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Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state-control
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control Sweeping reform would begin with renationalisation of key routes and end franchising of services Plans to bring the national rail network back under public ownership in order to halt big fare increases and prevent private companies siphoning off huge profits will be considered by Labour as part of its policy review, the Observer can reveal. An independent thinktank report out on Monday, which puts forward a detailed plan for effective renationalisation, was warmly welcomed by the party's transport spokeswoman, Maria Eagle, who said the study was timely and put forward a "coherent case for reform". The changes would amount to the biggest overhaul of the train system since British Rail was broken up in the mid-1990s and be seen as a deliberate pitch by Ed Miliband's party for millions of "commuter votes" in key marginal seats ahead of the next election. If adopted by Labour it would mean ending franchises as they come up for renewal on the east coast, west coast and midland mainlines – ousting the likes of Sir Richard Branson from one of the country's most profitable routes – and bringing the running of trains and infrastructure under one publicly owned and accountable company. Entitled Rebuilding Rail, the report by Transport for Quality of Life argues that rail operations and infrastructure should be reintegrated, franchising phased out and a democratic role given to passengers, the workforce and elected local and regional authorities. It says that the current fragmented system – under which the publicly owned Network Rail runs the infrastructure and private companies compete for franchise contracts to run trains – is failing taxpayers and passengers while benefiting private train operators and their shareholders, who are guaranteed taxpayer funds if profits fall below a certain level. The authors estimate that £1.2bn of public money has been lost each year as a direct result of privatisation and fragmentation, money that could have allowed fares to be 18% lower than at present. UK rail passengers, who already pay the highest fares in Europe, face further increases of at least 6% from next January. Making it clear that Labour agreed with many ideas in the report, which was funded by the main rail unions, Eagle said: "Under the current system we have unaccountable train companies given a licence to print money to operate a monopoly service at high cost to passengers in an industry that still relies on £4bn from taxpayers every year. "Increasingly franchises are run by subsidiaries of the German, French and Dutch state railways with profits helping deliver ticket prices in those countries that are a third of ours. Labour's policy review is therefore looking at all options to make our railways work better for passengers with nothing ruled out, including whether the not-for-dividend model that works for rail infrastructure should be extended to rail services." END QUOTE For the rest of the article, go to: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state-control |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 00:05:25 +0100, Bruce
wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state-control Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control Sweeping reform would begin with renationalisation of key routes and end franchising of services Plans to bring the national rail network back under public ownership in order to halt big fare increases and prevent private companies siphoning off huge profits will be considered by Labour as part of its policy review, the Observer can reveal. An independent thinktank report out on Monday, which puts forward a detailed plan for effective renationalisation, was warmly welcomed by the party's transport spokeswoman, Maria Eagle, who said the study was timely and put forward a "coherent case for reform". The changes would amount to the biggest overhaul of the train system since British Rail was broken up in the mid-1990s and be seen as a deliberate pitch by Ed Miliband's party for millions of "commuter votes" in key marginal seats ahead of the next election. If adopted by Labour it would mean ending franchises as they come up for renewal on the east coast, west coast and midland mainlines – ousting the likes of Sir Richard Branson from one of the country's most profitable routes – and bringing the running of trains and infrastructure under one publicly owned and accountable company. Entitled Rebuilding Rail, the report by Transport for Quality of Life argues that rail operations and infrastructure should be reintegrated, franchising phased out and a democratic role given to passengers, the workforce and elected local and regional authorities. It says that the current fragmented system – under which the publicly owned Network Rail runs the infrastructure and private companies compete for franchise contracts to run trains – is failing taxpayers and passengers while benefiting private train operators and their shareholders, who are guaranteed taxpayer funds if profits fall below a certain level. The authors estimate that £1.2bn of public money has been lost each year as a direct result of privatisation and fragmentation, money that could have allowed fares to be 18% lower than at present. UK rail passengers, who already pay the highest fares in Europe, face further increases of at least 6% from next January. Making it clear that Labour agreed with many ideas in the report, which was funded by the main rail unions, Eagle said: "Under the current system we have unaccountable train companies given a licence to print money to operate a monopoly service at high cost to passengers in an industry that still relies on £4bn from taxpayers every year. "Increasingly franchises are run by subsidiaries of the German, French and Dutch state railways with profits helping deliver ticket prices in those countries that are a third of ours. Labour's policy review is therefore looking at all options to make our railways work better for passengers with nothing ruled out, including whether the not-for-dividend model that works for rail infrastructure should be extended to rail services." END QUOTE For the rest of the article, go to: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state-control I'll believe it when I see it. Maybe they've conveniently forgotten to mention how they will achieve it without tripping over EU rules which will come as an "unexpected surprise" when they try it ? |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control- Guardian/Observer
