"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
Permit To Travel machines predate the widespread use of automatic ticket
barriers. In the old days it was frequently possible to travel between two
stations and not encounter any ticket inspection whatsoever at any point in
the journey, especially if you travelled off-peak and/or didn't start/finish
at one of the biggest stations. It was thus very easy to get a PTT for just
5p and if you did come across an inspector you could claim that the ticket
machines at the start of your journey weren't giving change or taking notes
(something an inspector on the train or at another station could not verify)
and produce a £5 (or higher) note and pay your fare.


While doing this, you would have to be careful not to jangle the other
coins in your pocket. That would give the lie to your claim of having
only 5p.

The problem with the Permit to Travel machines is that they were based
on trust. If it was ever safe to trust people with this kind of
system (some would say that in the 1950s and 60s, it was) it certainly
isn't now.

On Fri, 25 May 2012 15:12:58 +0100, David Cantrell wrote:

QR codes are utterly pointless for everything apart from stock control,
as far as I can tell.

They are useful on business cards. Typing in contact information takes a
lot longer than scanning a QR code.

Where they definitley are useless, are on ads on Underground station
platforms with no internet access.

--
jhk

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote

ian batten wrote

What happens if there are two station, one of which has a machine
which is designed to take only cards

Then it is in full working order if it only accepts cards, although
it's not clear that such machines exist.

They do, although I've only seen them for definite at some big
terminals.

So what if the machine does take cash (not cards) but currently doesn't
give change ?

Not NR but Tramlink, today (only half the party had London Freedom
passes).

Phipps Bridge has two machines, one knackered (display looping between
'please wait' and unreadable hash) the other displayed 'change' at the
top and 'no change' when you got that far. When you asked for multiple
tickets to minimise the loss it seemed to say 'no tickets'.

So one of my party of Wandle path walkers pressed the stop's "advice"
button and got a code to use if we were gripped. I assume this is the
equivalent of the PTT, but the scheme would work at most unmanned NR
stations if set up the same way.

--
Mike D

On 25/05/2012 21:39, Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
Tim wrote

ian batten wrote

What happens if there are two station, one of which has a machine
which is designed to take only cards

Then it is in full working order if it only accepts cards, although
it's not clear that such machines exist.

They do, although I've only seen them for definite at some big
terminals.

So what if the machine does take cash (not cards) but currently doesn't
give change ?

Not NR but Tramlink, today (only half the party had London Freedom
passes).

"If the ticket machine runs out of change, you can choose to be issued
with a refund voucher instead, which can be changed at the Tramlink
shop, in person or by post. We will refund postage costs."
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...user-guide.pdf


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Bruce wrote:
Permit To Travel machines predate the widespread use of automatic ticket
barriers. In the old days it was frequently possible to travel between two
stations and not encounter any ticket inspection whatsoever at any point
in
the journey, especially if you travelled off-peak and/or didn't
start/finish
at one of the biggest stations. It was thus very easy to get a PTT for
just
5p and if you did come across an inspector you could claim that the ticket
machines at the start of your journey weren't giving change or taking
notes
(something an inspector on the train or at another station could not
verify)
and produce a £5 (or higher) note and pay your fare.

While doing this, you would have to be careful not to jangle the other
coins in your pocket. That would give the lie to your claim of having
only 5p.

You could plead coppers, which I can't recall PTTs or TVMs taking.
Alternatively use a wallet with a tight coin compartment or a separate coin
holder.

The problem with the Permit to Travel machines is that they were based
on trust. If it was ever safe to trust people with this kind of
system (some would say that in the 1950s and 60s, it was) it certainly
isn't now.

True but it's the vicious circle that if machines go down and/or are locked
away for the evening and weekends (as used to happen at my local station)
then there are few ways to legitimately obtain a ticket at the start of your
journey. I've had problems with my Oyster running out in the past, primarily
when on the student discount because thanks to annual reregistration at the
college and TfL annually issuing a new card I invariably had a gap each year
between my season ticket expiring and being able to get a new one with the
sizable discount. Because TfL staff always refused to transfer credit from
my old to my new cards (and because this was before National Rail signed up
to PAYG which made it even less useful in this part of town) I generally
didn't keep much on them anyway.

