petrol/electric hybrid vans - why not?


It is a no brainer for any logistics company to switch to petrol/
electric van:

_it will make big savings in fuel cost.

_exempt from the congestion charge

_electric motors are the reliable

I don't know why those companies(like Ford, Vauxhall, Citroen and
Mercedes Benz) are not using them and
car companies are not building them?

At present the technology has not progressed sufficiently to make them feasible for vans and lorries.

I drive a Toyota Prius which is a petrol/electric hybrid and has been ingeniously designed. However, and remember this is a fairly small car, the electric motor functions only up to 28 mph - and then only on the level or downhill with the driver going easy on the accelerator. If the driver stamps on the accelerator, for example to get away quickly or to climb a hill, the car automatically switches to the petrol engine because the driver is demanding more than the electric motor can provide.

In addition the battery needs to be recharged constantly by the petrol engine and the braking system. If the battery is running low, again the car switches automatically to the petrol engine, even at speeds below 28 mph.

As vans and lorries carry far heavier loads than cars do, a massively more powerful electric motor will be necessary and probably an entire array of batteries as well.

I imagine the main motor manufacturers are investigating possibilities for goods vehicles including diesel/electric hybrids.

On Sat, 19 May 2012 17:20:35 +0100, Robin9 wrote:

I imagine the main motor manufacturers are investigating possibilities
for goods vehicles including diesel/electric hybrids.

Isn't the new "London Bus" such a hybrid? Given that the carrying
capacity of most vehicles is related to the size, I don't see why a Prius
sized "car-derived-van" couldn't use the Prius system, nor why it can't
be upscaled to match the increased vehicle size for eg ford transit /
mercedes sprint / vw transporter etc sized vehicles.

Rgds

Denis McMahon

On Sat, 19 May 2012 23:36:40 +0000 (UTC), Denis McMahon
wrote:

On Sat, 19 May 2012 17:20:35 +0100, Robin9 wrote:

I imagine the main motor manufacturers are investigating possibilities
for goods vehicles including diesel/electric hybrids.

Isn't the new "London Bus" such a hybrid? Given that the carrying
capacity of most vehicles is related to the size, I don't see why a Prius
sized "car-derived-van" couldn't use the Prius system, nor why it can't
be upscaled to match the increased vehicle size for eg ford transit /
mercedes sprint / vw transporter etc sized vehicles.

Probably because a Prius isn't much more economical than a modern euro
diesel, but is much more expensive. Diesels don't sell in the US car
market, hence the need for hybrid petrol cars. But commercial vehicles
are usually diesels, even in the US, and the benefits of hybrid
propulsion are smaller for diesels (as they're more efficient in
part-load conditions). The NB4L is a range-extender (similar to the
Ampera), and they tend to be more efficient, particularly if you
charge the batteries overnight at lower cost.

The Prius is far more economical (in terms of fuel consumption) than a
diesel engine car when driving at low speeds in urban streets
with innumerable stops for traffic signals and other vehicles.
On open roads, particularly motorways, a diesel is more economical.
Previously I was driving a diesel engine car and I'm very conscious
of the difference in my fuel consumption!

Hybrid technology based on a diesel engine is available - the Peugeot/Citroen gruop recently launched this. It's available in cars such as the Citroen DS5 or Peugeot 3008. (Though the roads tests I've seen suggest the automated gearbox is dreadfully jerky - no doubt that can be improved).

I don't think it's a "no brainer" for vans. A few thoughts.
(1) The diesel hybrid power-train is more expensive than a plain diesel engine. Most commercial vehicles are bought down to cost - the buyers won't stand the additional purchase cost.
(2) Fleet managers are oonservative and slow to adapt to new technology. Their vehicles do huge mileages - but as this diesel hybrid powertrain is so new, there is no "real world" reliability data
(3) The battery pack adds weight - which reduces the available payload of the van. My hunch is that this will be the most difficult hurdle to overcome.

