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In message , at 19:43:45 on
Tue, 12 Jun 2012, Jarle H Knudsen remarked:
Dedicated or prioritized (QoS) bandwidth for VoIP over DSL is no problem.
My DSL router is configured with a dedicated port for the VoIP adapter to
achieve this, together with some configuration on the DSLAM side.

QoS won't help you if there is congestion at the exchange or anywhere along
the line.

While this is true, if you get a VoIP number from your internet provider,
the calls will not be routed over the regular Inernet, so this will not be
a problem.

Which doesn't help if the congestion is between your exchange and your
Internet provider (on the BT wholesale backhaul, normally). Which is
where the congestion experienced by most domestic users in the UK
occurs, unfortunately.

The point beeing that it's perfectly possible to provide the
same quality as POTS over IP.

It is, but only at some expense.
--
Roland Perry

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On 6/12/2012 9:01 AM, Neil Williams wrote:
Roland wrote:

I'd be expecting most of the calls from other landlines.

A generational thing I think. I have a landline but pretty much never use
it. As soon as I can get Internet access to my house without it (not a
cabled area) I will get rid of it.

Neil

I have a landline and a mobile. But I barely use the phone. I don't
text, either.

RC

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On 08/06/2012 15:04, Matthew Dickinson wrote:
Wifi seems to have been launched at Kings Cross St Pancras and Warren Street today.

There was a poster at Southwark today saying wi-fi would be there soon.

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On 12/06/2012 16:07, wrote:

Even if you were in a cabled area you'd have to pay for a Virgin Media
landline even if you didn't use it.


Not necessarily true - we've got a "tinternet and telly" package from
Virgin

Ian

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Ian Cunningham wrote:

Not necessarily true - we've got a "tinternet and telly" package from Virgin

We have such a package in the company flat in Switzerland as well.
Generally that sort of thing is offered on cable. It wouldn't take BT much
effort to offer it as well rather than the stupid idea that you have to pay
line rental and pay extra if you don't make any calls. The line would be
there, but it needn't be necessary to plug a phone into it, nor to be able
to call it.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

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In article

, (Neil Williams) wrote:

Ian Cunningham wrote:

Not necessarily true - we've got a "tinternet and telly" package
from Virgin

We have such a package in the company flat in Switzerland as well.
Generally that sort of thing is offered on cable. It wouldn't take BT
much effort to offer it as well rather than the stupid idea that you have
to pay line rental and pay extra if you don't make any calls. The line
would be there, but it needn't be necessary to plug a phone into it, nor
to be able to call it.

In this country you only have what you can agree with Virgin Media if you
want cable. It's a long time since I saw an offer that didn't have "plus £x
for a phone line" in the small print. As they will knock amounts off bills I
suspect you still pay for a landline even if you have a deal.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

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On 12 Jun 2012 19:06:35 GMT
Neil Williams wrote:
Jarle H Knudsen wrote:

While this is true, if you get a VoIP number from your internet provider,
the calls will not be routed over the regular Inernet, so this will not be
a problem. The point beeing that it's perfectly possible to provide the
same quality as POTS over IP.

Most office telephone systems are run over IP these days, indeed. Much
cheaper to install only one set of wiring.

Oh don't they just. If a bridge or router dies the phone system dies and
if you want to move a phone the bloody thing takes 2 minutes to reboot.
Its pathetic.

B2003

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On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 04:05:40 -0500
wrote:
In this country you only have what you can agree with Virgin Media if you
want cable. It's a long time since I saw an offer that didn't have "plus £x
for a phone line" in the small print. As they will knock amounts off bills I
suspect you still pay for a landline even if you have a deal.

We've got internet only with virgin. If they suddenly required us to pay
for a phone line too we dump them and go back to BT DSL.

B2003

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In article , d ()
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 04:05:40 -0500
wrote:
In this country you only have what you can agree with Virgin Media if you
want cable. It's a long time since I saw an offer that didn't have "plus
£x for a phone line" in the small print. As they will knock amounts off
bills I suspect you still pay for a landline even if you have a deal.