On 01/07/2012 00:15, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 00:05:25 +0100, Bruce wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state-control Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control Sweeping reform would begin with renationalisation of key routes and end franchising of services Plans to bring the national rail network back under public ownership in order to halt big fare increases and prevent private companies siphoning off huge profits will be considered by Labour as part of its policy review, the Observer can reveal. An independent thinktank report out on Monday, which puts forward a detailed plan for effective renationalisation, was warmly welcomed by the party's transport spokeswoman, Maria Eagle, who said the study was timely and put forward a "coherent case for reform". The changes would amount to the biggest overhaul of the train system since British Rail was broken up in the mid-1990s and be seen as a deliberate pitch by Ed Miliband's party for millions of "commuter votes" in key marginal seats ahead of the next election. If adopted by Labour it would mean ending franchises as they come up for renewal on the east coast, west coast and midland mainlines – ousting the likes of Sir Richard Branson from one of the country's most profitable routes – and bringing the running of trains and infrastructure under one publicly owned and accountable company. Entitled Rebuilding Rail, the report by Transport for Quality of Life argues that rail operations and infrastructure should be reintegrated, franchising phased out and a democratic role given to passengers, the workforce and elected local and regional authorities. It says that the current fragmented system – under which the publicly owned Network Rail runs the infrastructure and private companies compete for franchise contracts to run trains – is failing taxpayers and passengers while benefiting private train operators and their shareholders, who are guaranteed taxpayer funds if profits fall below a certain level. The authors estimate that £1.2bn of public money has been lost each year as a direct result of privatisation and fragmentation, money that could have allowed fares to be 18% lower than at present. UK rail passengers, who already pay the highest fares in Europe, face further increases of at least 6% from next January. Making it clear that Labour agreed with many ideas in the report, which was funded by the main rail unions, Eagle said: "Under the current system we have unaccountable train companies given a licence to print money to operate a monopoly service at high cost to passengers in an industry that still relies on £4bn from taxpayers every year. "Increasingly franchises are run by subsidiaries of the German, French and Dutch state railways with profits helping deliver ticket prices in those countries that are a third of ours. Labour's policy review is therefore looking at all options to make our railways work better for passengers with nothing ruled out, including whether the not-for-dividend model that works for rail infrastructure should be extended to rail services." END QUOTE For the rest of the article, go to: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state-control I'll believe it when I see it. Maybe they've conveniently forgotten to mention how they will achieve it without tripping over EU rules which will come as an "unexpected surprise" when they try it ? Cannot the operating company and the infrastructure nonetheless be state-owned? |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 00:29:35 +0100, "
wrote: On 01/07/2012 00:15, Charles Ellson wrote: On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 00:05:25 +0100, Bruce wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state-control Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control Sweeping reform would begin with renationalisation of key routes and end franchising of services Plans to bring the national rail network back under public ownership in order to halt big fare increases and prevent private companies siphoning off huge profits will be considered by Labour as part of its policy review, the Observer can reveal. An independent thinktank report out on Monday, which puts forward a detailed plan for effective renationalisation, was warmly welcomed by the party's transport spokeswoman, Maria Eagle, who said the study was timely and put forward a "coherent case for reform". The changes would amount to the biggest overhaul of the train system since British Rail was broken up in the mid-1990s and be seen as a deliberate pitch by Ed Miliband's party for millions of "commuter votes" in key marginal seats ahead of the next election. If adopted by Labour it would mean ending franchises as they come up for renewal on the east coast, west coast and midland mainlines – ousting the likes of Sir Richard Branson from one of the country's most profitable routes – and bringing the running of trains and infrastructure under one publicly owned and accountable company. Entitled Rebuilding Rail, the report by Transport for Quality of Life argues that rail operations and infrastructure should be reintegrated, franchising phased out and a democratic role given to passengers, the workforce and elected local and regional authorities. It says that the current fragmented system – under which the publicly owned Network Rail runs the infrastructure and private companies compete for franchise contracts to run trains – is failing taxpayers and passengers while benefiting private train operators and their shareholders, who are guaranteed taxpayer funds if profits fall below a certain level. The authors estimate that £1.2bn of public money has been lost each year as a direct result of privatisation and fragmentation, money that could have allowed fares to be 18% lower than at present. UK rail passengers, who already pay the highest fares in Europe, face further increases of at least 6% from next January. Making it clear that Labour agreed with many ideas in the report, which was funded by the main rail unions, Eagle said: "Under the current system we have unaccountable train companies given a licence to print money to operate a monopoly service at high cost to passengers in an industry that still relies on £4bn from taxpayers every year. "Increasingly franchises are run by subsidiaries of the German, French and Dutch state railways with profits helping deliver ticket prices in those countries that are a third of ours. Labour's policy review is therefore looking at all options to make our railways work better for passengers with nothing ruled out, including whether the not-for-dividend model that works for rail infrastructure should be extended to rail services." END QUOTE For the rest of the article, go to: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state-control I'll believe it when I see it. Maybe they've conveniently forgotten to mention how they will achieve it without tripping over EU rules which will come as an "unexpected surprise" when they try it ? Cannot the operating company and the infrastructure nonetheless be state-owned? Indeed but IMU the work performed on it has to be publicly advertised to the rest of the EU and then awarded to the most suitable (not necessarily the cheapest) candidate not just to e.g. Mr Millipede's chosen recipient. Renationalising the infrastructure is probably the easy part but not the trains using it. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Jul 1, 12:29*am, "
wrote: On 01/07/2012 00:15, Charles Ellson wrote: On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 00:05:25 +0100, Bruce wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state.... Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control Sweeping reform would begin with renationalisation of key routes and end franchising of services Plans to bring the national rail network back under public ownership in order to halt big fare increases and prevent private companies siphoning off huge profits will be considered by Labour as part of its policy review, the Observer can reveal. An independent thinktank report out on Monday, which puts forward a detailed plan for effective renationalisation, was warmly welcomed by the party's transport spokeswoman, Maria Eagle, who said the study was timely and put forward a "coherent case for reform". The changes would amount to the biggest overhaul of the train system since British Rail was broken up in the mid-1990s and be seen as a deliberate pitch by Ed Miliband's party for millions of "commuter votes" in key marginal seats ahead of the next election. If adopted by Labour it would mean ending franchises as they come up for renewal on the east coast, west coast and midland mainlines – ousting the likes of Sir Richard Branson from one of the country's most profitable routes – and bringing the running of trains and infrastructure under one publicly owned and accountable company. Entitled Rebuilding Rail, the report by Transport for Quality of Life argues that rail operations and infrastructure should be reintegrated, franchising phased out and a democratic role given to passengers, the workforce and elected local and regional authorities. It says that the current fragmented system – under which the publicly owned Network Rail runs the infrastructure and private companies compete for franchise contracts to run trains – is failing taxpayers and passengers while benefiting private train operators and their shareholders, who are guaranteed taxpayer funds if profits fall below a certain level. The authors estimate that £1.2bn of public money has been lost each year as a direct result of privatisation and fragmentation, money that could have allowed fares to be 18% lower than at present. UK rail passengers, who already pay the highest fares in Europe, face further increases of at least 6% from next January. Making it clear that Labour agreed with many ideas in the report, which was funded by the main rail unions, Eagle said: "Under the current system we have unaccountable train companies given a licence to print money to operate a monopoly service at high cost to passengers in an industry that still relies on £4bn from taxpayers every year. "Increasingly franchises are run by subsidiaries of the German, French and Dutch state railways with profits helping deliver ticket prices in those countries that are a third of ours. Labour's policy review is therefore looking at all options to make our railways work better for passengers with nothing ruled out, including whether the not-for-dividend model that works for rail infrastructure should be extended to rail services." END QUOTE For the rest of the article, go to: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state.... I'll believe it when I see it. Maybe they've conveniently forgotten to mention how they will achieve it without tripping over EU rules which will come as an "unexpected surprise" when they try it ? Cannot the operating company and the infrastructure nonetheless be state-owned? Network Rail is a State Monopoly in everything but name. The Railways are as Government Controlled as they have ever been. Why would the UK go back to the dark days of British Railways? Better IMO to allow operating companies to buy the infrastructure. Then drop franchising, allow history to take its course (given neccessary regulation and grants for desirable, but loss-making services). |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
In message , at 00:05:25 on
Sun, 1 Jul 2012, Bruce remarked: Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control Sweeping reform would begin with renationalisation of key routes and end franchising of services Blair and Prescott promised lots of things last time around, and failed to deliver. Why would Labour act differently next time (assuming they ever get a next time). -- Roland Perry |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control -Guardian/Observer
