information. No staff was present, forcing them to buy the paper CharlieTickets spit out by the machine, which cost 30 cents more per ride. When the CharlieCard was introduced, five years was the industry standard for the still-emerging smartcard technology. Manufacturers at the time recommended a programmed "sunset date'' to stave off problems that might arise from frequently used cards nearing the end of their useful life, he said. As it became clear the cards could last longer, more recently issued CharlieCards have been given sunset dates of 10 years. Most of the 6 million issued have the longer lifespan, he said. I've had an Oyster card since May 2004, and it still works. I've heard of new cards being issued due to some improved security feature, but when I bought a new annual bus pass last month it was still issued on the original card. Miss-reads are rare, maybe one or two per month. I also have a PATH Smartlink card. When I'm over there I can carry both cards in the same wallet and the PATH readers read their card and ignore the Oyster one. However, The Oyster readers will never read their card if there's a Smartlink card anywhere near it. With this particular combination of cards it's not really a problem since only rarely would anybody use both cards on the same day, but with similar cards being introduced for various purposes it could become a problem in future. It really shouldn't be a problem to have readers ignore 'foreign' cards, after all, the PATH ones manage to do it. Mhat are the MTA doing about smartcard ticketing on the Subway and buses? There was a trial at a few stations when I was there a few years ago, but that was Subway only, at a time when PATH had started accepting both Metrocards and Smartlink cards. I would hope that eventually a card will be introduced that's valid on almost everything in the area, maybe even for bridge and tunnel tolls. |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
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CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:53:57 +0000
Roland Perry wrote: The Oyster system seems supersensitive to multiple cards being presented - it didn't work if in the same wallet as a door-entry "card" (actually more of a thick card-sized token). I've had the occasionally issue with a company security pass but not often. It probably depends on what radio frequency the other card uses. If its the same one as oyster then I suspect there'll be problems. B2003 |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
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CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
Mhat are the MTA doing about smartcard ticketing on the Subway and
buses? As far as I know, they're still scratching their heads. These days the options seem to be to issue their own smartcard, like PATH did with Smartlink, or else piggyback on contactless EMV credit cards (Visa Paywave, Mastercard Paypass, Amex Express Pay) as SEPTA is doing. Metrocards are already accepted by multiple different operating authorities (MTA in NYC, Beeline in Westchester, NICE in Nassau County, and PATH) so I hope that any new smartcard won't work any worse. in the area, maybe even for bridge and tunnel tolls. I doubt that a Smart Card would be used for bridge and tunnel tolls as most cars in the greater New York area are equipped with special transponders that toll gates read. They can also be used on other road agencies' territories -- even in Ontario, in Canada. Fare payment cards are intended to be read from a few inches away when they're nearly stationary. E-ZPass transponders can be read from many feet away when a vehicle is moving at 60 MPH. They're quite different applications. By the way, the only place outside the US that E-ZPass works is on the Peace bridge across the Niagara river, where the toll booths happen to be on the Canadian side. In Toronto, the 407 toll road uses the same technology as E-ZPass but for some reason does not interoperate with it. R's, John |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
In message , at 19:29:03 on Thu, 19 Jan
2012, Michael Finfer remarked: I doubt that a Smart Card would be used for bridge and tunnel tolls as most cars in the greater New York area are equipped with special transponders that toll gates read. They can also be used on other road agencies' territories -- even in Ontario, in Canada. Who knows, though? It's the same technology, RFID, but tapping a smart card at a toll booth defeats the big advantage that electronic tolling systems have: no need to stop and open your window. I'm not sure why any agency would go the smart card route for tolls. Instead of cash, for non-regular users. There's a toll bridge/tunnel at the Thames Estuary, for example, and while they have a transponder scheme my usage of the crossing when I lived nearby was only perhaps once a year. A contactless credit card seems a better bet than adding interoperability to any particular transport smart card though. -- Roland Perry |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
On Jan 3, 6:31*pm, Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 03/01/2012 11:21, SB wrote: http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...arliecards-cau... Line ride from Charles/MGH back to their car in South Boston. They had more than $10 on each of their cards, but the station gates failed to open, displaying an "expired'' message. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to trap people /inside/ the Boston metro system...? -- Arthur Figgis * * * * * * * * Surrey, UK Charlie doesn't work that way IIRC - it's only read on entry. To get out there's an uncontrolled turnstile type thingie |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
On 20/01/2012 07:43, wrote:
On Jan 3, 6:31 pm, Arthur wrote: On 03/01/2012 11:21, SB wrote: http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...arliecards-cau... Line ride from Charles/MGH back to their car in South Boston. They had more than $10 on each of their cards, but the station gates failed to open, displaying an "expired'' message. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to trap people /inside/ the Boston metro system...? -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK Charlie doesn't work that way IIRC - it's only read on entry. To get out there's an uncontrolled turnstile type thingie Even if they put the fare up while you are travelling? -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
wrote:
On Jan 3, 6:31 pm, Arthur Figgis wrote: On 03/01/2012 11:21, SB wrote: http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...arliecards-cau... Line ride from Charles/MGH back to their car in South Boston. They had more than $10 on each of their cards, but the station gates failed to open, displaying an "expired'' message. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to trap people /inside/ the Boston metro system...? Charlie doesn't work that way IIRC - it's only read on entry. To get out there's an uncontrolled turnstile type thingie Oooooohhhhh http://www.mit.edu/~jdreed/t/charlie.html |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
I'm not sure why any agency would go the smart card route for tolls.
Instead of cash, for non-regular users. There's a toll bridge/tunnel at the Thames Estuary, for example, and while they have a transponder scheme my usage of the crossing when I lived nearby was only perhaps once a year. A contactless credit card seems a better bet than adding interoperability to any particular transport smart card though. We already have interoperable toll transponders with E-ZPass. There are 22 different road and bridge authorities that accept each other's passes, and some other odds and ends like airport parking. Even if the MTA goes to a smartcard for transit I would be astonished if they accepted it for tolls. The Port Authority already has a smartcard for their PATH transit, and I've never heard anyone suggest using it on their six toll crossings. I gather that the vast majority of toll trips in New York use E-ZPass already, since the passes are issued free if linked to a credit or debit card, the toll discounts are significant, and there's no charge for us occasional users when we don't use it. The incremental benefit of taking Smartlink or whatever for the fraction of drivers that live in the region but don't have E-ZPass would be pretty minimal. R's, John |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
In message , at 18:31:57 on Fri, 20 Jan
2012, John Levine remarked: I'm not sure why any agency would go the smart card route for tolls. Instead of cash, for non-regular users. There's a toll bridge/tunnel at the Thames Estuary, for example, and while they have a transponder scheme my usage of the crossing when I lived nearby was only perhaps once a year. A contactless credit card seems a better bet than adding interoperability to any particular transport smart card though. We already have interoperable toll transponders with E-ZPass. Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder). I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA. -- Roland Perry |
London Congestion Zone charge (was: CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?))
Roland Perry wrote:
at 18:31:57 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, John Levine remarked: I'm not sure why any agency would go the smart card route for tolls. Instead of cash, for non-regular users. There's a toll bridge/tunnel at the Thames Estuary, for example, and while they have a transponder scheme my usage of the crossing when I lived nearby was only perhaps once a year. A contactless credit card seems a better bet than adding interoperability to any particular transport smart card though. We already have interoperable toll transponders with E-ZPass. Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder). I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA. I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely with photographs of license plates? |
London Congestion Zone charge (was: CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?))
