If nothing weird happens, like me getting stuck in a gate when I know I
have plenty of money on the Oyster, I assume the oyster is correct.
Fewer headaches.

Jack wrote

Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. Oyster has
never been able to charge in the way that you think it should.

I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed.


"never been able"

Cite please.

Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this
working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster
cards would give a lower cost.

"Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all
your
journeys in one day."


--
Mike D

In message 01cd1bf1$5ddc4f40$LocalHost@default, at 23:31:24 on Mon, 16
Apr 2012, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:
Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. Oyster has
never been able to charge in the way that you think it should.

I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed.


"never been able"

Cite please.

Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this
working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster
cards would give a lower cost.

So how can we explain the OP's problem, where it would have been cheaper
to charge for a Z1-4 plus a single journey 4-5?

This seems likely to be a general issue, if that extra £1.40 journey
causes the cap to rise from £10.80 to £16.00
--
Roland Perry

On Apr 17, 12:31*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
Jack wrote

Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. *Oyster has

never been able to charge in the way that you think it should.

I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed.

"never been able"

Cite please.

Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this
working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster
cards would give a lower cost.

* * "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all
your
* * *journeys in one day."

--
Mike D

Cite please
:-)
Oyster PAYG has NEVER been programmed to charge for one zonal cap,
e.g. Peak Z1-4 plus a single fare for a journey outside the cap
reached, e.g. Z5.

What it does do, assuming correct usage, no max journey times
exceeded, no emergency OSI settings or OSIs causing 'circular
journeys' is charge the lowest of:

1) all single journeys fares between 04:30 and 04:29:59
2) the Peak zonal cap for all journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59
the next day
3) the total of single fares for journeys started between 04:30 and
09:30 and the Off-Peak zonal cap for journeys made between 09:30 and
04:29:59 the next day.
4) the Bus & Tram cap for journeys started between 04:30 and 04:29:59
the next day plus any rail fares for journeys made between 04:30 and
04:29:59 the next day

Oyster takes any discount(s) loaded into the card into account for
single fare and cap calculation.

The charging happens on the chip of the Oyster card during entry and
exit transactions and not retrospectively. In other words, assuming
no incorrect usage, no transaction errors and no OSI related issues,
it cannot charge incorrectly.

The only way to pay for one zonal cap plus a single fare for a rail
journey outside that zonal cap would be to:
1) use two Oyster cards
2) use a paper Day Travelcard and touch in and out with an Oyster card
for the one journey made outside the zones of the Day Travelcard

On Apr 17, 11:56*am, Jack wrote:
On Apr 17, 12:31*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:



Jack wrote

Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. *Oyster has

never been able to charge in the way that you think it should.

I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed.

"never been able"

Cite please.

Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this
working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster
cards would give a lower cost.

* * "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all
your
* * *journeys in one day."

--
Mike D

Cite please
:-)
Oyster PAYG has NEVER been programmed to charge for one zonal cap,
e.g. Peak Z1-4 plus a single fare for a journey outside the cap
reached, e.g. Z5.

What it does do, assuming correct usage, no max journey times
exceeded, no emergency OSI settings or OSIs causing 'circular
journeys' is charge the lowest of:

1) all single journeys fares between 04:30 and 04:29:59
2) the Peak zonal cap for all journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59
the next day
3) the total of single fares for journeys started between 04:30 and
09:30 and the Off-Peak zonal cap for journeys made between 09:30 and
04:29:59 the next day.
4) the Bus & Tram cap for journeys started between 04:30 and 04:29:59
the next day plus any rail fares for journeys made between 04:30 and
04:29:59 the next day

Oyster takes any discount(s) loaded into the card into account for
single fare and cap calculation.

The charging happens on the chip of the Oyster card during entry and
exit transactions and not retrospectively. *In other words, assuming
no incorrect usage, no transaction errors and no OSI related issues,
it cannot charge incorrectly.

The only way to pay for one zonal cap plus a single fare for a rail
journey outside that zonal cap would be to:
1) use two Oyster cards
2) use a paper Day Travelcard and touch in and out with an Oyster card
for the one journey made outside the zones of the Day Travelcard


If the card had capped at £12, and then the OP had then made a single
journey between any combination of zones 2-6, the total charge would
have been £13.40.