--
My blog: http://adf.ly/4hi4c

Paul Scott wrote:

In the SWT area, there are a fair proportion of card only machines, but
AFAIAA only where multiple machines are fitted alongside one another. IMX
when there is only one machine it is card and cash, but I have heard of
remote areas of FGW's network where the dual machines were initially
installed but the cash option subsequently removed after to repeated theft
attempts..

Which brings another combination to the mess - a machine designed to take
both cash and cards but which has had the cash option deliberately switched
off. Is that in "full working order"?

--
My blog: http://adf.ly/4hi4c

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
Bruce wrote:
While doing this, you would have to be careful not to jangle the other
coins in your pocket. That would give the lie to your claim of having
only 5p.

You could plead coppers, which I can't recall PTTs or TVMs taking.
Alternatively use a wallet with a tight coin compartment or a separate coin
holder.


That you have obviously thought about this worries me a little. ;-)

On Friday, 25 May 2012 17:39:59 UTC+1, Paul Scott wrote:

... However the law states that a PTT MUST be purchased if a normal
ticket cannot - yet it is now impossible to purchase a PTT. So either
new PTT machine must be provided or the law has to be changed. Its a
catch-22 for customers that cannot be acceptable. CJB.

Please cite this law you keep referring to.

The way you are going on and on about it you must have a copy available.

FWIW permit to travel machines are not mentioned at all in the penalty fare
regulations...

I'd like to see them as well.
It doesn't matter, though. In this case a ticket inspector should always issue a penalty fare which the punter will be happy to accept knowing that his appeal will be successful.

On May 26, 3:29*am, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
Paul Scott wrote:
In the SWT area, there are a fair proportion of card only machines, but
AFAIAA only where multiple machines are fitted alongside one another. *IMX
when there is only one machine it is card and cash, but I have heard of
remote areas of FGW's network where the dual machines were initially
installed but the cash option subsequently removed after to repeated theft
attempts..

Which brings another combination to the mess - a machine designed to take
both cash and cards but which has had the cash option deliberately switched
off. Is that in "full working order"?

--
My blog:http://adf.ly/4hi4c

And not only rural areas. The same pertains to all stations between
Reading and Paddington if not further afield. All the FGW machines are
designed to take cards and cash and some work with Oyster too. Yet the
cash function has been disabled with extreme reluctance by FGW to
restore this. Hence the original problem - with no means to purchase
tickets by cash and without any PTT machines what is the legal
standing of tavelling without a normal ticket or a PTT?

As an aside the ticket machines are actually rented by SWT / FGW /
etc. So I suspect that the owner has dictated to FGW etc. that the
cash function should be disabled to save its precious machines from
vandalism. And FGW etc. have simply done so therebye inconveniencing
loads of its customers. The owner of the said machines obviously
doesn't give a damn about customer service of lack of it, only about
the machines. This would explain FGW's reluctance to restore the cash
function - the actual owner has said 'No way!'

Yet all stations have CCTV - which appears to not deter vandals. So
either the CCTV does not work or it is not being used. In which case
installing it is a waste of time. Which in turn does not say much for
providing safety for passengers.

CJB.

"CJB" wrote in message
...

And not only rural areas. The same pertains to all stations between
Reading and Paddington if not further afield. All the FGW machines are
designed to take cards and cash and some work with Oyster too. Yet the
cash function has been disabled with extreme reluctance by FGW to
restore this. Hence the original problem - with no means to purchase
tickets by cash and without any PTT machines what is the legal
standing of tavelling without a normal ticket or a PTT?

You pay on the train or at the destination. This is clearly explained in
the conditions of carriage.

I can only assume that, because others have mentioned this already, you are
now wilfully ignoring the facts. Given that there is no legal requirement
for PTT machines either, why do you still go on?

Paul S