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:44:19 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
Blair and Prescott promised lots of things last time around, and failed to deliver. Why would Labour act differently next time (assuming they ever get a next time). Given that it's impossible to discern any difference between the parties, I doubt that they would. The article described something less than complete re-nationalisation anyway, so there'd still be plenty trough available for their mates. -- Alex |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 09:11:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Potter
wrote: On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:44:19 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: Blair and Prescott promised lots of things last time around, and failed to deliver. Why would Labour act differently next time (assuming they ever get a next time). Given that it's impossible to discern any difference between the parties, I doubt that they would. The article described something less than complete re-nationalisation anyway, so there'd still be plenty trough available for their mates. Yes, the subject heading is rather misleading. The railway network is already subject to public control, in the sense that it is heavily regulated. Ther article seems to be referring to ownership. The suggestion that labour has 'backed' the plans is misleading also as it seems to be a consultation document rather than a policy that has been adopted. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 10:23:21 +0100, Scott
wrote: On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 09:11:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Potter wrote: On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:44:19 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: Blair and Prescott promised lots of things last time around, and failed to deliver. Why would Labour act differently next time (assuming they ever get a next time). Given that it's impossible to discern any difference between the parties, I doubt that they would. The article described something less than complete re-nationalisation anyway, so there'd still be plenty trough available for their mates. Yes, the subject heading is rather misleading. The railway network is already subject to public control, in the sense that it is heavily regulated. Ther article seems to be referring to ownership. The suggestion that labour has 'backed' the plans is misleading also as it seems to be a consultation document rather than a policy that has been adopted. It's a document that was funded by the main rail unions, so the Labour party has to show obedience to its paymasters in the short-term, but can duly ignore it when push comes to shove. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control- Guardian/Observer
On 01/07/2012 00:15, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 00:05:25 +0100, Bruce wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state-control Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control Sweeping reform would begin with renationalisation of key routes and end franchising of services Plans to bring the national rail network back under public ownership in order to halt big fare increases and prevent private companies siphoning off huge profits will be considered by Labour as part of its policy review, the Observer can reveal. I'll believe it when I see it. Maybe they've conveniently forgotten to mention how they will achieve it without tripping over EU rules which will come as an "unexpected surprise" when they try it ? Yes, it is just as believable as Harold Wilson & co. saying they will halt the Beeching closures. But as for the EU - sooner or later, we will get a UK government that will tell EU precisely what to do with their policies. A lot of people are getting fed up with EU meddling in what they consider to be matters for our own government. Bevan |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Jul 1, 10:11*am, Alex Potter wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:44:19 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: Blair and Prescott promised lots of things last time around, and failed to deliver. Why would Labour act differently next time (assuming they ever get a next time). Given that it's impossible to discern any difference between the parties, I doubt that they would. You hit that one on the head. The article described something less than *complete re-nationalisation anyway, so there'd still be plenty trough available for their mates. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control- Guardian/Observer
On 01/07/2012 00:05, Bruce wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state-control Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control The changes would amount to the biggest overhaul of the train system since British Rail was broken up in the mid-1990s and be seen as a deliberate pitch by Ed Miliband's party for millions of "commuter votes" in key marginal seats ahead of the next election. Will we be getting back the curling sandwiches and the Winter of Discontent? -- Graham Nye news(a)thenyes.org.uk |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 15:42:21 +0100, Bevan Price