We've got internet only with virgin. If they suddenly required us to pay
for a phone line too we dump them and go back to BT DSL.

How much are you paying though? It could be the same as you would pay them
for internet plus phone.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

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On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 05:13:50 -0500
wrote:
In article , d ()
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 04:05:40 -0500
wrote:
In this country you only have what you can agree with Virgin Media if you
want cable. It's a long time since I saw an offer that didn't have "plus
£x for a phone line" in the small print. As they will knock amounts off
bills I suspect you still pay for a landline even if you have a deal.

We've got internet only with virgin. If they suddenly required us to pay
for a phone line too we dump them and go back to BT DSL.

How much are you paying though? It could be the same as you would pay them
for internet plus phone.

20 something a month. Can't remember the exact amount.

B2003

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In article , d ()
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 05:13:50 -0500
wrote:
In article , d ()
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 04:05:40 -0500
wrote:
In this country you only have what you can agree with Virgin Media if
you want cable. It's a long time since I saw an offer that didn't have
"plus £x for a phone line" in the small print. As they will knock
amounts off bills I suspect you still pay for a landline even if you
have a deal.

We've got internet only with virgin. If they suddenly required us to
pay for a phone line too we dump them and go back to BT DSL.

How much are you paying though? It could be the same as you would pay
them for internet plus phone.

20 something a month. Can't remember the exact amount.

Sounds the same as I pay, including a phone line.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

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On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:11:01AM +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

As for having a landline, I need it for ADSL. I also think it's a bit
rude to expect friends and family to call an expensive mobile number
rather than a landline.

I think it's a bit rude of people to expect me to pay to receieve calls
from them. Cos that's what having a landline would mean.

--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

Repent through spending

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On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 10:07:51AM -0500, wrote:

Even if you were in a cabled area you'd have to pay for a Virgin Media
landline even if you didn't use it.

These days they'll sell you interweb without phone service.

--
David Cantrell | top google result for "topless karaoke murders"

" In My Egotistical Opinion, most people's ... programs should be
indented six feet downward and covered with dirt. "
--Blair P. Houghton

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On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:20:52AM +0000, d wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:57:35 +0200
Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
According to this [1] article in Norwegian, the landline voice network in
Norway will be decommissioned before 2017. Telenor says spare parts are in
practice not produced any more and the suppliers will end support in 2017.
New telephones that looks like and is operated like a traditional
telephone, but with a mobile antenna, will be on sale, and also boxes you
can plug your old phone into. These will have much better antennas than
regular mobiles.
Sounds a very stupid decision made by people who only care about the bottom
line. Land lines allow emergency services to pinpoint someone precisely,
mobiles don't.

More and more phones these days have GPS, and in some countries there
are regulations saying that that data has to be available to the
emergency services.

--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

Godliness is next to Englishness

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In article ,
(David Cantrell) wrote:

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 10:07:51AM -0500,
wrote:

Even if you were in a cabled area you'd have to pay for a Virgin
Media landline even if you didn't use it.

These days they'll sell you interweb without phone service.

Evidence?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

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In message , at 13:08:31
on Wed, 13 Jun 2012, David Cantrell remarked:
As for having a landline, I need it for ADSL. I also think it's a bit
rude to expect friends and family to call an expensive mobile number
rather than a landline.

I think it's a bit rude of people to expect me to pay to receieve calls
from them. Cos that's what having a landline would mean.

So which rudeness is worse? At least the landline cost is fixed each
month, and not per minute of call made.
--
Roland Perry

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Roland Perry wrote:

So which rudeness is worse? At least the landline cost is fixed each
month, and not per minute of call made.

Is it also rude that I am out an awful lot and thus unlikely to answer my
landline except at a pre arranged time?

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

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In message

..net, at 18:37:23 on Wed, 13 Jun 2012, Neil Williams
remarked:
So which rudeness is worse? At least the landline cost is fixed each
month, and not per minute of call made.

