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"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:

Conservatives are a party committed to the UK as a whole and its position in
the world.


What 'position in the world' would that be?

That of a third rate former Imperial nation? That of a third rate
former military power? That of a bankrupt former economic power?

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Bruce wrote:

Conservatives are a party committed to the UK as a whole and its position
in
the world.

What 'position in the world' would that be?

That of a third rate former Imperial nation? That of a third rate
former military power? That of a bankrupt former economic power?


Well to pull just one example off the top of my head, John Major always
believed that if Scotland went, so would the UK's permanent seat on the UN
Security Council (see his memoirs for more of this). Then there's the weight
in Europe (not all Conservatives want to pull out). The UK does punch above
its weight more than is often realised and isn't just a US satellite.
Breaking up the UK would reduce all that.
--
My blog: http://adf.ly/4hi4c

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"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Conservatives are a party committed to the UK as a whole and its position
in
the world.

What 'position in the world' would that be?

That of a third rate former Imperial nation? That of a third rate
former military power? That of a bankrupt former economic power?


Well to pull just one example off the top of my head, John Major always
believed that if Scotland went, so would the UK's permanent seat on the UN
Security Council (see his memoirs for more of this).

I'm not sure that you gain any credibility by quoting John Major, one
of the worst Prime Ministers the UK has ever had.

It wouldn't surprise me if the UK lost its permanent seat at the UN in
any case. That was based on the UK's position as a world power, which
was already in doubt when the UN was established at the end of WW2.

If Scotland left the UK, the UK would have nowhere to base its nuclear
submarines. I suppose that could be a tipping point vis-a-vis the UN
as our conventional forces lack any real credibility internationally.
Frankly, for a fairly small country whose wealth is severely depleted,
we should not be wasting so much money on nuclear weapons anyway.

Then there's the weight in Europe (not all Conservatives want to pull out).

The UK has no more "weight" in the EU than Denmark or Poland. We
should learn to recognise that fact, leave the EU and return to EFTA,
restoring our relationship with other European countries to one of
trade only. Our pathetically depleted armed forces could still
contribute to NATO.

The UK does punch above
its weight more than is often realised and isn't just a US satellite.

The UK isn't even a US satellite. We are far less important.

Breaking up the UK would reduce all that.

I don't think you have quoted any valid reasons for the UK to stay
together. I wish Alex Salmond and the Yes campaign in Scotland every
success, and look forward to seeing Scotland gain its independence
during what remains of my lifetime.

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In message , at 16:34:44 on
Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Bruce remarked:
If Scotland left the UK, the UK would have nowhere to base its nuclear
submarines.

I'm not sure why. Many superpowers (the US especially) berth their fleet
round the world in countries they don't govern.
--
Roland Perry

London Overground in chaos
 

Bruce wrote:

What 'position in the world' would that be?

That of a third rate former Imperial nation? That of a third rate
former military power? That of a bankrupt former economic power?

Well to pull just one example off the top of my head, John Major always
believed that if Scotland went, so would the UK's permanent seat on the UN
Security Council (see his memoirs for more of this).

I'm not sure that you gain any credibility by quoting John Major, one
of the worst Prime Ministers the UK has ever had.

Major's stock is slowly rising. For one thing thanks to him we don't have
the additional burden of being in a single currency that's liable to
collapse soon.

But more to the point his memoirs do go into the point and he had every
reason from experience to believe what he wrote on this.

It wouldn't surprise me if the UK lost its permanent seat at the UN in
any case. That was based on the UK's position as a world power, which
was already in doubt when the UN was established at the end of WW2.

At the time not to a full extreme, especially given some of the other
members. Reform of the Security Council has been proposed a number of times
but it's doubtful any of the existing permanents would be booted off because
of the real politick - more likely additionals would be added.

Then there's the weight in Europe (not all Conservatives want to pull
out).

The UK has no more "weight" in the EU than Denmark or Poland.

Numeric weight in the Council of Ministers is higher whether you value it or
not.

Breaking up the UK would reduce all that.

I don't think you have quoted any valid reasons for the UK to stay
together.

That was not the question. The question was about the UK's world position
that would be impacted on by Scottish independence. Whether you value those
aspects or not they are matters valued by the party in question, hence one
of the reasons it's not rushing to saw off a part of the country for
supposed electoral convenience.
--
My blog: http://adf.ly/4hi4c

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On 05/06/2012 16:48, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:34:44 on
Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Bruce remarked:
If Scotland left the UK, the UK would have nowhere to base its nuclear
submarines.

Plymouth


I'm not sure why. Many superpowers (the US especially) berth their fleet
round the world in countries they don't govern.

Where does the US berth boomers outside of its own bases?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

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In message , at 17:32:02 on Tue, 5 Jun 2012,
Graeme Wall remarked:

I'm not sure why. Many superpowers (the US especially) berth their fleet
round the world in countries they don't govern.

Where does the US berth boomers outside of its own bases?

Boomers? And it has numerous bases in countries they don't govern.
--
Roland Perry

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On 05/06/2012 18:01, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:32:02 on Tue, 5 Jun 2012,
Graeme Wall remarked:

I'm not sure why. Many superpowers (the US especially) berth their fleet
round the world in countries they don't govern.

Where does the US berth boomers outside of its own bases?

Boomers? And it has numerous bases in countries they don't govern.

Ballistic Missile Submarines, which is what the RN has based in Scotland

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

London Overground in chaos
 

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:

Bruce wrote:

What 'position in the world' would that be?

That of a third rate former Imperial nation? That of a third rate
former military power? That of a bankrupt former economic power?

Well to pull just one example off the top of my head, John Major always
believed that if Scotland went, so would the UK's permanent seat on the UN
Security Council (see his memoirs for more of this).

I'm not sure that you gain any credibility by quoting John Major, one
of the worst Prime Ministers the UK has ever had.

Major's stock is slowly rising.


Yes, the memory of the pain we felt does tend to dissipate after time.
I doubt that he will ever be granted the privilege of being remembered
as an average prime minister, and certainly not a good one. I don't
dislike the guy as he seemed reasonably honest and sincere, just not
competent in the job.


For one thing thanks to him we don't have
the additional burden of being in a single currency that's liable to
collapse soon.


You can thank the Tory Right for that, and subsequently Gordon Brown,
but not John Major, unless you are prepared to justify a major
re-writing of history. As Chancellor of the Exchequer under Margaret
Thatcher, John Major took the UK into the Exchange Rate Mechanism and,
as Prime Minister, ordered the massive rise in interest rates on Black
Wednesday. He was avowedly pro-ERM and pro-Euro.

I think some time spent reading about modern history would be very
helpful to you.

London Overground in chaos
 

In message , at 18:10:02 on Tue, 5 Jun 2012,
Graeme Wall remarked:
Where does the US berth boomers outside of its own bases?

Boomers? And it has numerous bases in countries they don't govern.

Ballistic Missile Submarines, which is what the RN has based in
Scotland

I don't know where they base any of them, even in USA.
--
Roland Perry