wrote: On 01/07/2012 00:15, Charles Ellson wrote: On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 00:05:25 +0100, Bruce wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state-control Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control Sweeping reform would begin with renationalisation of key routes and end franchising of services Plans to bring the national rail network back under public ownership in order to halt big fare increases and prevent private companies siphoning off huge profits will be considered by Labour as part of its policy review, the Observer can reveal. I'll believe it when I see it. Maybe they've conveniently forgotten to mention how they will achieve it without tripping over EU rules which will come as an "unexpected surprise" when they try it ? Yes, it is just as believable as Harold Wilson & co. saying they will halt the Beeching closures. But as for the EU - sooner or later, we will get a UK government that will tell EU precisely what to do with their policies. A lot of people are getting fed up with EU meddling in what they consider to be matters for our own government. Swings and roundabouts. That "lot of people" conveniently forget about the amount of exports enabled by "EU meddling" and seem to be more concerned with turning the UK into a remote-controlled satellite of Uncle Sam than with re-establishing any kind of self-sufficiency. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 16:41:35 -0700 (PDT), Owain
wrote: On Jul 1, 11:09*pm, Graham Nye wrote: Will we be getting back the curling sandwiches and the Winter of Discontent? And 'blue days' and 'white days' or are they now banned under race relations? Have the usual suspects complained on behalf of the Smurfs ? |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control- Guardian/Observer
On 01/07/2012 09:27, e27002 wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:29 am, wrote: On 01/07/2012 00:15, Charles Ellson wrote: Network Rail is a State Monopoly in everything but name. The Railways are as Government Controlled as they have ever been. Why would the UK go back to the dark days of British Railways? Better IMO to allow operating companies to buy the infrastructure. Then drop franchising, allow history to take its course (given neccessary regulation and grants for desirable, but loss-making services). Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. -- Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control- Guardian/Observer
On 01/07/2012 17:13, e27002 wrote:
On Jul 1, 10:11 am, Alex wrote: On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:44:19 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: Blair and Prescott promised lots of things last time around, and failed to deliver. Why would Labour act differently next time (assuming they ever get a next time). Given that it's impossible to discern any difference between the parties, I doubt that they would. You hit that one on the head. The article described something less than complete re-nationalisation anyway, so there'd still be plenty trough available for their mates. While this may be true, you have to believe that people can change. The composition of the PLP has changed and will change even more if they win. -- Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Jul 1, 4:42*pm, Bevan Price wrote:
Yes, it is just as believable as Harold Wilson & co. saying they will halt the Beeching closures. But as for the EU - sooner or later, we will get a UK government that will tell EU precisely what to do with their policies. A lot of people are getting fed up with EU meddling in what they consider to be matters for our own government. My perception is that a lot of what people are getting fed up with is either organisations with "Europe" in their names that are nothing to do with the EU (eg European Court of Human Rights), or things that HMG chose to do, and claim to be a requirement of the EU, but when the EU directives in question are examined, are found to contain no such requirement (eg Railtrack). Personally I see as many examples of the EU preventing the UK government from doing stupid or wrong things at least as often as regulations coming out of the EU that are objectionable (and plenty of the objectionable regulations appear to have been created with the blessing of UK commissioners in Europe). Robin |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 15:42:21 +0100, Bevan Price wrote: On 01/07/2012 00:15, Charles Ellson wrote: On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 00:05:25 +0100, Bruce wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/labour-railway-network-state-control Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control Sweeping reform would begin with renationalisation of key routes and end franchising of services Plans to bring the national rail network back under public ownership in order to halt big fare increases and prevent private companies siphoning off huge profits will be considered by Labour as part of its policy review, the Observer can reveal. I'll believe it when I see it. Maybe they've conveniently forgotten to mention how they will achieve it without tripping over EU rules which will come as an "unexpected surprise" when they try it ? Yes, it is just as believable as Harold Wilson & co. saying they will halt the Beeching closures. But as for the EU - sooner or later, we will get a UK government that will tell EU precisely what to do with their policies. A lot of people are getting fed up with EU meddling in what they consider to be matters for our own government. Swings and roundabouts. That "lot of people" conveniently forget about the amount of exports enabled by "EU meddling" and seem to be more concerned with turning the UK into a remote-controlled satellite of Uncle Sam than with re-establishing any kind of self-sufficiency. On the contrary, most people now recognise that over 50% of British exports go to other EU countries and that only a tiny fraction of our exports go to the USA. The UK is also a major market for goods from other EU countries. What people here don't want is a United States of Europe. The ever-closer monetary, fiscal and political union that is being touted as the solution to the crisis in the Eurozone is exactly what most British people don't want. In 1973, the UK joined a Common Market with a view to increasing trade with other European countries at a time when our markets in the Commonwealth were diminishing. However, our politicians were less than honest with us because the treaty we signed also pointed the way to an eventual political union which is now getting ever closer because of the Euro crisis. The UK needs to take a step back from those countries that want political union, but at the same time both the UK and the rest of the EU need free trade. The answer seems obvious: the UK should rejoin the EFTA/EEA countries including Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland and remain in the Single Market while not being a member of the EU. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 12:01:27 +0100
