In message , at 17:02:32 on
Sun, 15 Jan 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
Can I just apologise and say my original post was to provide some info
for people and not trigger the "Roland Kings Cross debate" back into
life.

Sorry about that. The good news (except perhaps for people travelling
the same day) is that I'll be off to Kings Cross in a couple of weeks
and will drop in and look at the exhibition.

The bad news is that I'm still far from convinced it's a good idea to
have a trainload of people heading for Platform 0 at ground level at
t-minus 10 minutes, at the same time a different trainload is unloading
from any of platforms 1-4.

And the poor way that passengers flows were planned at St Pancras
doesn't help give me confidence.
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

The bad news is that I'm still far from convinced it's a good idea to
have a trainload of people heading for Platform 0 at ground level at
t-minus 10 minutes, at the same time a different trainload is
unloading from any of platforms 1-4.

And the poor way that passengers flows were planned at St Pancras
doesn't help give me confidence.

I share your concerns, Roland. Luckily I'm going there far less often now
that in the last decade.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

I think that the only really bad passenger flow at St Pancras is that
international arrivals passengers emerge at right angles into the busiest
walking route to/from the Tube station, along with a gaggle of meeters and
greeters standing around.

In message , at
14:31:45 on Mon, 16 Jan 2012, SteveL
remarked:
I think that the only really bad passenger flow at St Pancras is that
international arrivals passengers emerge at right angles into the
busiest walking route to/from the Tube station, along with a gaggle of
meeters and greeters standing around.

That's one of the three on my list. The other two a

The rush of international arrivals passengers flowing through the "room
of columns" and into the end of the western ticket hall, conflicting
with passengers making their way in the opposite direction.

The single escalator down from the Midland Mainline concourse. OK,
there's another escalator and a couple of lifts in the mid-distance, but
they are ignored by most passengers and are only of any use if your
destination is towards the western ticket hall.

iirc there's also only single escalators (and one lift) to/from the Kent
Domestic platforms, but they see fewer passengers there (until the
Olympics, perhaps).

(It's not ideal that arriving International passengers also have to walk
the entire length of the train, and further, then u-turn back. But it's
much the same as that at Brussels.)
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 18:23:48 on
Mon, 16 Jan 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
The exit route will be off the south end of the concourse as expected.
The footbridge and escalators will be for those using the upper level
of the new concourse. I took a little walk round and I think there
will a large circulating area between the buffer stops and exit
gateline. While I take your point about the potential for mixed flows
I wonder if the new way of working will be any worse than people
pouring off trains on to a small jam packed concourse with people
simultaneously heading on to trains.

One of the changes they've made in the last year or two (I can't say
exactly when) was to rope off a corridor across the old concourse in
front of the departure board. I suppose that directs people towards the
newish stairs down to the tube station, but it does reduce the number of
people filtering through the waiting crowds.

Although that begs the question of the waiting crowds. Years ago they
used to have queue "lanes" marked on the floor of the concourse and
people would more or less stand in lines waiting for their train to be
ready. Now it's just one chaotic scrum because no-one is told which
platform the train is leaving from until the very last minute.

Presumably they'll be trying to encourage people to wait on the new
concourse for the platform announcement, rather than filtering through
the barriers to the platform area and then waiting. That's the scheme at
StPancrasMML, assisted by a lack of platform information beyond the
barriers. Of course, what that does is create a long queue for the
barriers as soon as the platform is announced, with people increasingly
anxious that the train's going to leave without them.

I don't wish to debate the rights or wrongs of St Pancras. I would
merely comment that neither station is a green field site and
therefore there will inevitably be some compromises about how you deal
with flows when dealing with intensive train services and the related
floods of passengers.

The first set of escalators for the MML platforms should have been
turned through 90 degrees, to end near their ticket office. As it is,
the MML concourse is needlessly remote from that ticket office, the main
departure board (which seems a bit lost where it is at the moment) the
toilets, SPILL barriers and the Northern ticket hall for the tube. Even
if the rest of the design remained, that one small change would make
quite a difference.

Kings Cross will be an interesting "experiment", because I can't think
of another big terminus where there's not a substantial concourse beyond
the buffers. I know they realise they have issues at Kings Cross with
persuading passengers toward the Piazza (doubtless vainly when it's
pouring with rain outside).
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 18:23:48
on Mon, 16 Jan 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
The exit route will be off the south end of the concourse as expected.
The footbridge and escalators will be for those using the upper level
of the new concourse. I took a little walk round and I think there
will a large circulating area between the buffer stops and exit
gateline. While I take your point about the potential for mixed flows
I wonder if the new way of working will be any worse than people
pouring off trains on to a small jam packed concourse with people
simultaneously heading on to trains.

One of the changes they've made in the last year or two (I can't say
exactly when) was to rope off a corridor across the old concourse in
front of the departure board. I suppose that directs people towards
the newish stairs down to the tube station, but it does reduce the
number of people filtering through the waiting crowds.

You have misunderstood the purpose of that corridor. If you look carefully
you can see that it was created because the route between the halves of the
train shed near the platform ends has been gated off so there is otherwise
no route to the barriers opposite platforms 0-4 from the ends of the other
platforms.

Although that begs the question of the waiting crowds. Years ago they
used to have queue "lanes" marked on the floor of the concourse and
people would more or less stand in lines waiting for their train to
be ready. Now it's just one chaotic scrum because no-one is told
which platform the train is leaving from until the very last minute.

The queue lanes still exist but seem not to be used very often.

Presumably they'll be trying to encourage people to wait on the new
concourse for the platform announcement, rather than filtering
through the barriers to the platform area and then waiting. That's
the scheme at StPancrasMML, assisted by a lack of platform
information beyond the barriers. Of course, what that does is create
a long queue for the barriers as soon as the platform is announced,
with people increasingly anxious that the train's going to leave
without them.

All true.

I don't wish to debate the rights or wrongs of St Pancras. I would
merely comment that neither station is a green field site and
therefore there will inevitably be some compromises about how you deal
with flows when dealing with intensive train services and the related
floods of passengers.

The first set of escalators for the MML platforms should have been
turned through 90 degrees, to end near their ticket office. As it is,
the MML concourse is needlessly remote from that ticket office, the
main departure board (which seems a bit lost where it is at the
moment) the toilets, SPILL barriers and the Northern ticket hall for
the tube. Even if the rest of the design remained, that one small
change would make quite a difference.

Kings Cross will be an interesting "experiment", because I can't
think of another big terminus where there's not a substantial
concourse beyond the buffers. I know they realise they have issues at
Kings Cross with persuading passengers toward the Piazza (doubtless
vainly when it's pouring with rain outside).

We shall see.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 03:15:27
on Tue, 17 Jan 2012, remarked:
One of the changes they've made in the last year or two (I can't say
exactly when) was to rope off a corridor across the old concourse in
front of the departure board. I suppose that directs people towards
the newish stairs down to the tube station, but it does reduce the
number of people filtering through the waiting crowds.

You have misunderstood the purpose of that corridor. If you look carefully
you can see that it was created because the route between the halves of the
train shed near the platform ends has been gated off so there is otherwise
no route to the barriers opposite platforms 0-4 from the ends of the other
platforms.

Hmm, why would you want to get to platforms 0-4 *from* platforms 5-8,
without first standing around in the crowd waiting to see which platform
you want? Although that's a bit recursive, because until the platform's
announced you don't know you need to head for p0-4.

I don't see much need for a "bypass" there for passengers catching
trains who happen to be near platform 8 when their number is called, but
it's heavily used by people leaving p0-4.

--
Roland Perry

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:20:53 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 17:02:32
on Sun, 15 Jan 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
Can I just apologise and say my original post was to provide some
info for people and not trigger the "Roland Kings Cross debate"
back into life.

Sorry about that. The good news (except perhaps for people travelling
the same day) is that I'll be off to Kings Cross in a couple of weeks
and will drop in and look at the exhibition.

I dropped in on the way home this evening. It's just a small stand by
the KX main ticket office. There is a small screen and a couple of
I-Pads which have teaser questions on them. Leaflets and a plan (on
the counter top) are also available.

Yes, I popped in yesterday, too. I entered the station from the St P
direction, and encountered a couple of chaps handing out leaflets about
the changes. I asked one of them about this 'exhibition', and he'd never
heard of it. I then managed to find it, but it's so small that it's very
easy to miss. I couldn't be bothered to play with the iPads, and
wandered off. But I do think the new concourse roof looks terrific.

"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...

remarked:

One of the changes they've made in the last year or two (I can't say
exactly when) was to rope off a corridor across the old concourse in
front of the departure board. I suppose that directs people towards the
newish stairs down to the tube station, but it does reduce the number of
people filtering through the waiting crowds.

You have misunderstood the purpose of that corridor. If you look carefully
you can see that it was created because the route between the halves of
the train shed near the platform ends has been gated off so there is
otherwise no route to the barriers opposite platforms 0-4 from the ends of
the other platforms.

Hmm, why would you want to get to platforms 0-4 *from* platforms 5-8,
without first standing around in the crowd waiting to see which platform
you want? Although that's a bit recursive, because until the platform's
announced you don't know you need to head for p0-4.

I don't see much need for a "bypass" there for passengers catching trains
who happen to be near platform 8 when their number is called, but it's
heavily used by people leaving p0-4.

I agree with Roland's interpretation here - I mainly use that 'bypass' to
exit from the lower-numbered platforms towards the Travel Centre/newish
underground entrance, and I think it was 'created' (or 'signed', to be more
accurate) at around the same time as the 0-5 barriers became operational.

Nitpick: the two sides are 0-5 and 6-8, not 0-4 and 5-8.

Roland Perry wrote in
:

You have misunderstood the purpose of that corridor. If you look
carefully you can see that it was created because the route between
the halves of the train shed near the platform ends has been gated off
so there is otherwise no route to the barriers opposite platforms 0-4
from the ends of the other platforms.

Hmm, why would you want to get to platforms 0-4 *from* platforms 5-8,
without first standing around in the crowd waiting to see which
platform you want? Although that's a bit recursive, because until the
platform's announced you don't know you need to head for p0-4.

I don't see much need for a "bypass" there for passengers catching
trains who happen to be near platform 8 when their number is called,
but it's heavily used by people leaving p0-4.

On a Friday afternoon (eg) the place is heaving. If you are waiting in
front of the departure board towards the west (St Pancras) side and your
train is announced from 0-4, it used to be easiest to walk round behind the
board.

Now you can't. It's not 'gated' in the sense that there are gates you can
get through; it's totally blocked. You have to use the bypass lane, which
is not really wide enough for 2-way traffic of people dragging their life's
possessions on wheels.

Something needs to be done about it. Perhaps they could build a new
concourse somewhere :-)

Peter

--
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