Is it also rude that I am out an awful lot and thus unlikely to answer my
landline except at a pre arranged time?

No, that's just life; and your mileage varying. Someone is "in" at our
household most of the time.
--
Roland Perry

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On 12/06/2012 12:29, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:20:52 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:

Sounds a very stupid decision made by people who only care about the bottom
line. Land lines allow emergency services to pinpoint someone precisely,
mobiles don't. The "we can't get the parts argument" usually means "we don't
want to pay to upgrade the parts".

Telenor is currently loosing about 6,000 landline customers every month.
Norway has a population of just over 5,000,000.


There is also little point in trying to install any sort of fixed line
networks in parts of East Africa or the Republic of South Africa.

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On 12/06/2012 11:57, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:11:01 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 08:39:16 on Tue, 12 Jun
2012, d remarked:
It was also a very high-functioning cordless phone for use a home.
Despite several attempts, I don't think there's yet a comparable
solution that's caught on (a single phone to use cordless at home and
wireless at large).

That sounds like a solution that no longer has a problem. A lot of people
don't even have landlines at home now , they just rely on their mobiles.
Which is probably fine until there's an emergency and you can't find it.

Mobiles are much more common now, the Rabbit was withdrawn at the same
time as Hutchison PCN was launched - you probably know it as "Orange".

And it was several years after that before PAYG was introduced, so
mobile phones weren't just more per minute than a Rabbit, but typically
also needed a £30/month subscription. And obviously you had to but two
phones - a mobile and a cordless, because mobiles weren't free.

As for having a landline, I need it for ADSL. I also think it's a bit
rude to expect friends and family to call an expensive mobile number
rather than a landline.

According to this [1] article in Norwegian, the landline voice network in
Norway will be decommissioned before 2017. Telenor says spare parts are in
practice not produced any more and the suppliers will end support in 2017.
New telephones that looks like and is operated like a traditional
telephone, but with a mobile antenna, will be on sale, and also boxes you
can plug your old phone into. These will have much better antennas than
regular mobiles.

Apparently, the biggest challenge lies in converting systems relying on the
landline network, like burglar alarms, and safety alarms for the elderly.

[1] http://www.amobil.no/artikler/over-o...lefonen/110094


Kind of like analog television here in Britain. Are other European
countries planning to do this?

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On 12/06/2012 14:01, Neil Williams wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

I'd be expecting most of the calls from other landlines.

A generational thing I think. I have a landline but pretty much never use
it. As soon as I can get Internet access to my house without it (not a
cabled area) I will get rid of it.

Neil

I have never had a telephone in this flat as I my mobile plan is more
than suitable and I can pay pennies to call abroad via Skype from my
Internet connection.

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On 13/06/2012 14:41, David Cantrell wrote:
On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 10:07:51AM -0500, wrote:

Even if you were in a cabled area you'd have to pay for a Virgin Media
landline even if you didn't use it.

These days they'll sell you interweb without phone service.


That's what I have.

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On 12/06/2012 14:01, Neil Williams wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

As for having a landline, I need it for ADSL. I also think it's a bit
rude to expect friends and family to call an expensive mobile number
rather than a landline.

Not expensive if they are calling from their mobile and are also on a
contract with free minutes.

Indeed my latest O2 contract is for unlimited (no doubt with fair use
policy) calls to landlines and mobiles.

Neil

Yeah, but does the plan cover the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands?

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In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
13:08:31 on Wed, 13 Jun 2012, David Cantrell
remarked:
As for having a landline, I need it for ADSL. I also think it's a bit
rude to expect friends and family to call an expensive mobile number
rather than a landline.

I think it's a bit rude of people to expect me to pay to receieve calls
from them. Cos that's what having a landline would mean.

So which rudeness is worse? At least the landline cost is fixed each
month, and not per minute of call made.

What is this charging mode of which you speak?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

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" wrote:

Yeah, but does the plan cover the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands?

I have no idea, as I have no cause to call either of those, sorry...