Bruce wrote: What people here don't want is a United States of Europe. The ever-closer monetary, fiscal and political union that is being touted as the solution to the crisis in the Eurozone is exactly what most British people don't want. Political union won't happen. There are certain countries that will never accept being de facto controlled by germany. If you think the east european countries that have just escaped from the yoke of the USSR will be happy to be run from Berlin, sorry , I mean Brussels, then you're dreaming. If riots like that can happen in a laid back country like greece imagine what can happen in warsaw or prague with their history of uprising. The federal USA worked because it was essentially all the same culture and nationality from east to west. Europe isn't. If the eurocrats want massive civil unrest across the continent then sure, go for political union. B2003 |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Jul 2, 12:24*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 12:01:27 +0100 Bruce wrote: What people here don't want is a United States of Europe. *The ever-closer monetary, fiscal and political union that is being touted as the solution to the crisis in the Eurozone is exactly what most British people don't want. Political union won't happen. There are certain countries that will never accept being de facto controlled by germany. If you think the east european countries that have just escaped from the yoke of the USSR will be happy to be run from Berlin, sorry , I mean Brussels, then you're dreaming. If riots like that can happen in a laid back country like greece imagine what can happen in warsaw or prague with their history of uprising. The federal USA worked because it was essentially all the same culture and nationality from east to west. Europe isn't. If the eurocrats want massive civil unrest across the continent then sure, go for political union. Given the robust state of the Australian economy in recent years, the UK would have been better off staying with what she had. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
Cannot the operating company and the infrastructure nonetheless be state-owned? Indeed but IMU the work performed on it has to be publicly advertised to the rest of the EU and then awarded to the most suitable (not necessarily the cheapest) candidate not just to e.g. Mr Millipede's chosen recipient. Renationalising the infrastructure is probably the easy part but not the trains using it. Yep, it’s in the Lisbon treaty, once the competition genie has been let out of the bottle, whether it be competitive tendering for NHS, education or railways it can’t go back in. Under EU rules, the only way the UK government can regain control is by bidding in the competitive market so created, just like anyone else and, that’s not the end of it either, they would have to re-bid periodically as well. Now remind us again who it was that signed us up to the Lisbon treaty (whether we like it or not) oh that was Miliband’s ‘can’t win a vote outside of Kirkcaldy’ best mate Gordon. Ed Miliband is setting himself up for a great big fall the way he keeps trying to walk away from the last Labour government, pretending it had all never happened. He’s been at it today again, over the Libor banking scandal, which news reports over the weekend have now implicated the BoE and that’s perilously close to government err… the one he was in the Treasury with at the time. A proper democratic party would have cleansed itself of their disastrous previous thirteen years in office but then Labour isn’t a proper democratic party. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
allantracy wrote:
Ed Miliband is setting himself up for a great big fall the way he keeps trying to walk away from the last Labour government, pretending it had all never happened. .... just like David Cameron who pretends he had nothing to do with the last Tory government, in spite of his role as Special Adviser to the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Norman Lamont. Pictures from Black Wednesday (16.9.92) when the pound was forced out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism show Lamont and Cameron strutting together. So on the basis of your argument, David Cameron must also be setting himself (and the country) up for a great big fall. ;-) |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control -Guardian/Observer
On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 15:38:45 +0100, Bruce wrote:
So on the basis of your argument, David Cameron must also be setting himself (and the country) up for a great big fall. ;-) Isn't he? -- Alex |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Err... wasn't it Friedmanite insanity that built our railway network, in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
Yes, it is just as believable as Harold Wilson & co. saying they will halt the Beeching closures. But as for the EU - sooner or later, we will get a UK government that will tell EU precisely what to do with their policies. A lot of people are getting fed up with EU meddling in what they consider to be matters for our own government. Possibly, as early as the next election if news reports today are to be believed. However, even if we came out, it’s still highly likely that we would remain members of the single market, a basic condition of membership being that we could not engage in the protectionism of closing off any of our markets, such as railway franchises, to other members of the single market. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
So on the basis of your argument, David Cameron must also be setting
himself (and the country) up for a great big fall. * ;-) Isn't he? Possibly, though quite how you fall out of a hole, you're clearly already in, remains to be seen. I’ve always believed that, provided David can keep his hands off the nukes, he won’t have to deliver a great deal to be considered a considerable improvement on what had come before. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control Labour has, by now, a long record of opposing Tory reforms, in opposition, around the public sector and then failing to do a single thing about them when, or if, returned to office. Thanks to their union ties, the Labour party is the real conservative party nowadays in this country, having failed to produce any real radical changes of any consequence for years. Apart from completely f**king up the nation’s finances the only thing I can think of the last lot did that you can now, with hindsight, never see being undone was civil partnerships. I would have added to that list the commendable decision to create an independent BoE but as that particular piece of dysfunctional wazzock brain implementation continues to unravel by the day, to the point of needing a complete rebuild, the credit counter rather diminishes. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control- Guardian/Observer
On 02/07/2012 16:19, allantracy wrote:
Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Err... wasn't it Friedmanite insanity that built our railway network, in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? There is something to what you say. The railways were saved first by compulsory amalgamation in 1925, then by nationalization in 1947, by which time three of the four companies were going out of business. Even Margaret Thatcher stopped short of privatization, being a somewhat cannier Friedmanite than her epigones (I'll give her that much). -- Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Jul 3, 8:41*am, Martin Edwards wrote:
On 02/07/2012 16:19, allantracy wrote: Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Err... wasn't it Friedmanite insanity that built our railway network, in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? There is something to what you say. *The railways were saved first by compulsory amalgamation in 1925, then by nationalization in 1947, by which time three of the four companies were going out of business. *Even Margaret Thatcher stopped short of privatization, being a somewhat cannier Friedmanite than her epigones (I'll give her that much). A major part of the financial problems the railways faced in the 1930s and later was that they were subject to government regulation of passenger fares and freight tarrifs, and subject to common carrier obligations, that were created when the railways were effectively regional monopolies, but that were no longer appropriate when motorised road traffic provided effective competition. Railways could not turn away freight that was expensive to transport (common carrier) and could not price it off (freight rates were controlled by government), nor could they increase rates on what should have been profitable traffic. That's before the lack of payment for wartime traffic loads are considered. Robin |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Jul 2, 4:19*pm, allantracy wrote:
Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Err... wasn't it Friedmanite insanity that built our railway network, in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? Coming from a hard-line marxist the poster's remark is particularly appropriate. Everywhere his philosophy has taken power, death and misery have followed (Russia, the PRC, Cambodia, North Korea, etc., etc.). Perhaps the greatest example of the difference between socialism and freedom is the Korean Peninsula. North of the DMZ is a giant concentration camp. There the people are forced to fawn over their incompetent "leader". Their years pass in hunger and missery. To the south of the DMZ there flourishes a modern nation. The people there enjoy freedom and increasing prosperity. Periodically they elect their leaders. Their goods are a byword for quality around the world. Friedman vs. marx, wow that is a hard choice. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Jul 2, 4:29*pm, allantracy wrote:
Yes, it is just as believable as Harold Wilson & co. saying they will halt the Beeching closures. But as for the EU - sooner or later, we will get a UK government that will tell EU precisely what to do with their policies. A lot of people are getting fed up with EU meddling in what they consider to be matters for our own government. Possibly, as early as the next election if news reports today are to be believed. However, even if we came out, it’s still highly likely that we would remain members of the single market, a basic condition of membership being that we could not engage in the protectionism of closing off any of our markets, such as railway franchises, to other members of the single market. That day cannot come soon enough. Although whether our former trading partners in the Commonwealth will want to renew trade with the UK remains to be seen. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Jul 2, 4:55*pm, allantracy wrote:
So on the basis of your argument, David Cameron must also be setting himself (and the country) up for a great big fall. * ;-) Isn't he? Possibly, though quite how you fall out of a hole, you're clearly already in, remains to be seen. I’ve always believed that, provided David can keep his hands off the nukes, he won’t have to deliver a great deal to be considered a considerable improvement on what had come before. It would not be hard to improve on "tax and spend" Brown. However, that is still a long way from good, small, government. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Jul 2, 7:32*pm, allantracy wrote:
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control Labour has, by now, a long record of opposing Tory reforms, in opposition, around the public sector and then failing to do a single thing about them when, or if, returned to office. They just play the political game. Thanks to their union ties, the Labour party is the real conservative party nowadays in this country, having failed to produce any real radical changes of any consequence for years. Your joking. The UK has forgotten what Conservatism is. Apart from completely f**king up the nation’s finances the only thing I can think of the last lot did that you can now, with hindsight, never see being undone was civil partnerships. There is nothing conservative about encouraging sodomy. I would have added to that list the commendable decision to create an independent BoE but as that particular piece of dysfunctional wazzock brain implementation continues to unravel by the day, to the point of needing a complete rebuild, the credit counter rather diminishes. That move in and of itself was good. It is pity the UK does not have people of the calibre needed to run an independent currency controlling bank. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Tue, 3 Jul 2012 04:13:38 -0700 (PDT)
77002 wrote: in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? Coming from a hard-line marxist the poster's remark is particularly appropriate. Everywhere his philosophy has taken power, death and misery have followed (Russia, the PRC, Cambodia, North Korea, etc., etc.). Ah , but the traditional lefty get-out clause there would be that the problems in those countries are down to corrupt government. Conveniently forgetting that human nature is a core part of any society and its government. This was something that marx conveniently forgot about in his treatise that assumed people were robotic simpletons all marching to the same tune and all putting the common good above themselves and their familes. Yeah , right. Friedman vs. marx, wow that is a hard choice. Marx is a simple solution to a complex problem and hence doesn't require you to think - that makes it the easy option for braindead left wingers. B2003 |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
In uk.railway allantracy twisted the electrons to say:
Apart from completely f**king up the nation???s finances the only thing I can think of the last lot did that you can now, with hindsight, never see being undone was civil partnerships. Devolution (including the London Assembly & Mayor) was one of their better ideas too, though as usual for any UK political party their implementation was decidedly imperfect ... I would have added to that list the commendable decision to create an independent BoE but as that particular piece of dysfunctional wazzock brain implementation continues to unravel by the day, to the point of needing a complete rebuild, the credit counter rather diminishes. The problem with the "independent" BofE was that whilst it was free to set whatever interest rate it liked to hit the inflation target, it was the Chancellor who in charge of said target. So all it really did was result in the public not blaming the Chancellor when they didn't get the interest rate they liked ... -- These opinions might not even be mine ... Let alone connected with my employer ... |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
In uk.railway 77002 twisted the electrons to say:
There is nothing conservative about encouraging sodomy. Quick! Let's make the government small enough that it can fit inside everyone's bedrooms? -- These opinions might not even be mine ... Let alone connected with my employer ... |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Tue, 3 Jul 2012 04:13:38 -0700 (PDT), 77002
wrote: On Jul 2, 4:19*pm, allantracy wrote: Friedmanite dogma is a good example of Einstein's statement that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Err... wasn't it Friedmanite insanity that built our railway network, in the first place, and wasn't it Stalinist insanity, as applied to the burgeoning road network, that did so much to undermine the finances of some otherwise very sound private railway operations? Coming from a hard-line marxist the poster's remark is particularly appropriate. Everywhere his philosophy has taken power, death and misery have followed (Russia, the PRC, Cambodia, North Korea, etc., etc.). Perhaps the greatest example of the difference between socialism and freedom is the Korean Peninsula. North of the DMZ is a giant concentration camp. There the people are forced to fawn over their incompetent "leader". Their years pass in hunger and missery. To the south of the DMZ there flourishes a modern nation. Which also got there by methods involving lorry loads of their citizens disappearing overnight and never being seen again as can be found in the more comprehensive commercial photo libraries, e.g. "Suspected South Korean traitors are herded into lorries on their way to execution" in http://avaxnews.com/educative/Korean_War_1.html Neither of the local sides were angels. The people there enjoy freedom and increasing prosperity. Periodically they elect their leaders. Their goods are a byword for quality around the world. Friedman vs. marx, wow that is a hard choice. |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/Observer
On Tue, 3 Jul 2012 17:02:40 +0000 (UTC), Alistair Gunn
wrote: In uk.railway allantracy twisted the electrons to say: Apart from completely f**king up the nation???s finances the only thing I can think of the last lot did that you can now, with hindsight, never see being undone was civil partnerships. Devolution (including the London Assembly & Mayor) That isn't devolution, that is a jumped-up county council. was one of their better ideas too, though as usual for any UK political party their implementation was decidedly imperfect ... I would have added to that list the commendable decision to create an independent BoE but as that particular piece of dysfunctional wazzock brain implementation continues to unravel by the day, to the point of needing a complete rebuild, the credit counter rather diminishes. The problem with the "independent" BofE was that whilst it was free to set whatever interest rate it liked to hit the inflation target, it was the Chancellor who in charge of said target. So all it really did was result in the public not blaming the Chancellor when they didn't get the interest rate they liked ... |
Labour backs plans to return railway network to public control - Guardian/
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