On Mar 15, 8:52*pm, Bill wrote:
In message ,
writes

Some accidents on the M25 and A40 this morning basically gridlocked
most of west
london thanks to plod taking their own sweet time to clear up the scene. Does
it really warrant closing a major road for 3 bloody hours (and counting) just
to take notes of a car crash? Once the casualties have been ferried away ,
take some photos and push the vehicles onto the side of the road until they
can be towed away. What is the bloody problem with plod in this country? Why
does even a modest accident have to be a ****ing "crime scene"? Have they
really got nothing else better to do with their time?

B2003

Looking at it from a different angle. *Your loved one is killed in a
crash and when it comes to coroners court the police say, we are not
sure what the exact reasons were, we have a few photos but no detailed
measurements and samples because we pushed everything out of the way and
destroyed the physical evidence.. *So you never get a definitive answer
of what happened.

Or you have a crash and kill someone, you are prosecuted for causing
death by, you of course say you did not and that this that and the other
happened. *But again the police only have a few photos and conflicting
witness statements, no hard facts. *So you end up in jail.

It may be an inconvenience to you and others, but it can save a lifetime
of doubt and uncertainty, or a life changing criminal record, or not,
for those involved.

--
Bill

Then how do other European Police forces manage to clear vehicles away
as quickly as possible and get the traffic moving again? The Dutch
video the scene, take a bunch of photos and clear the road, I cannot
understand why we need to be different, the scenario you quote is
hardly typical and does not justify the eleven hours I was once in
Tibshelf (sp?). services, the costs of the resulting delays must have
run into millions why is this apparently never taken into account?

On Mar 16, 11:33*am, Ian Jackson
wrote:
In message ,
writes

On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:52:47 +0000
Bill wrote:
Looking at it from a different angle. *Your loved one is killed in a
crash and when it comes to coroners court the police say, we are not
sure what the exact reasons were, we have a few photos but no detailed

The reasons would be a traffic accident. Accidents happen. End of.

measurements and samples because we pushed everything out of the way and

What samples? DNA on the road surface? FFS , when vehicles crash its not
rocket science to figure out what happened.

Or you have a crash and kill someone, you are prosecuted for causing
death by, you of course say you did not and that this that and the other
happened. *But again the police only have a few photos and conflicting
witness statements, no hard facts. *So you end up in jail.

Well with few photos and conflicting evidence there would be no presecution
so I wouldn't be worried.

It may be an inconvenience to you and others, but it can save a lifetime
of doubt and uncertainty, or a life changing criminal record, or not,
for those involved.

Looking at it another way , the jams could cause other accidents to happen
elsewhere, they could cause people to be late for job interviews, hospital
appointments, picking their kids up from school, important deliveries or 101
other important tasks that have to be done during a day. One accident does
not take precidence over the life of an entire city. The europeans realised
this long ago, its about time the police in this country woke up to the
fact too.

In order to minimise the need for long road closures, aren't the police
supposed to be getting new technology in the form of a laser 3D camera,
which will used to rapidly scan the site of road accidents? The images
obtained will then be used to produce holographic images of the site,
which can then be used for the actual detailed investigation..
--
Ian

I can see this apparent good idea further contributing to delays once
in the hands of plod.

In message , d
writes
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:52:47 +0000
Bill wrote:
Looking at it from a different angle. Your loved one is killed in a
crash and when it comes to coroners court the police say, we are not
sure what the exact reasons were, we have a few photos but no detailed

The reasons would be a traffic accident. Accidents happen. End of.

Not always.



measurements and samples because we pushed everything out of the way and

What samples? DNA on the road surface? FFS , when vehicles crash its not
rocket science to figure out what happened.

I am glad that you are such an expert, rocket science may well be
simpler.


Or you have a crash and kill someone, you are prosecuted for causing
death by, you of course say you did not and that this that and the other
happened. But again the police only have a few photos and conflicting
witness statements, no hard facts. So you end up in jail.

Well with few photos and conflicting evidence there would be no presecution
so I wouldn't be worried.

You would be if a couple of people claimed that they saw you speeding
and driving erratically before the incident and you knew full well that
you were within the speed limit. I'm sure that you would be pleading
for the scientific evidence then to prove your claim.




--
Bill

In message , d
writes
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:58:43 +0000
"Richard J." wrote:
It may be an inconvenience to you and others, but it can save a lifetime
of doubt and uncertainty, or a life changing criminal record, or not,
for those involved.

Good post, Bill, and highly relevant. The A40 Gypsy Corner accident

No it wasn't, it was the usual special pleading·

I thought it fair to middling.



this morning involved a lorry and a motorcycle. One man died there.
This was not a "modest accident".

It was a perfectly ordinary accident. 2000 people die on the roads each year
in the UK. We all take risks when we drive and if I ended up dead in an
accident I wouldn't expect the half of london to be inconvenienced because
of it.

Do your relatives share this view? Not a quick yes/no, but a thought
out answer dealing with all the emotions that they will have, do you
really think that all they want to know is "he's dead" without an
explanation or would they rather know why and how, what caused your sad
demise, was it your fault, hopefully not. Or, if the detail can be
obtained they may be able to focus their grief on what actually
happened.