Based on the OP's information and all the available non-discounted
single fares, this is not what happened. The card never reached the
Z1-4 cap.

On Apr 17, 11:56*am, Jack wrote:
On Apr 17, 12:31*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:



Jack wrote

Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. *Oyster has

never been able to charge in the way that you think it should.

I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed.

"never been able"

Cite please.

Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this
working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster
cards would give a lower cost.

* * "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all
your
* * *journeys in one day."

--
Mike D

Cite please
:-)
Oyster PAYG has NEVER been programmed to charge for one zonal cap,
e.g. Peak Z1-4 plus a single fare for a journey outside the cap
reached, e.g. Z5.

What it does do, assuming correct usage, no max journey times
exceeded, no emergency OSI settings or OSIs causing 'circular
journeys' is charge the lowest of:

1) all single journeys fares between 04:30 and 04:29:59
2) the Peak zonal cap for all journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59
the next day
3) the total of single fares for journeys started between 04:30 and
09:30 and the Off-Peak zonal cap for journeys made between 09:30 and
04:29:59 the next day.
4) the Bus & Tram cap for journeys started between 04:30 and 04:29:59
the next day plus any rail fares for journeys made between 04:30 and
04:29:59 the next day

Oyster takes any discount(s) loaded into the card into account for
single fare and cap calculation.

The charging happens on the chip of the Oyster card during entry and
exit transactions and not retrospectively. *In other words, assuming
no incorrect usage, no transaction errors and no OSI related issues,
it cannot charge incorrectly.

The only way to pay for one zonal cap plus a single fare for a rail
journey outside that zonal cap would be to:
1) use two Oyster cards
2) use a paper Day Travelcard and touch in and out with an Oyster card
for the one journey made outside the zones of the Day Travelcard


If the card had capped at £12, and then the OP had then made a single
journey between any combination of zones 2-6, the total charge would
have been £13.40.

Based on the OP's information and all the available non-discounted
single fares, this is not what happened. The card never reached the
Z1-4 cap.

On Apr 17, 11:56*am, Jack wrote:
On Apr 17, 12:31*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:



Jack wrote

Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. *Oyster has

never been able to charge in the way that you think it should.

I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed.

"never been able"

Cite please.

Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this
working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster
cards would give a lower cost.

* * "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all
your
* * *journeys in one day."

--
Mike D

Cite please
:-)
Oyster PAYG has NEVER been programmed to charge for one zonal cap,
e.g. Peak Z1-4 plus a single fare for a journey outside the cap
reached, e.g. Z5.

What it does do, assuming correct usage, no max journey times
exceeded, no emergency OSI settings or OSIs causing 'circular
journeys' is charge the lowest of:

1) all single journeys fares between 04:30 and 04:29:59
2) the Peak zonal cap for all journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59
the next day
3) the total of single fares for journeys started between 04:30 and
09:30 and the Off-Peak zonal cap for journeys made between 09:30 and
04:29:59 the next day.
4) the Bus & Tram cap for journeys started between 04:30 and 04:29:59
the next day plus any rail fares for journeys made between 04:30 and
04:29:59 the next day

Oyster takes any discount(s) loaded into the card into account for
single fare and cap calculation.

The charging happens on the chip of the Oyster card during entry and
exit transactions and not retrospectively. *In other words, assuming
no incorrect usage, no transaction errors and no OSI related issues,
it cannot charge incorrectly.

The only way to pay for one zonal cap plus a single fare for a rail
journey outside that zonal cap would be to:
1) use two Oyster cards
2) use a paper Day Travelcard and touch in and out with an Oyster card
for the one journey made outside the zones of the Day Travelcard

The only time Oyster could have charged £12.00 in the way the OP
expected it to, is if the Z1-4 Peak cap had already been applied for
the day, and then one Off-Peak Tube journey between a Z5 or Z6 station
and a station in Z2-Z6, not passing through Z1 had been made. Then
the total charge would have been £13.40.

