Hello, hope I am right in this group.

I am an activist in the green party of Hamburg. Actually we are trying to
promote a new tramway-system for Hamburg. The old tramways last service was
in 1978.

We have now two major problems in the promotion of the system, that
contains a 42km network and will replace in the beginning some overcrowded
bus-lines and connect our Dockland like HafenCity. The first is, citizens
have still the old system in mind with cars from the 50ies, not very fast
and comfortable but noisy. The second is the prejudice that tramway-systems
are nothing for metropolis, that shall have metro-lines, but only for
smaller towns. And this is, when the London-tramway becomes interesting.

Does anyone here know people, who are definitely familiar with the Croydon
Tramway and may be interested to introduce this to a Hamburgian audience?
German would be great but (educated) English will be widely understood.

Mathias

In message , Mathias Boelckow
writes
[...]
Does anyone here know people, who are definitely familiar with the Croydon
Tramway and may be interested to introduce this to a Hamburgian audience?
German would be great but (educated) English will be widely understood.

I believe there's someone who posts here who would be perfect.
--
Kat Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no.

Kat schrieb/wrote uns/us:

Does anyone here know people, who are definitely familiar with the Croydon
Tramway and may be interested to introduce this to a Hamburgian audience?
German would be great but (educated) English will be widely understood.

I believe there's someone who posts here who would be perfect.

Fast reply! I hoped so. So you do think, that someone will answer?

Gruß, Mathias Bölckow

There is also the Manchester Metrolink tramway, which partly runs on previous
suburban rail routes, but alos links the city's main rail termini and extends
to the airport. See http://www.metrolink.co.uk/

On 23 Jan 2004 11:25:11 GMT, (CharlesPottins)
wrote:

There is also the Manchester Metrolink tramway, which partly runs on previous
suburban rail routes, but alos links the city's main rail termini and extends
to the airport. See http://www.metrolink.co.uk/

I doesn't go to the airport yet. The extension will be part of the Big
bang extension project, which is supposedly going to get the go-ahead
any time now - though it has been about to start for many months.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:45:07 +0000, Mathias Boelckow wrote:

We have now two major problems in the promotion of the system, that
contains a 42km network and will replace in the beginning some overcrowded
bus-lines and connect our Dockland like HafenCity. The first is, citizens
have still the old system in mind with cars from the 50ies, not very fast
and comfortable but noisy. The second is the prejudice that tramway-systems
are nothing for metropolis, that shall have metro-lines, but only for
smaller towns. And this is, when the London-tramway becomes interesting.

Does anyone here know people, who are definitely familiar with the Croydon
Tramway and may be interested to introduce this to a Hamburgian audience?
German would be great but (educated) English will be widely understood.

I think I'm the one people were referring to as the one who should reply
to this - so here it is - sorry about taking so long, but I've been too
busy to write a decent reply until now... I lived in Hamburg for 9 months
in 1999-2000, have lived in Manchester and now Milton Keynes (with regular
trips to London) so hopefully can give a few thoughts on how systems
compare. What I would perhaps say is that the following may not be
exactly what you wanted to hear, but I'll go ahead with my opinions
anyway. Many of them are based on the Manchester system rather than
Croydon, as I am rather more familiar with that.

Croydon is a large "suburb" of London which can probably be compared with
the kind of smaller town the Germans normally associate with tramways.
The system, as I understand it, is partially built on disused existing
railways, and partially on-street. The tramway does not enter central
London - though there has been talk of new tramways in Central London in
the future.

Manchester is probably the largest British city with a reasonably-sized
tramway - I don't count Birmingham as I'm not familiar enough with it, and
it's one line with no city centre street running. Manchester's Metrolink
is (like Croydon, but even more so) an odd hybrid. The majority of its
running is on the alignment of former railways from Manchester Victoria to
Bury, and from Deansgate to Altrincham, with a street-running section in
the middle. It uses high-floor trams, and high (British height) platforms
in the city centre.

Recently (in the last 3 years or so) a new section has been opened to
Eccles with significant street running. This section has come into a
number of problems - street running is slow, and the trams do not
accelerate/brake as fast as buses, nor are they able to steer around
obstacles. While it serves the Salford Quays business district well, it
does not serve Eccles adequately - the journey can be made in half the
time by bus as by tram, as the bus route is more direct. There are plans
to convert more rail lines (the Oldham loop) and for some more street
running in the future (including the Airport link mentioned by another
poster).