They manage to get the tube up and running fairly quickly when someone
falls under a train so there's absolutely no reason for a major arterial
road to be closed for almost the entire morning just because of a bog standard
road accident.

There is a slight difference in the two situations and the complexity of
the detail.

B2003



--
Bill

I seem to recall it being Brendan's brother Domnic who made the Police
Intervention comment....

"I can concieve of no human situation so awful,that could'nt be immediately
worsened by the interest of a Gard" (Irish Police)

Either way, it's worth raising a glass to the pair of em on the day ?

d wrote on 16 March 2012 09:39:48 ...
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:58:43 +0000
"Richard wrote:
It may be an inconvenience to you and others, but it can save a lifetime
of doubt and uncertainty, or a life changing criminal record, or not,
for those involved.

Good post, Bill, and highly relevant. The A40 Gypsy Corner accident

No it wasn't, it was the usual special pleading·

this morning involved a lorry and a motorcycle. One man died there.
This was not a "modest accident".

It was a perfectly ordinary accident. 2000 people die on the roads each year
in the UK. We all take risks when we drive and if I ended up dead in an
accident I wouldn't expect the half of london to be inconvenienced because
of it. They manage to get the tube up and running fairly quickly when someone
falls under a train so there's absolutely no reason for a major arterial
road to be closed for almost the entire morning just because of a bog standard
road accident.

Your description of an accident in which someone died (an acquaintance
of an acquaintance of mine actually) as a "perfectly ordinary accident"
and a "bog standard accident" just shows how callously insensitive you
are. Any argument based on those sentiments is not worth debating. Good
night.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

In message , Richard J.
writes
wrote on 16 March 2012 09:39:48 ...
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:58:43 +0000
"Richard wrote:
It may be an inconvenience to you and others, but it can save a lifetime
of doubt and uncertainty, or a life changing criminal record, or not,
for those involved.

Good post, Bill, and highly relevant. The A40 Gypsy Corner accident

No it wasn't, it was the usual special pleading·

this morning involved a lorry and a motorcycle. One man died there.
This was not a "modest accident".

It was a perfectly ordinary accident. 2000 people die on the roads each year
in the UK. We all take risks when we drive and if I ended up dead in an
accident I wouldn't expect the half of london to be inconvenienced because
of it. They manage to get the tube up and running fairly quickly when someone
falls under a train so there's absolutely no reason for a major arterial
road to be closed for almost the entire morning just because of a bog
standard
road accident.

Your description of an accident in which someone died (an acquaintance
of an acquaintance of mine actually) as a "perfectly ordinary accident"
and a "bog standard accident" just shows how callously insensitive you
are. Any argument based on those sentiments is not worth debating.
Good night.

I fully understand your feelings about such situations. However, haven't
the police admitted that, when there have been fatalities, they do
sometimes have a policy of closing the road essentially to show respect
for the deceased and their families, and also to demonstrate to other
road users what the consequences of bad driving can be. While I'm sure
that those trapped in traffic all feel sad about what has happened,
should they be made to show respect and guilt in this way?
--
Ian

On Mar 17, 8:31*am, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , Richard J.
writes
[...]
Your description of an accident in which someone died (an acquaintance
of an acquaintance of mine actually) as a "perfectly ordinary accident"
and a "bog standard accident" just shows how callously insensitive you
are. Any argument based on those sentiments is not worth debating.
Good night.

I fully understand your feelings about such situations. However, haven't
the police admitted that, when there have been fatalities, they do
sometimes have a policy of closing the road essentially to show respect
for the deceased and their families, and also to demonstrate to other
road users what the consequences of bad driving can be. [...]

That sounds like total nonsense - can you point to any such
'admission'?

[...] While I'm sure
that those trapped in traffic all feel sad about what has happened,
should they be made to show respect and guilt in this way?

In message
,
Mizter T writes

On Mar 17, 8:31*am, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , Richard J.
writes
[...]
Your description of an accident in which someone died (an acquaintance
of an acquaintance of mine actually) as a "perfectly ordinary accident"
and a "bog standard accident" just shows how callously insensitive you
are. Any argument based on those sentiments is not worth debating.
Good night.

I fully understand your feelings about such situations. However, haven't
the police admitted that, when there have been fatalities, they do
sometimes have a policy of closing the road essentially to show respect
for the deceased and their families, and also to demonstrate to other
road users what the consequences of bad driving can be. [...]

That sounds like total nonsense - can you point to any such
'admission'?

It was three or four years ago - I think when the M5 was shut for a
long, long time, with a lot of people being left trapped. And I think
that, about the same time, several other road closures occurred.
Questions began to be asked about whether such protracted closures were
really justified. At least one police spokesman thought that some mark
of respect was necessary in these circumstances.

[...] While I'm sure
that those trapped in traffic all feel sad about what has happened,
should they be made to show respect and guilt in this way?

--
Ian

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:58:43 +0000
"Richard J." wrote:

this morning involved a lorry and a motorcycle. One man died there.
This was not a "modest accident".

It was a perfectly ordinary accident.

You seem to be stating this as a fact; what is your source of knowledge?

--
DAS