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

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In message , at 17:05:25
on Wed, 13 Jun 2012, remarked:
As for having a landline, I need it for ADSL. I also think it's a bit
rude to expect friends and family to call an expensive mobile number
rather than a landline.

I think it's a bit rude of people to expect me to pay to receieve calls
from them. Cos that's what having a landline would mean.

So which rudeness is worse? At least the landline cost is fixed each
month, and not per minute of call made.

What is this charging mode of which you speak?

The cost to me of subsidising callers is a fixed mnthly rental, and
incoming calls are free.

The cost to others of subsidising me not having a landline varies, but
is normally an extra cost per minute on the calls (to my mobile).
--
Roland Perry

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On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:23:21 +0100
" wrote:
On 12/06/2012 14:01, Neil Williams wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

I'd be expecting most of the calls from other landlines.

A generational thing I think. I have a landline but pretty much never use
it. As soon as I can get Internet access to my house without it (not a
cabled area) I will get rid of it.

Neil

I have never had a telephone in this flat as I my mobile plan is more
than suitable and I can pay pennies to call abroad via Skype from my
Internet connection.

Of course when (not if for most people) you lose your phone you'll be
completely screwed until you get a replacement and give everyone your new
number.

B2003

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On 14/06/2012 09:56, d wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:23:21 +0100
wrote:
[snip]
I have never had a telephone in this flat as I my mobile plan is more
than suitable and I can pay pennies to call abroad via Skype from my
Internet connection.

Of course when (not if for most people) you lose your phone you'll be
completely screwed until you get a replacement and give everyone your new
number.

Or get a replacement handset and SIM, and then carry on using your
existing mobile number. (o2 will happily hand out a replacement SIM at
one of their shops.)

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On 14/06/2012 06:42, Neil Williams wrote:

wrote:

Yeah, but does the plan cover the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands?

I have no idea, as I have no cause to call either of those, sorry...

Inclusive minutes on mobile plans don't cover calls to IOM or the
Channel Islands (might be an exception somewhere but I doubt it, given
the interconnection fees).

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On 14/06/2012 11:35, Mizter T wrote:

On 14/06/2012 06:42, Neil Williams wrote:

wrote:

Yeah, but does the plan cover the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands?

I have no idea, as I have no cause to call either of those, sorry...

Inclusive minutes on mobile plans don't cover calls to IOM or the
Channel Islands (might be an exception somewhere but I doubt it, given
the interconnection fees).

And when I say interconnection fees, what I actually mean is termination
charges...

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On 14/06/2012 07:40, Roland Perry wrote:
[...]
The cost to me of subsidising callers is a fixed mnthly rental, and
incoming calls are free.

The cost to others of subsidising me not having a landline varies, but
is normally an extra cost per minute on the calls (to my mobile).

If they have a contract UK mobile with inclusive minutes (or a PAYG plan
that offers something similar), then calling from their mobile to yours
wouldn't incur extra expense. That's an *if* though, and there are other
factors such as availability of decent mobile reception for both the
calling and called parties.

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On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 11:32:40 +0100
Mizter T wrote:
Or get a replacement handset and SIM, and then carry on using your
existing mobile number. (o2 will happily hand out a replacement SIM at
one of their shops.)

How do you persuade the grunt at the desk that you really have lost it and
haven't just given it to your cousin as a hand-me-down?

B2003

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On 13/06/2012 17:32, wrote:

In o.uk,
(David Cantrell) wrote:

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 10:07:51AM -0500,
wrote:

Even if you were in a cabled area you'd have to pay for a Virgin
Media landline even if you didn't use it.

These days they'll sell you interweb without phone service.

Evidence?


VM broadband:
http://store.virginmedia.com/broadband/compare-broadband/index.html

VM phone line:
http://store.virginmedia.com/phone/phone-fibre-optic/compare-fibre-optic/index.html

Solo broadband is cheaper than taking broadband & phone line - yes, VM
do discount the broadband if you take a phone line as well, but the
total cost is still more. As ever, they'd prefer it if you took a bundle
and so both price and market their services accordingly - disentangling
the costs can take a bit of work.

However I'm pretty sure that when VM started offering solo broadband,
the cost was equivalent to a broadband + phone line bundle.

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In article , d ()
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:23:21 +0100
" wrote:
On 12/06/2012 14:01, Neil Williams wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

I'd be expecting most of the calls from other landlines.

A generational thing I think. I have a landline but pretty much never
use it. As soon as I can get Internet access to my house without it
(not a cabled area) I will get rid of it.

I have never had a telephone in this flat as I my mobile plan is more
than suitable and I can pay pennies to call abroad via Skype from my
Internet connection.

Of course when (not if for most people) you lose your phone you'll be
completely screwed until you get a replacement and give everyone your new
number.

I've never had to get a new number when I've lost a phone. I just get a new
SIM on the existing number.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

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On 14/06/2012 11:43, d wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 11:32:40 +0100
Mizter wrote:
Or get a replacement handset and SIM, and then carry on using your
existing mobile number. (o2 will happily hand out a replacement SIM at
one of their shops.)

How do you persuade the grunt at the desk that you really have lost it and
haven't just given it to your cousin as a hand-me-down?

The number gets re-associated with the new SIM, so the old SIM becomes
useless.

Re the procedure, I think I've done it two ways - in the shop they call
up the o2 call centre (likely via some non-public number), put you on
the phone to confirm it's your account (details & security check etc),
then the shop bod reads out the new SIM number to associate it with your
account and mobile number. Also I'm pretty sure I just managed to get
them to hand over a new SIM in the shop and then I called up o2 customer
services later and associated that with my account & mobile number.

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On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:43:55 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 11:32:40 +0100
Mizter T wrote:
Or get a replacement handset and SIM, and then carry on using your
existing mobile number. (o2 will happily hand out a replacement SIM at
one of their shops.)

How do you persuade the grunt at the desk that you really have lost it and
haven't just given it to your cousin as a hand-me-down?

Why would you have to to that? They just block the old SIM when they
replace it.

--
jhk

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On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 06:11:42 -0500
wrote:
Of course when (not if for most people) you lose your phone you'll be
completely screwed until you get a replacement and give everyone your new
number.

I've never had to get a new number when I've lost a phone. I just get a new
SIM on the existing number.

Fair enough. I've never lost a phone so I've not had to deal with all that.

B2003

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On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 12:13:32 +0100
Mizter T wrote:
On 14/06/2012 11:43, d wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 11:32:40 +0100
Mizter wrote:
Or get a replacement handset and SIM, and then carry on using your
existing mobile number. (o2 will happily hand out a replacement SIM at
one of their shops.)

How do you persuade the grunt at the desk that you really have lost it and
haven't just given it to your cousin as a hand-me-down?

The number gets re-associated with the new SIM, so the old SIM becomes
useless.

The SIM might be useless but you could still have given away or sold 400 quids
worth of phone and then claimed you lost it and got a free replacement.
Even if they block the IMEI number most smartphones can still use wifi.

B2003

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On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 13:13:49 +0200
Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:43:55 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 11:32:40 +0100
Mizter T wrote:
Or get a replacement handset and SIM, and then carry on using your
existing mobile number. (o2 will happily hand out a replacement SIM at
one of their shops.)

How do you persuade the grunt at the desk that you really have lost it and
haven't just given it to your cousin as a hand-me-down?

Why would you have to to that? They just block the old SIM when they
replace it.

Cousin buys new SIM for phone you've "lost".

B2003

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wrote:

How do you persuade the grunt at the desk that you really have lost it and
haven't just given it to your cousin as a hand-me-down?

Why should that matter? Mobile operators give out SIM cards for nowt all
the time. They are physically worth a couple of quid if that. You would
have to purchase the phone or claim on insurance. And the old one would be
blocked so useless anyway.

I can't imagine any questions being asked at all unless you did it every
other week.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.