Metrolink has had a number of problems. Fares are high - but this is not
relevant to Germany as it results from the fact that operational subsidy
of the system is not permitted (i.e. it has to make a profit). This is a
political problem in the UK. Its main problem is in quality of service
and capacity. In nearby Liverpool, a metro-style system similar to an
S-Bahn (full-size heavy rail with underground sections) operates over
similar lines, and is widely recognised as providing a far better (albeit
heavily-subsidised) service. Ideally, Manchester would have had such a
metro service, but for the Government withdrawing funding for it in the
1980s.

Another issue in the UK is regarding bus operation. Outside London, bus
services are operated commercially, with only non-profitable services
under local council or Passenger Transport Executive (similar to a
Verkehrsverbund but with fewer powers of regulation) control and funding.
This means that, by introducing a tramway, the PTE can gain power over
services which they may otherwise not have had.

Bus services over here (again, outside London) are also operated on a
different basis to Germany, and Hamburg in particular. Few of Hamburg's
routes serve the city centre, instead connecting with the rail system. In
contrast, UK bus routes tend to run direct into city centres. Operation
is slower, with passengers being required to board at the front and pay
the driver (or show a pass). No effort is made to link services with one
another, and no through single ticketing is generally available (though
day passes do tend to be available).

Only in London, and only recently, has it been discovered that a good
halfway-house can be reached by operating buses like trams, with all-door
boarding, planned connections and off-bus ticketing. Not only that, but
outside London, buses are often considered lower-class, and many will use
trams but not buses. This stigma did not appear to exist in Hamburg, or
certainly not to the same extent.

So, where am I going with this? Well, I'd say that before a tramway is
considered, serious consideration needs to be given to whether a bus
service (with a similar amount of money spent on it as the tram) would not
offer a better or equivalent service. I point specifically to services
like bus 102 (MetroBus 2 these days?) past the University, which is
effectively a rubber-tyred tram. This did (when I used it) suffer extreme
overcrowding - but doubling the number of buses may well have provided an
equally effective and cheaper solution to this problem than laying tracks.

If buses *really* aren't suitable, I'll go onto your point about the
vehicles themselves. Modern trams are nothing like their predecessors
(which can still be experienced running in the UK on the Blackpool Tramway
- the only "original" UK tramway which was not closed down and replaced
with buses). They are modern, light rail vehicles which can be built to
be as comfortable as required. A good low-floor tram can have comfort
levels similar to the low-floor diesel trains appearing on regional lines
in Germany. Ride is generally good (except in Manchester, but that's
because of the state of the track) and quiet, with good acceleration.
Comfort levels are generally substantially higher than on buses.

Sorry if this hasn't been what you were looking for (I'm not pro-tram in
every situation - I think buses and heavy rail can provide a better
solution in many cases, with trams being selected only for political
reasons) - but if you want any more information please don't hesitate to
get back in touch, either on the group or by e-mail (please use neil at
the above domain, else I won't get your e-mail).

Neil

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:16:32 GMT, (Mathias
Boelckow) wrote:

Kat schrieb/wrote uns/us:

Does anyone here know people, who are definitely familiar with the Croydon
Tramway and may be interested to introduce this to a Hamburgian audience?
German would be great but (educated) English will be widely understood.

I believe there's someone who posts here who would be perfect.

Fast reply! I hoped so. So you do think, that someone will answer?

Gruß, Mathias Bölckow

You could always try London Buses - they're part of TfL




Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Robert Woolley schrieb/wrote uns/us:

Does anyone here know people, who are definitely familiar with the Croydon
Tramway and may be interested to introduce this to a Hamburgian audience?
German would be great but (educated) English will be widely understood.

I believe there's someone who posts here who would be perfect.

Fast reply! I hoped so. So you do think, that someone will answer?

You could always try London Buses - they're part of TfL

Thanks for your answer. OK, maybe in the UK the official way is successful.
In Germany its better to contact the known enthusiasts.

Gruß, Mathias Bölckow

"Mathias Boelckow" wrote in message
...

OK, maybe in the UK the official way is successful.
In Germany its better to contact the known enthusiasts.

Did Scott McIntosh ever succeed in contacting you? I understand there was
some difficulty in getting through to your email address. His
professionalism *and* enthusiasm will not disappoint.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes