On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 07:28:19AM -0700, ian batten wrote:

It's unlikely that RPIs know the law any more than policemen do (cf.
the endless photography debate). Section 2 of the Conditions of
Carriage makes it absolutely clear that the only places you have to
buy a ticket from, if possible, are an open ticket office or a TVM.
You don't have to go and look elsewhere. However, if you boarded a
train without a ticket, made no effort to find the conductor, and got
gripped some time later, then fairly obvious inferences can be drawn
about your intent to pay.

I wouldn't bother looking for a conductor. The vast majority of the
trains I use don't have 'em. And on the few trains I use which *do*
have them, they come through the train regularly. Therefore there is
never any point looking for them.

--
David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire

Vegetarian: n: a person who, due to poor lifestyle choices,
is more likely to get arse cancer than a normal person

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 12:27:34PM -0700, ian batten wrote:
On May 24, 7:41=A0pm, Graham Nye wrote:
I note the rise of adverts where URLs for further information are
deliberately obscured from non-smartphone users:
No, they've just made a decision that people who don't use smartphones
but who are also a potential market for their product aren't a large
enough set to worry about.

Not that QR codes are particularly useful for smartphone users either.
The time taken to get your phone out, find the app, wait for it to
start, try a few times to get it to take a picture of the stupid code -
it's just as quick to type in a short URL. And it's just plain
impossible to decode one off the side of a moving bus, for example.

QR codes are utterly pointless for everything apart from stock control,
as far as I can tell.

--
David Cantrell | even more awesome than a panda-fur coat

People from my sort of background needed grammar schools to
compete with children from privileged homes like ... Tony Benn
-- Margaret Thatcher

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 06:46:22AM -0700, ian batten wrote:

However, the Penalty Fares system quite clearly says "If you are
unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from
the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.". Are there
any PF areas which also use one-man operation?

Southern's local services in London.

--
David Cantrell | Bourgeois reactionary pig

Wow, my first sigquoting! I feel so special now!
-- Dan Sugalski

"ian batten" wrote in message
...
On May 25, 1:55 pm, CJB wrote:

Yes - but most (all?) of the ticket machines have been altered so as
not to take cash. Only the PTT machines could take cash. Now these
latter are all out-of-contract and are being removed or left switched
off. However the law states that a PTT MUST be purchased if a normal
ticket cannot - yet it is now impossible to purchase a PTT.

It's going to come down to a debate about the precise meaning of
section 2 in the conditions of carriage (and isn't it a pain that the
paragraphs aren't numbered properly)?


Thanks for the analysis, but what is needed is information as to how a
passenger is treated in practice if he boarded at a station with no open
ticket office and where the only machines were set to card only (or accepted
cash but did not give change, or restricted the cash they would accept
(notes only, or no notes). If the passenger wished to pay in cash but
couldn't, and then approached the guard (if there was one) or barrier staff
at an interchange or destination (if the train was DOO) and explained what
he wanted and why he hadn't been able to buy a ticket before, would he be
- sold the ticket he should have been able to obtain at the start of his
journey (e.g Railcard discount)
- only sold a full fare ticket
- issued with a penalty fare
- waved through as it was too much bother?
What do staff instructions say?

Peter

"Max Demian" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 May 2012 23:56:06 -0700 (PDT), Jonathan Harris
wrote:

There is a major problem with PTT machines in that they encouraged
people to pay 5 pence for a journey and then not pay at the
destination even if they had more cash in their possession.

What do you mean by "then not pay at the destination"? do you mean
refuse to pay, or avoid payment by dodging any barriers or ticket
inspectors? If the former, presumably the rail companies have some way
of dealing with non-payers. If the latter, they could dodge payment
whether the PTT machines existed or not.

Permit To Travel machines predate the widespread use of automatic ticket
barriers. In the old days it was frequently possible to travel between two
stations and not encounter any ticket inspection whatsoever at any point in
the journey, especially if you travelled off-peak and/or didn't start/finish
at one of the biggest stations. It was thus very easy to get a PTT for just
5p and if you did come across an inspector you could claim that the ticket
machines at the start of your journey weren't giving change or taking notes
(something an inspector on the train or at another station could not verify)
and produce a £5 (or higher) note and pay your fare. If you didn't get
inspected and just walked out of the station at your destination then there
was nothing the rail companies could do. Thus a lot of people fare dodged
but could never be charged because the system allowed them to pay on the
rare occasions they encountered an inspector.

--
My blog: http://adf.ly/4hi4c

ian batten wrote

What happens if there are two station, one of which has a machine
which is designed to take only cards

Then it is in full working order if it only accepts cards, although
it's not clear that such machines exist.

They do, although I've only seen them for definite at some big terminals.
However I must admit I don't tend to look too much at ticket machines these
days.

However, if you boarded a
train without a ticket, made no effort to find the conductor, and got
gripped some time later, then fairly obvious inferences can be drawn
about your intent to pay.

A conductor is a very rare thing on trains in London, to the point that one
can reasonably expect a train to *not* have one on them. On the rare
occasions I've had to use PTTs (my local station has the ticket office in a
side room from the entrance hall, when closed the room is sealed off and
there was a period up until a few years ago when all the TVMs where in
there) I've never expected to be able to sort things out on the train.
--
My blog: http://adf.ly/4hi4c

In uk.railway Jethro_uk twisted the electrons to say:
Drifting OT here, but it was amusing yesterday, to see the mask slip at
Facebook, when a FB exec jokingly said that they *really* needed people
to click on ads, now they are expected to make a profit:

Well you know the "real reason" that Facebook went public? They couldn't
understand the privacy options either ...
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

"CJB" wrote in message
...

... However the law states that a PTT MUST be purchased if a normal
ticket cannot - yet it is now impossible to purchase a PTT. So either
new PTT machine must be provided or the law has to be changed. Its a
catch-22 for customers that cannot be acceptable. CJB.

Please cite this law you keep referring to.

The way you are going on and on about it you must have a copy available.

FWIW permit to travel machines are not mentioned at all in the penalty fare
regulations...

Paul

In message , at 16:39:53 on Fri, 25 May
2012, Alistair Gunn remarked:
Well you know the "real reason" that Facebook went public? They couldn't
understand the privacy options either ...

A very old joke (well, in cyberspace terms). They might also be aware
that their revenue model is in danger of imploding (because of the
migration from PCs to mobile), so get out while you can.
--
Roland Perry

On 25/05/2012 15:45, Peter Masson wrote:


- waved through as it was too much bother?

This used to happen a fair amount when I used to travel on a direct
between unstaffed stations where the machines didn't offer the
destination I needed. These days the machines are more sophisticated,
the stations are staffed for longer and the trains are DOO.


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK