Crossrail tunnelling to start shortly
 

In message , at 23:03:20 on
Fri, 6 Apr 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
Compulsory purchase powers are available to local and national
government and to various other bodies under a range of legislation
and for varying purposes. Property will not always pass by purchase,
e.g. some of my drains are now the property (along with responsibility
for repair and upkeep) of the local water company due to recent
legislation affecting common drains.

The correct term is "sewer", not "drain".

And when the ownership is transferred, do the water company also own any
relevant manholes and manhole covers, or just the pipes?

Out of interest, before the transfer, did detached houses own (in a
property sense) the pipe under the pavement and road connecting to the
public sewer - because they were responsible for it. I don't remember
them being "shown in red" on my deeds.
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail tunnelling to start shortly
 

In message 01cd1440$d8aa14e0$LocalHost@default, at 00:51:29 on Sat, 7
Apr 2012, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:
Is it not the local, or county, authority that exercise eminent domain
(compulsory purchase)? TfF, Network rail are the beneficiaries?

Too US-centric an assumption. Recall that the trad means of
constructing a new UK railway was to promote a private act of
parliament which allowed compulsory purchase as needed by a new or
existing company.

So it might be TfL or Network Rail or a specially set up company, under
court and Dept of Transport supervision. Same for a pipeline or a toll
motorway.

In the UK it requires whoever is building the new road, tramway etc to
obtain a TWA (Transport and Works Act) Order.

Here is an application for one, from a train company:

http://www.chiltern-evergreen3.co.uk/
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail tunnelling to start shortly
 

"Roland Perry" wrote

Out of interest, before the transfer, did detached houses own (in a
property sense) the pipe under the pavement and road connecting to the
public sewer - because they were responsible for it. I don't remember them
being "shown in red" on my deeds.

That might depend on who owns the road. The highway authority of an adopted
highway owns the surface, 'together with the materials and scrapings of it'
(Highways Act 1980 s263) and may or may not own the subsoil, which may
belong to the owner of the house, or to the developer who built the house.
The owner of the house owned the pipe, and had an easement allowing him to
keep it there, if he did not own the subsoil of the road. Easements are
often not referred to in registers of title, merely being referred to as
'overriding interests'.

Peter

Peter

Crossrail tunnelling to start shortly
 

On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 08:50:14 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 23:03:20 on
Fri, 6 Apr 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
Compulsory purchase powers are available to local and national
government and to various other bodies under a range of legislation
and for varying purposes. Property will not always pass by purchase,
e.g. some of my drains are now the property (along with responsibility
for repair and upkeep) of the local water company due to recent
legislation affecting common drains.

The correct term is "sewer", not "drain".

"Private sewers and lateral drains" it says here.

"There are now only public sewers (owned and maintained by the
sewerage companies) and private drains (the responsibility of property
owners)."
[http://www.southernwater.co.uk/Domes...rshipChanges/]

And when the ownership is transferred, do the water company also own any
relevant manholes and manhole covers, or just the pipes?

I wondered about that myself. My water company doesn't seem to want to
tell you (possibly because they don't deal with taking the waste away)
but :-

"Who owns inspection chambers?

For transferred sewers, Southern Water will own manholes and
inspection chambers (and covers). Householders will generally be
responsible for inspection chambers on drains, but water companies
will typically need access to the chamber at the head of the lateral
drain (the first one inside the property boundary)."
[http://www.southernwater.co.uk/Domes...shipQandA.asp]

So, in my case I've only got a couple of short bits of pipe to worry
about as the rest is common.


Out of interest, before the transfer, did detached houses own (in a
property sense) the pipe under the pavement and road connecting to the
public sewer - because they were responsible for it.

The Thames Water leaflet
[http://www.thameswater.co.uk/cps/rde...une_-2011.pdf]
shows them as private up to the point where they join the main
sewer/drain but I think they have ignored a difference mentioned by
Southern Water for those existing before 1937.
When local authorities were still clearing blockages, the common pipe
in my mother's back garden (blocked by disposable nappies from a
neighbour) was always cleared without charge, the house being built
around 1925.

I don't remember them being "shown in red" on my deeds.

They are usually covered in the sections dealing with easements and
covenants as IMU a common drain or neighbour's drain does not involve
ownership of the land space through which it passes but the right to
put the drain through the land; the location is IME not usually
specified and it is maybe not a good idea to do it except when it
becomes a genuine necessity. As there is no land ownership then there
is no property to be marked.

Crossrail tunnelling to start shortly
 

In message , at 20:45:44 on
Sat, 7 Apr 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
Compulsory purchase powers are available to local and national
government and to various other bodies under a range of legislation
and for varying purposes. Property will not always pass by purchase,
e.g. some of my drains are now the property (along with responsibility
for repair and upkeep) of the local water company due to recent
legislation affecting common drains.

The correct term is "sewer", not "drain".

"Private sewers and lateral drains" it says here.

Exactly. That's the terminology which has no space for the concept of
"common drains".

"Who owns inspection chambers?

For transferred sewers, Southern Water will own manholes and
inspection chambers (and covers). Householders will generally be
responsible for inspection chambers on drains, but water companies
will typically need access to the chamber at the head of the lateral
drain (the first one inside the property boundary)."
[http://www.southernwater.co.uk/Domes...shipQandA.asp]

So, in my case I've only got a couple of short bits of pipe to worry
about as the rest is common.

In my previous 1920's house there were two of the large rectangular
pressed steel manhole covers in my drive. The one nearest the road was
already the water company's responsibility and the other remains the
householder's responsibility. I wonder how big a dent in the cover is
required before you can require the water company to replace them?

--
Roland Perry

Crossrail tunnelling to start shortly
 

On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 09:37:43 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 20:45:44 on
Sat, 7 Apr 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
Compulsory purchase powers are available to local and national
government and to various other bodies under a range of legislation
and for varying purposes. Property will not always pass by purchase,
e.g. some of my drains are now the property (along with responsibility
for repair and upkeep) of the local water company due to recent
legislation affecting common drains.

The correct term is "sewer", not "drain".

"Private sewers and lateral drains" it says here.

Exactly. That's the terminology which has no space for the concept of
"common drains".

The description two above ignores the different treatment of common
and non-shared drains so there is a dirty great interpretative hole
available to put "common drains" in. The phrase "common drain" might
(or might not?) be missing from the water/sewerage companies' leaflets
but it certainly isn't from e.g. planning matters :-
"Extension is shown to be constructed above a common drain and will
required the relocation of the existing manhole and SVP."
[Burgh of Brent planning report case 10/1812]

"Who owns inspection chambers?

For transferred sewers, Southern Water will own manholes and
inspection chambers (and covers). Householders will generally be
responsible for inspection chambers on drains, but water companies
will typically need access to the chamber at the head of the lateral
drain (the first one inside the property boundary)."
[http://www.southernwater.co.uk/Domes...shipQandA.asp]

So, in my case I've only got a couple of short bits of pipe to worry
about as the rest is common.

In my previous 1920's house there were two of the large rectangular
pressed steel manhole covers in my drive. The one nearest the road was
already the water company's responsibility and the other remains the
householder's responsibility. I wonder how big a dent in the cover is
required before you can require the water company to replace them?

pedant
sewerage company
/pedant
(one all ?)

Crossrail tunnelling to start shortly
 

In message , at 23:02:35 on
Sun, 8 Apr 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
Compulsory purchase powers are available to local and national
government and to various other bodies under a range of legislation
and for varying purposes. Property will not always pass by purchase,
e.g. some of my drains are now the property (along with responsibility
for repair and upkeep) of the local water company due to recent
legislation affecting common drains.

The correct term is "sewer", not "drain".

"Private sewers and lateral drains" it says here.

Exactly. That's the terminology which has no space for the concept of
"common drains".

The description two above ignores the different treatment of common
and non-shared drains so there is a dirty great interpretative hole
available to put "common drains" in.

Common Drain is an oxymoron, because as soon as it's shared it becomes a
sewer.

The phrase "common drain" might
(or might not?) be missing from the water/sewerage companies' leaflets
but it certainly isn't from e.g. planning matters :-
"Extension is shown to be constructed above a common drain and will
required the relocation of the existing manhole and SVP."
[Burgh of Brent planning report case 10/1812]

Congratulations, you've found a planning document with a mistake in it.
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail tunnelling to start shortly
 

In message , at 23:02:35 on
Sun, 8 Apr 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
In my previous 1920's house there were two of the large rectangular
pressed steel manhole covers in my drive. The one nearest the road was
already the water company's responsibility and the other remains the
householder's responsibility. I wonder how big a dent in the cover is
required before you can require the water company to replace them?

pedant
sewerage company
/pedant
(one all ?)

No, because both were the responsibility of the same company - Severn
Trent Water.
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail tunnelling to start shortly
 

On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 08:01:52 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 23:02:35 on
Sun, 8 Apr 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
In my previous 1920's house there were two of the large rectangular
pressed steel manhole covers in my drive. The one nearest the road was
already the water company's responsibility and the other remains the
householder's responsibility. I wonder how big a dent in the cover is
required before you can require the water company to replace them?

pedant
sewerage company
/pedant
(one all ?)

No, because both were the responsibility of the same company - Severn
Trent Water.

Which is both a sewerage and a water company; the distinction is
important when they connect their pipework to your house. In my case
two different companies are involved.

Crossrail tunnelling to start shortly
 

In message , at 00:24:07 on
Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
In my previous 1920's house there were two of the large rectangular
pressed steel manhole covers in my drive. The one nearest the road was
already the water company's responsibility and the other remains the
householder's responsibility. I wonder how big a dent in the cover is
required before you can require the water company to replace them?

pedant
sewerage company
/pedant
(one all ?)

No, because both were the responsibility of the same company - Severn
Trent Water.

Which is both a sewerage and a water company;

They call themselves "Severn Trent Water", not "Severn Trent Water and
Sewerage" or "Severn Trent Sewerage". Therefore it's polite (as well as
correct) to refer to them as they refer to themselves - a water company.

the distinction is important when they connect their pipework to your
house.

Not in my case.

In my case two different companies are involved.

And you made an erroneous assumption that the same applied to myself.

--
Roland Perry