On Tue, 22 May 2012 00:07:07 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hybrid technology based on a diesel engine is available - the Peugeot/Citroen gruop recently launched this. It's available in cars such as the Citroen DS5 or Peugeot 3008. (Though the roads tests I've seen suggest the automated gearbox is dreadfully jerky - no doubt that can be improved).

I don't think it's a "no brainer" for vans. A few thoughts.
(1) The diesel hybrid power-train is more expensive than a plain diesel engine. Most commercial vehicles are bought down to cost - the buyers won't stand the additional purchase cost.
(2) Fleet managers are oonservative and slow to adapt to new technology. Their vehicles do huge mileages - but as this diesel hybrid powertrain is so new, there is no "real world" reliability data
(3) The battery pack adds weight - which reduces the available payload of the van. My hunch is that this will be the most difficult hurdle to overcome.

That's all true, and I might add that the limited life of the battery
pack may also be an issue. They're expensive to replace, and won't
last as long as the rest of the power train.

Recliner wrote:
On Tue, 22 May 2012 00:07:07 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Hybrid technology based on a diesel engine is available - the Peugeot/Citroen gruop recently launched this. It's available in cars such as the Citroen DS5 or Peugeot 3008. (Though the roads tests I've seen suggest the automated gearbox is dreadfully jerky - no doubt that can be improved).

I don't think it's a "no brainer" for vans. A few thoughts.
(1) The diesel hybrid power-train is more expensive than a plain diesel engine. Most commercial vehicles are bought down to cost - the buyers won't stand the additional purchase cost.
(2) Fleet managers are oonservative and slow to adapt to new technology. Their vehicles do huge mileages - but as this diesel hybrid powertrain is so new, there is no "real world" reliability data
(3) The battery pack adds weight - which reduces the available payload of the van. My hunch is that this will be the most difficult hurdle to overcome.

That's all true, and I might add that the limited life of the battery
pack may also be an issue. They're expensive to replace, and won't
last as long as the rest of the power train.


The life of the battery packs and their cost of replacement shouldn't
feature. New vans are bought with a (usually) 3- to (exceptionally)
5-year lifespan in mind and battery packs can be expected to last
considerably longer than that.

But the comparatively huge initial cost of the battery pack is a real
problem because it cannot easily be written off over three years.
Perhaps the answer would be to buy the van and lease the battery pack,
a model that Renault is using for its electric cars - and possibly
also its vans?

Mercedes is also proposing this for the Smart ED electric car. I
signed up for one last year, but the leasing cost is proving
prohibitive. Together with the problems of charging the vehicle
(there is no off-road parking available for it) I have reluctantly
withdrawn and bought a small petrol car instead.

On Tue, 22 May 2012 11:02:31 +0100
Bruce wrote:
The life of the battery packs and their cost of replacement shouldn't
feature. New vans are bought with a (usually) 3- to (exceptionally)
5-year lifespan in mind and battery packs can be expected to last
considerably longer than that.

Not necessarily. Its usage more than age that kills the batteries. In that
time your average van could do 200K miles and no battery pack yet on the
market is guaranteed for that mileage.

B2003

On Tue, 22 May 2012 10:04:47 +0000 (UTC), d
wrote:

On Tue, 22 May 2012 11:02:31 +0100
Bruce wrote:
The life of the battery packs and their cost of replacement shouldn't
feature. New vans are bought with a (usually) 3- to (exceptionally)
5-year lifespan in mind and battery packs can be expected to last
considerably longer than that.

Not necessarily. Its usage more than age that kills the batteries. In that
time your average van could do 200K miles and no battery pack yet on the
market is guaranteed for that mileage.

Yes, I think it's the number of recharging cycles, rather than the
chronological age, that determines the useful life of a battery pack,
so commercial vehicles are likely to get through them much more
rapidly than private cars. In any case, the resale value of the van
will be significantly diminished if the battery pack is nearing the
end of its life.