In message , at 16:03:25 on
Thu, 12 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:

I am not going to share old documents.

That's not very open and transparent (something that Oyster needs to "up
its game" on, frankly). How is someone like Colin supposed to work out
what's happened to him?

What's today's equivalent of the £4.40/£6.50, and where would we find it
in the current document?

(I had a skim through and was bamboozled by the sheer number of
different fares).
--
Roland Perry

On 12/04/2012 00:01, wrote:

Looking at the journey history I can't for the life of me make out how the
negative balance occurred. It shows two entries for 30th March, King's Cross
St Pancras and Westminster, with a charge of £4.40 for the first and £6.50
for the second. Her journeys were KXSP to Westminster and back again.

Depending on how long she spent at Westminster, it's possible it was
treated as a single journey but fell foul of the maximum time limit for
a Zone 1 journey (i.e. 90 minutes).

Cheers,

Barry

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:01:17 -0500,
wrote:

[snip]

Thoughts?

Kings Cross is an OSI. Did the other half use the Oyster Card to get
through the FCC gates for the train to Cambridge on the way home?

I very much doubt that. She would only expect to use Oyster on the
Underground and not all the station was even gated then. I suppose it
could have come too close to the gate when using her paper ticket but she
doesn't keep them in the same wallets so that seems a bit unlikely.

Hmm I'd be a bit surprised as the targets don't have a long range and
if the Oyster activated the gate before the mag ticket I guess your
wife would have noticed.

Therefore the system will have expected a subsequent exit and not
seeing one the max fare will have remained deducted rather than having
value added back on. That's the most plausible explanation I can come
up with.

Yes, I understand that possibility but there is the other charge.

It wouldn't be an issue the other way as I assume a paper ticket was
used to exit FCC and then the Oyster card used to start at the tube.

That wouldn't explain the £4.40 charge in the other direction where there
can be no question of any OSI confusion.

Fair comment Colin - I'd missed that. The only "logical" explanation
is that for some crazy reason you've ended up with two incomplete
journeys - one off peak and the other peak time. You've said the card
has only recorded the entries but no exits and as I'm sure you know
the system has levied the entry charges but not added value back to
get to the right fare deduction.

Sounds like it charged the maximum fares on entry but never checked them
out. I must get more detail by the sound of it.

It is obviously possible that gates are left open if there are very
large crowds and both Westminster and KXSP can have such large crowds.
Clearly the targets on the gates should remain live in such
circumstances to allow entries and exits to be recorded properly.
There is no obvious answer within the system that I can think of that
would have caused the problem you encountered.

I doubt that at Westminster. It has gates beyond the dreams of avarice! I've
never seen them open at any time.

It will be interesting to see how TfL deal with your query given the
elapsed time and lack of central records. Only the card will hold the
data unless there have been further journeys that may cause them to be
removed from the card's 10 journey memory.

Sounds like it would be a good idea to get a print out of the Journey
history. We'll be in London at various times next week. I could scan it and
send it in.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 16:03:25
on Thu, 12 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:

I am not going to share old documents.

That's not very open and transparent (something that Oyster needs to
"up its game" on, frankly). How is someone like Colin supposed to
work out what's happened to him?

What's today's equivalent of the £4.40/£6.50, and where would we find
it in the current document?

(I had a skim through and was bamboozled by the sheer number of
different fares).

If have looked at current detailed online journey history for my own card.
Choosing the "Show all charging detail" option I see that the initial touch
in charge on all my recent journeys was £3.05. I guess that is the
railcard-discounted equivalent of £4.60 off peak.

I have a feeling from past discussion here that the no touch out peak fare
without a railcard is £7.

That would cover the £4.40 and £6.50 equivalents.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Barry Salter) wrote:

On 12/04/2012 00:01, wrote:

Looking at the journey history I can't for the life of me make out how
the negative balance occurred. It shows two entries for 30th March,
King's Cross St Pancras and Westminster, with a charge of £4.40 for the
first and £6.50 for the second. Her journeys were KXSP to Westminster
and back again.

Depending on how long she spent at Westminster, it's possible it was
treated as a single journey but fell foul of the maximum time limit
for a Zone 1 journey (i.e. 90 minutes).

Definitely not that. She was going to a briefing in the afternoon and then
making another visit before returning to King's Cross. The first journey
would have been off peak and the second probably in the evening peak. The
only explanation for the £4.40 is that the touch out at Westminster opened
the gate but failed to register. She doesn't remember the details too well
except that she broke her leg the next day!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 12/04/2012 12:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:52:45 on Thu, 12 Apr
2012, d remarked:
I'm sure an accountant somewhere was expecting to recycle "surrendered"
Oyster cards, all the literature makes it quite clear they don't belong
to the holder, only the money on them does.

No doubt, but if TfL was truly serious about retaining ownership then
they'd
require everyone to produce id and a valid address before buying one
so they
could be reclaimed at some point (though obviously if someone lives
abroad
that might be a teensy problem). Since they don't require I think it can
be infered that they don't actually care.

Whether they care or not (about getting them back), that doesn't change
the legal position wrt ownership.

Presumably they assert ownership as some way to increase the chance of
prosecution if you decide to hack "your" Oyster card?

Or if they discover dodgy behaviour going on they can invalidate and/or
confiscate cards (whilst paying back any pay as you go balance) without
you being able to accuse them of theft?

In message , at 16:34:06
on Thu, 12 Apr 2012, remarked:
What's today's equivalent of the £4.40/£6.50, and where would we find
it in the current document?

(I had a skim through and was bamboozled by the sheer number of
different fares).

If have looked at current detailed online journey history for my own card.
Choosing the "Show all charging detail" option I see that the initial touch
in charge on all my recent journeys was £3.05. I guess that is the
railcard-discounted equivalent of £4.60 off peak.

I have a feeling from past discussion here that the no touch out peak fare
without a railcard is £7.

That would cover the £4.40 and £6.50 equivalents.

Looking at my own Oyster card, the current "Touch in deduction" seems to
be £4.60 and £6.90 (off-peak and peak).

Although just to keep people on their toes^H^H^H in the dark, this s not
mentioned in the 2012 fare rise documentation (equivalent to the 2011
one I posted yesterday):

I can't find the 'body' of the Jan 2012 fare rise decision on the Mayors
Site, but here is are the appendices:

http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/defau...tion%20for%20J
an%2012%20v5%20(2)%20tables_0.pdf

And as presented to Travelwatch:

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/14018/get

So, it looks like you have two unresolved journeys, where the touch-out
was missed. When it's busy at Kings Cross St Pancras, especially the old
ticket hall, it seems to me to again quite easy to inadvertently "follow
through" with your own touch-out not registering.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 08:20:39 on Fri, 13 Apr
2012, Someone Somewhere remarked:
Whether they care or not (about getting them back), that doesn't change
the legal position wrt ownership.

Presumably they assert ownership as some way to increase the chance of
prosecution if you decide to hack "your" Oyster card?

Or if they discover dodgy behaviour going on they can invalidate and/or
confiscate cards (whilst paying back any pay as you go balance) without
you being able to accuse them of theft?

It may also be a belt-and-braces way to be able to ask to see the card,
because it's their card so they are entitled to see it (irrespective of
the general byelaws saying you have to make it available for
inspection).
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:28:13 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
It may also be a belt-and-braces way to be able to ask to see the card,
because it's their card so they are entitled to see it (irrespective of
the general byelaws saying you have to make it available for
inspection).

On a related subject - how much legal powers do revenue inspectors have?
If someone just tells them to eff off is there much they can do about it
apart from call the BTP?

B2003

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
16:34:06 on Thu, 12 Apr 2012, remarked:
What's today's equivalent of the £4.40/£6.50, and where would we find
it in the current document?

(I had a skim through and was bamboozled by the sheer number of
different fares).

If have looked at current detailed online journey history for my own
card. Choosing the "Show all charging detail" option I see that the
initial touch in charge on all my recent journeys was £3.05. I guess that
is the railcard-discounted equivalent of £4.60 off peak.

I have a feeling from past discussion here that the no touch out peak
fare without a railcard is £7.

That would cover the £4.40 and £6.50 equivalents.

Looking at my own Oyster card, the current "Touch in deduction" seems
to be £4.60 and £6.90 (off-peak and peak).

Although just to keep people on their toes^H^H^H in the dark, this s
not mentioned in the 2012 fare rise documentation (equivalent to the
2011 one I posted yesterday):

I can't find the 'body' of the Jan 2012 fare rise decision on the
Mayors Site, but here is are the appendices:


http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/defau...%20for%20Jan%2
012%20v5%20(2)%20tables_0.pdf

And as presented to Travelwatch:

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/14018/get

So, it looks like you have two unresolved journeys, where the
touch-out was missed. When it's busy at Kings Cross St Pancras,
especially the old ticket hall, it seems to me to again quite easy to
inadvertently "follow through" with your own touch-out not
registering.

And at Westminster off peak with its enormous gateline? Seems odd. She
doesn't recall too much detail because of the following day's drama.

Too late now but I have advised my wife to follow my technique. I lay the
car down on the pad and wait till I see the balance.

--
Colin Rosenstiel