In message , at 21:08:37 on Fri, 20 Jan
2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked: Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder). I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA. I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely with photographs of license plates? Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates (I don't think cars without transponders are impaled on spikes). There's also some enforcement by foot patrols, although I've never been sure how widespread they are. That's because you have to pay by the day once inside, which can't be enforced solely by entry cameras on the periphery. -- Roland Perry |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
On 20/01/2012 00:29, Michael Finfer wrote:
On 1/19/2012 5:34 PM, wrote: aybe even for bridge and tunnel tolls. I doubt that a Smart Card would be used for bridge and tunnel tolls as most cars in the greater New York area are equipped with special transponders that toll gates read. They can also be used on other road agencies' territories -- even in Ontario, in Canada. Who knows, though? It's the same technology, RFID, but tapping a smart card at a toll booth defeats the big advantage that electronic tolling systems have: no need to stop and open your window. I'm not sure why any agency would go the smart card route for tolls. Michael Finfer Bridgewater, NJ I also tend to believe that toll booths will be dismantled and that cars will be able to travel at normal speeds on a motorway while readers mounted on a frame over it will simply read the transponders. I saw that once on the New Jersey Turnpike. For those cars that are either from out of town or lacking a transponder, they will have cameras with license plate recognition software. |
London Congestion Zone charge
On 20/01/2012 21:08, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Roland wrote: at 18:31:57 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, John remarked: I'm not sure why any agency would go the smart card route for tolls. Instead of cash, for non-regular users. There's a toll bridge/tunnel at the Thames Estuary, for example, and while they have a transponder scheme my usage of the crossing when I lived nearby was only perhaps once a year. A contactless credit card seems a better bet than adding interoperability to any particular transport smart card though. We already have interoperable toll transponders with E-ZPass. Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder). I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA. I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely with photographs of license plates? Yes, the London congestion charging uses cameras with licence-plate recognition software. |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
On 20/01/2012 04:20, John Levine wrote:
Mhat are the MTA doing about smartcard ticketing on the Subway and buses? As far as I know, they're still scratching their heads. These days the options seem to be to issue their own smartcard, like PATH did with Smartlink, or else piggyback on contactless EMV credit cards (Visa Paywave, Mastercard Paypass, Amex Express Pay) as SEPTA is doing. Metrocards are already accepted by multiple different operating authorities (MTA in NYC, Beeline in Westchester, NICE in Nassau County, and PATH) so I hope that any new smartcard won't work any worse. in the area, maybe even for bridge and tunnel tolls. I doubt that a Smart Card would be used for bridge and tunnel tolls as most cars in the greater New York area are equipped with special transponders that toll gates read. They can also be used on other road agencies' territories -- even in Ontario, in Canada. Fare payment cards are intended to be read from a few inches away when they're nearly stationary. E-ZPass transponders can be read from many feet away when a vehicle is moving at 60 MPH. They're quite different applications. By the way, the only place outside the US that E-ZPass works is on the Peace bridge across the Niagara river, where the toll booths happen to be on the Canadian side. In Toronto, the 407 toll road uses the same technology as E-ZPass but for some reason does not interoperate with it. R's, John Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London. |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
In message , at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20
Jan 2012, " remarked: By the way, the only place outside the US that E-ZPass works is on the Peace bridge across the Niagara river, where the toll booths happen to be on the Canadian side. In Toronto, the 407 toll road uses the same technology as E-ZPass but for some reason does not interoperate with it. Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London. That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem. Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from Tower Bridge to Windsor. -- Roland Perry |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.
Well, yes, and the distances are considerably greater, too. The distance from New York to Niagara Falls, within New York state, is about the same as London to Glasgow. R's, John PS: Fun Fact: the James Bay municipality in Quebec is the same size as England. |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, " remarked: Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London. That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem. Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from Tower Bridge to Windsor. Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation. Peter |
e-zpass, CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
I also tend to believe that toll booths will be dismantled and that
cars will be able to travel at normal speeds on a motorway while readers mounted on a frame over it will simply read the transponders. I saw that once on the New Jersey Turnpike. Garden State Parkway, actually. For those cars that are either from out of town or lacking a transponder, they will have cameras with license plate recognition software. That's how the Sunpass tolls in Florida, the 407 in Toronto, and the A25 bridge in Montreal work. They don't take cash. I hear that people from Vermont can travel on the 407 for free, because VT won't provide plate info. Dunno about A25 and Sunpass. R's, John |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
Mhat are the MTA doing about smartcard ticketing on the Subway and
buses? ... Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London. The MTA's Metrocard already works on four agencies' transit, MTA, PATH, NICE, and Beeline. The MTA runs Metro-North and the LIRR so I presume whatever they come up with will work on them, too. I presume Metrocard doesn't work on Metro-North and LIRR because the current system can't handle fares that vary by distance, but you can buy a physical ticket which is Metro-North on one side and Metrocard on the back. The main question is NJ Transit. They already cooperate with the MTA on the west of Hudson Metro-North trains, which are extensions of NJ commuter lines, but they don't do joint fares with PATH even though it would make a lot of sense for the many commuters who transfer between the two at Hoboken and Newark. R's, John |
E-ZPass, was CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem. Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from Tower Bridge to Windsor. Actually, E-ZPass has solved that remarkably well, with 22 different authorities accepting each other's passes. They did trials using it to pay at McDonalds' drive-through on Long Island, but nothing came of it. Since you have to stop to pick up the order anyway, tapping a credit card doesn't slow the process down much. R's, John |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:52:37 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 18:31:57 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, John Levine remarked: I'm not sure why any agency would go the smart card route for tolls. Instead of cash, for non-regular users. There's a toll bridge/tunnel at the Thames Estuary, for example, and while they have a transponder scheme my usage of the crossing when I lived nearby was only perhaps once a year. A contactless credit card seems a better bet than adding interoperability to any particular transport smart card though. We already have interoperable toll transponders with E-ZPass. Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder). Lots of cameras at the boundary points providing images for ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) processing. The system does not require advance payment but works by determining if a vehicle is exempt from charging or if the charge has been paid; failing that test generates a (normal price) charge which the driver/keeper has until midnight to pay after which there is a further 24hrs to pay an increased (12 UKP instead of 10 UKP) charge. After that it becomes a 60 UKP Penalty Charge which increases to 120 UKP after T+14. At T+28 a Charge Certificate is issued which increases the charge to 187 UKP. At T+49 a Warrant of Execution can be applied for and "the boys" (bailffs) get sent round to execute recovery of payment or goods not just for the amount due but for their own fees on top. I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA. |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
On 20/01/2012 21:50, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, " remarked: By the way, the only place outside the US that E-ZPass works is on the Peace bridge across the Niagara river, where the toll booths happen to be on the Canadian side. In Toronto, the 407 toll road uses the same technology as E-ZPass but for some reason does not interoperate with it. Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London. That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem. Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from Tower Bridge to Windsor. I wasn't talking about bridges, I was referring to transport. I wonder why there isn't one Smart Card for the greater New York area, similar to what we have here in London. |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
I wasn't talking about bridges, I was referring to transport. I wonder
why there isn't one Smart Card for the greater New York area, similar to what we have here in London. As I've noted before, Metrocard is accepted by four agencies, five if you count PATH and the JFK Airtrain separately. Given that it appears to be technically limited to a fixed fare per swipe, that's all the places where it makes sense. A smartcard would presumably also work on Metro-North and LIRR, which are also the MTA, with the remaining question being NJ Transit. Since New Jersey is, in the words of B. Franklin, a keg tapped at both ends, NJ Transit also has to consider interoperation with SEPTA and PATCO which operate transit in the Philadephia area, even though there's no need for New York and Philadelphia payments to interoperate directly. Extra bonus confusion: NJ Transit is experimenting with tap payment using contactless credit cards on some bus lines. In Connecticut, Metro-North runs commuter trains west of New Haven, the state runs commuter trains east of New Haven, with joint fares, and also joint fares with some CT Transit buses. On a few routes, Amtrak (the long distance train agency) will accept local commuter tickets. R's, John |
London Congestion Zone charge
Roland Perry writes:
(I don't think cars without transponders are impaled on spikes). It would block traffic. Can't have that! -Miles -- Is it true that nothing can be known? If so how do we know this? -Woody Allen |
London Congestion Zone charge
Roland Perry wrote:
at 21:08:37 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked: Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder). I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA. I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely with photographs of license plates? Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders. (I don't think cars without transponders are impaled on spikes). Hah! I like spikes to protect grade crossings. There's also some enforcement by foot patrols, although I've never been sure how widespread they are. That's because you have to pay by the day once inside, which can't be enforced solely by entry cameras on the periphery. Thanks. |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
Peter Masson wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote: at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, remarked: Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London. That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem. Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from Tower Bridge to Windsor. Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation. Ah! I wondered about that. Yet, pay-by-cell phone doesn't. Weird. |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
On 1/20/2012 10:15 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Peter wrote: "Roland wrote: at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20 Jan remarked: Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London. That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem. Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from Tower Bridge to Windsor. Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation. Ah! I wondered about that. Yet, pay-by-cell phone doesn't. Weird. Anyone who accesses their bank account with a cell phone is an idiot who deserves whatever they get. Makes a feller want to get into the stealing business! DAve |
London Congestion Zone charge
In message , at 06:13:10 on Sat, 21 Jan
2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked: I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely with photographs of license plates? Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders. We may have a problem with the word "enforce". While it's true that transponders are the primary means of collecting [US highway] tolls, supplemented in many cases by a cash-lane, what the cameras are doing is enforcing a regime where people need a transponder (or to use the cash-lane). In the UK we talk about "Law Enforcement" to mean the way in which people like the police ensure people obey the law by various means, but primarily by the pursuit of offenders. -- Roland Perry |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
In message , at 22:24:11 on
Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Peter Masson remarked: Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London. That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem. Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from Tower Bridge to Windsor. Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation. And this sort of restriction (while banking law is generally to be admired) is the cause of a great deal of interoperability issues. It means that customers have to acquire a new smartcard (electronic purse or ticket wallet) for every different application. I know that in theory there are "multi-product" cards, but I don't know of any examples in the wild, and whether for example trying to load a bus pass onto a library ticket is going to fall foul of red tape at the bus depot or library. It's even worse, because each card generally has a separate and proprietary system for loading more credit. So my child now has a "school meals" smartcard, but I have to learn a completely new online site to go top it up. Cash has some interoperability advantages, after all. I wonder if paywave credit cards are the silver bullet that'll resolve all this, although I'm sure there will still be a separate system to log into to check your balance for school dinners or days left on your bus pass, and it's unlikely there will be a "hint"[1] of that available at the point of use. [1] eg my bus pass shows how many days are left on the reader display, an Oyster Card will give a "statement" from a TfL vending machine etc. -- Roland Perry |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
In message , at 06:15:30 on Sat, 21 Jan
2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked: Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation. Ah! I wondered about that. Yet, pay-by-cell phone doesn't. Weird. It may be something to do with cellphone PAYG balances generally being "non refundable", whereas an Oyster card can be cashed in. As a result it's more like a "bank balance" than buying "pre-pay vouchers" to spend at multiple outlets. Gift cards are the same sort of model, you can redeem them for goods in various places, but the balance isn't really "cash". -- Roland Perry |
E-ZPass, was CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
In message , at 22:35:08 on Fri, 20 Jan
2012, John Levine remarked: They did trials using it to pay at McDonalds' drive-through on Long Island, but nothing came of it. Since you have to stop to pick up the order anyway, tapping a credit card doesn't slow the process down much. McD's in the UK is one of the (relatively few) places where you can use paywave credit cards. Although I always feel a bit awkward using a credit card for such small purchases. -- Roland Perry |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
In message , at 23:55:31 on Fri, 20
Jan 2012, " remarked: That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem. Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from Tower Bridge to Windsor. I wasn't talking about bridges, I was referring to transport. My model was hypothesising about TfL running all the London Toll Bridges, or alternative not, and them all being independently run. I wonder why there isn't one Smart Card for the greater New York area, similar to what we have here in London. It sounds like there's "almost" one. -- Roland Perry |
CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)
On 21/01/2012 06:15, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Peter wrote: "Roland wrote: at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20 Jan remarked: Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London. That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem. Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from Tower Bridge to Windsor. Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation. Ah! I wondered about that. Yet, pay-by-cell phone doesn't. Weird. They do have pay-by-cell for parking here in London, however. |
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