On Apr 17, 12:15*pm, Jack wrote:
On Apr 17, 11:56*am, Jack wrote:



On Apr 17, 12:31*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

Jack wrote

Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. *Oyster has

never been able to charge in the way that you think it should.

I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed.

"never been able"

Cite please.

Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this
working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster
cards would give a lower cost.

* * "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all
your
* * *journeys in one day."

--
Mike D

Cite please
:-)
Oyster PAYG has NEVER been programmed to charge for one zonal cap,
e.g. Peak Z1-4 plus a single fare for a journey outside the cap
reached, e.g. Z5.

What it does do, assuming correct usage, no max journey times
exceeded, no emergency OSI settings or OSIs causing 'circular
journeys' is charge the lowest of:

1) all single journeys fares between 04:30 and 04:29:59
2) the Peak zonal cap for all journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59
the next day
3) the total of single fares for journeys started between 04:30 and
09:30 and the Off-Peak zonal cap for journeys made between 09:30 and
04:29:59 the next day.
4) the Bus & Tram cap for journeys started between 04:30 and 04:29:59
the next day plus any rail fares for journeys made between 04:30 and
04:29:59 the next day

Oyster takes any discount(s) loaded into the card into account for
single fare and cap calculation.

The charging happens on the chip of the Oyster card during entry and
exit transactions and not retrospectively. *In other words, assuming
no incorrect usage, no transaction errors and no OSI related issues,
it cannot charge incorrectly.

The only way to pay for one zonal cap plus a single fare for a rail
journey outside that zonal cap would be to:
1) use two Oyster cards
2) use a paper Day Travelcard and touch in and out with an Oyster card
for the one journey made outside the zones of the Day Travelcard

The only time Oyster could have charged £12.00 in the way the OP
expected it to, is if the Z1-4 Peak cap had already been applied for
the day, and then one Off-Peak Tube journey between a Z5 or Z6 station
and a station in Z2-Z6, not passing through Z1 had been made. *Then
the total charge would have been £13.40.

Oyster cannot retrospectively apply a Z1-4 cap when a Z5 journey has
already been made earlier in the day

In message
s.com of Mon, 16 Apr 2012 02:18:40 in uk.transport.london, Jack
writes
On Apr 13, 12:46*pm, Walter Briscoe
wrote:
I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5.
I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40.
Oyster helpdesk staff took a few days to agree that I had been
overcharged and agreed an ex gratia payment for the inconvenience.
The payments were delayed for an extra day as they needed "approval".
Automatic overpayment detection does not recognise the situation.

OTOH, there are discrepancies between the Single Fare Finder and Oyster.
(Oyster charges less.)
Moorgate - Queens Road Peckham peak shows as 3.80 but charges 3.70.
It seems there were recent changes to charges between LU & NR.
The Single Fare Finder has not been updated to reflect those changes.
--
Walter Briscoe

Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. Oyster has
never been able to charge in the way that you think it should.

That is probably true. Why?


I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed.

It was not. I got back to the relevant officer to establish the
situation. It seems I misunderstood.


Regards,

Jack

The relevant words seem to be "If you make lots of pay as you go
journeys in one day, we'll make sure you never pay more than the price
of an equivalent Day Travelcard" in http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837
..aspx. The equivalent Day Travelcard would have been z1-6 peak on your
reckoning. You seem to suggest that I should have bought a Z1-4 paper
Travelcard and made a Z4-Z5 PAYG journey or travel with two Oysters.

I believe you are right

I think the revenue difference is trivial and the additional complexity
of implementing my sort of capping is huge. I think that each
underground/national rail journey is measured against one relevant cap.
My method measures each journey against all possible caps and select the
lowest fare. I could not believe it was so complicated when I coded it.
In some ways, I am glad it is not.
--
Walter Briscoe

On Apr 16, 11:58*am, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 02:18:40 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote:
On Apr 13, 12:46*pm, Walter Briscoe
wrote:
I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5.
I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40.
Oyster helpdesk staff took a few days to agree that I had been
overcharged and agreed an ex gratia payment for the inconvenience.
The payments were delayed for an extra day as they needed "approval".
Automatic overpayment detection does not recognise the situation.

OTOH, there are discrepancies between the Single Fare Finder and Oyster.