In message , at
01:01:47 on Sat, 26 May 2012, Offramp remarked:
a ticket inspector should always issue a penalty fare which the punter
will be happy to accept knowing that his appeal will be successful.

Not very tourist-friendly though.
--
Roland Perry

Bruce wrote:

While doing this, you would have to be careful not to jangle the other
coins in your pocket. That would give the lie to your claim of having
only 5p.

You could plead coppers, which I can't recall PTTs or TVMs taking.
Alternatively use a wallet with a tight coin compartment or a separate
coin
holder.

That you have obviously thought about this worries me a little. ;-)


No it's because I have a separate coin holder myself and it easily springs
to mind.
--
My blog: http://adf.ly/4hi4c

Paul Scott wrote:

And not only rural areas. The same pertains to all stations between
Reading and Paddington if not further afield. All the FGW machines are
designed to take cards and cash and some work with Oyster too. Yet the
cash function has been disabled with extreme reluctance by FGW to
restore this. Hence the original problem - with no means to purchase
tickets by cash and without any PTT machines what is the legal
standing of tavelling without a normal ticket or a PTT?

You pay on the train or at the destination. This is clearly explained in
the conditions of carriage.


In which case many staff at destination barriers appear to be unfamiliar
with the CoC, given the reports of their reactions and treatment of
passengers in such situations.
--
My blog: http://adf.ly/4hi4c

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
Bruce wrote:
While doing this, you would have to be careful not to jangle the other
coins in your pocket. That would give the lie to your claim of having
only 5p.

You could plead coppers, which I can't recall PTTs or TVMs taking.
Alternatively use a wallet with a tight coin compartment or a separate
coin
holder.

That you have obviously thought about this worries me a little. ;-)


No it's because I have a separate coin holder myself and it easily springs
to mind.


A separate coin holder? Serious stuff. ;-)

CJB wrote in
:

Yes - but this doesn't stop the gateline staff at Ealing Broadway
and Paddington from bullying those who turn up without tickets.

Exactly. 100% correct.

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Paul Scott wrote:

You pay on the train or at the destination. This is clearly explained in
the conditions of carriage.

In which case many staff at destination barriers appear to be unfamiliar
with the CoC, given the reports of their reactions and treatment of
passengers in such situations.

Sure, but that's a separate issue of training, and poor internal
communication about the operational state of TVMs or ticket office closures.

CJB has failed to prove that PTT machines are a legal requirement, which is
the main plank of his argument...

Paul S

In message , at 11:30:53 on
Sun, 27 May 2012, Paul Scott remarked:
CJB has failed to prove that PTT machines are a legal requirement,
which is the main plank of his argument...

iirc they are requirement if you want to operate a "Penalty Fares"
scheme. Which isn't compulsory, and there are several others things you
are supposed to "get right" as well, in order for the scheme to be
passed by the DfT.

What's less clear is what happens when some of the qualifications rot
away...
--
Roland Perry

On May 27, 2:42*pm, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:30:53 on
Sun, 27 May 2012, Paul Scott remarked:

CJB has failed to prove that PTT machines are a legal requirement,
which is the main plank of his argument...

iirc they are requirement if you want to operate a "Penalty Fares"
scheme.

Why? PTT machines predate TVM machines, and a TVM is in essence a PTT
machine with more options. In the conditions of carriage, it's clear
that if you can't (for some value of can't) buy a ticket or a PTT,
then a PF can't be enforced. However, if you can (again, for some
value of can) buy a ticket, then not doing so and then complaining you
couldn't buy a PTT either won't avail. The doubt over "can" is this
issue of "is a TVM which does not take cash an opportunity to buy a
ticket?" and, in the end, that's something that only a court can
decide. I can't see why an operator can't under current regulations
offer only TVM machines and then waive the PF if you can convincingly
show that the TVM wasn't working (again, with the cash/card debate
still to be had).

In twenty years' time, the railways will be exclusively ITSO/Oyster,
with some magic so that you can just use your debit card directly as a
ticket. No one is going to get too excited over the precise details
of cash purchase of tickets, because it's clearly not going to last.
There might still be a facility, as there is now, to buy a pre-loaded
card with cash, but the presumption will be that every who wants to
travel will have an ITSO-alike in some form.

ian

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 11:30:53 on Sun,
27 May 2012, Paul Scott remarked:
CJB has failed to prove that PTT machines are a legal requirement, which
is the main plank of his argument...

iirc they are requirement if you want to operate a "Penalty Fares" scheme.

They clearly aren't nowadays - they may have been when TVMs outside stations
were unusual.

How else did SWT systematically remove them from every station they run
(with a few exceptions where there is no TVM)?

I've found an FOI request to the DfT for all the TOCs PF agreeements.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/penalty_fares_2

The three south of the river TOCs and Chiltern are in this file:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...20Chiltern.pdf

You'll see that in SWT's current version 9 agreement, they explain at
section 5.1 that they will only provide 5 PTT machines. SN and SE also
tabulate a number of stations without PTT machines.

These are the current agreements, according to the DfT. I therefore
reiterate that there is no legal requirement to provide a PTT (Pertis)
machine

Paul S

In message , at 16:41:44 on
Sun, 27 May 2012, Paul Scott remarked:
CJB has failed to prove that PTT machines are a legal requirement, which
is the main plank of his argument...

iirc they are requirement if you want to operate a "Penalty Fares" scheme.

They clearly aren't nowadays - they may have been when TVMs outside stations
were unusual.

How else did SWT systematically remove them from every station they run
(with a few exceptions where there is no TVM)?

I've found an FOI request to the DfT for all the TOCs PF agreeements.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/penalty_fares_2

The three south of the river TOCs and Chiltern are in this file:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...1/attach/4/Fil
e%201%20South%20Eastern%20Southern%20South%20West %20Trains%20and%20Chilt
ern.pdf

You'll see that in SWT's current version 9 agreement, they explain at
section 5.1 that they will only provide 5 PTT machines. SN and SE also
tabulate a number of stations without PTT machines.

These are the current agreements, according to the DfT. I therefore
reiterate that there is no legal requirement to provide a PTT (Pertis)
machine

I should have said "must provide a PTT if there is no way to buy a
ticket". Whether that's from a person or a machine doesn't matter.

Whether a machine restricted to one form of payment only is "working",
is a separate debate (and I don't claim to know the answer).

And I was trying to get away from "is a legal requirement" towards "is a
precondition for operating a PF scheme".
--
Roland Perry