When the London Overground extension to Clapham Junction opens -
currently estimated for December 2012 - what service frequency will be
provided? TfL's website declares that there will be four trains per hour
between Highbury And Islington and Clapham Junction, and goes on to
suggest that passengers should change at Surrey Quays for trains to
Crystal Palace or West Croydon. There is no mention of New Cross.
Does this indicate that trains will no longer run to New Cross?

The extension project is, typically for TfL, running late. Services were
originally due to start this summer. The website asserts that the
line is now operational and driver training is underway. Does it
really take several months to teach drivers how to drive a modern
train and to familiarise drivers with a short rail route?

There is also mention of a new station at Surrey Canal Road.
I'm not sure there is any need for a station there. I hope it will
not be like Haggerston and Hoxton, catering for noticeably fewer
passengers than other stations. The website admits that funding has
been granted and says that work will start in 2013 but will not be
completed until 2015! It takes 18 months or more to build one small
station?

On 2012-08-20 20:57:27 +0000, Robin9 said:

The extension project is, typically for TfL, running late. Services were
originally due to start this summer.

I don't think it was ever scheduled for earlier opening. The rest of
the ELL was ready ahead of or on schedule.

I hope it will not be like Haggerston and Hoxton, catering for
noticeably fewer
passengers than other stations.

There will always be less used stations. I'm sure traffic at these two
has been rising steadily.

E.

Paul Corfield wrote:

When the ELL opens the current SLL
service into London Bridge will cease.

How many stations and passengers will lose a direct link? And is there a
simple interchange that will allow them to make those connections?

--
My blog: http://adf.ly/4hi4c

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 23:28:44 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
No, trains will still run to New Cross at 4 tph. All the other ELL
routes retain 4 tph so the new line takes the core frequency to 16
tph.

Pity they don't speed the trains up somewhat. Last time I got the ELL from
highbury it consisted off:

Wait at highbury for 5 mins.
Trundle at 20mph to Dalston junction.
Wait at Dalston junction for 2 mins.
Trundle at 20mph all the way to canada water.

Is there some rule saying that any decent speed is no longer allowed
on the tube/overground system? The only lines that have a decent turn
of speed these days is the victoria and central , everything else seems
to be semi comatose. Even the piccadilly line which used to fly along
from hammersmith to acton now potters along that section like some old
19th century country branch line in no particular hurry.

B2003

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 23:28:44 +0100

Pity they don't speed the trains up somewhat. Last time I got the ELL from
highbury it consisted off:

Wait at highbury for 5 mins.

Is that not typical at a terminus? Do you mean they were late against the
timetable, or that they didn't just set off as soon as you turned up?

Wait at Dalston junction for 2 mins.

There have to be various planned waits in the timetable, because of the
extra trains starting at Dalston Jn. If not people would no doubt complain
that the 8 tph north of Dalston Jn had unbalanced 10 min and 5 min gaps.

But once the 16 tph service south of Dalston Jn starts, there'll be no need
to regulate the Highbury extensions this way, as they'll be alternating
trains using half the regular slots, so they can be a standard 7.5 mins
apart.

Paul S

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:00:21 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
Wait at highbury for 5 mins.

Well that's the turn round time.

Indeed. But if systems in this country were run continental style it would
be one in - one out. As soon as a train terminates another heads off. But
for some reason we can't seem to manage that here except on the DLR. The
fact that that is computer controlled rather than relying on drivers probably
says it all.

That's to balance out the headway south of Dalston relative to the
headway between Highbury and Dalston. This may change when the service
goes up to 16 tph (on the core) in December.

But its all the same line. Why does it need to be balanced when its only
gone a mile down the line? Its like the nonsense at arnos grove on the
piccadilly line.

The Overground seems to have quite relaxed schedules so as to give
recovery time and ensure high performance levels.

I wouldn't call 20mph high performance. Its not just the frequency of trains
that matters, its how fast you get to your destination once you're on one.

B2003

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:06:24 +0100
"Paul Scott" wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 23:28:44 +0100

Pity they don't speed the trains up somewhat. Last time I got the ELL from
highbury it consisted off:

Wait at highbury for 5 mins.

Is that not typical at a terminus? Do you mean they were late against the
timetable, or that they didn't just set off as soon as you turned up?

I was just factoring in all the waiting times I had. For all I know it could
have been sitting there 15 mins. If highbury was out in the sticks like epping
then fine, but its pretty busy hub close to central london and the service
frequency should be at least the equivalent of the tube in that area.

But once the 16 tph service south of Dalston Jn starts, there'll be no need
to regulate the Highbury extensions this way, as they'll be alternating
trains using half the regular slots, so they can be a standard 7.5 mins
apart.

The fact that the trains will only be 7.5 mins apart doesn't exactly shout high
frequency at me. High frequency for a metro is a train every 1 or 2 minutes.
TfL seem to want to pretend that the overground is a metro system yet run
it like a slightly uprated suburban line which isn't quite what was
promised when the ELL was taken away from LU.

B2003

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:58:08 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
Indeed. But if systems in this country were run continental style it would
be one in - one out. As soon as a train terminates another heads off. But
for some reason we can't seem to manage that here except on the DLR. The
fact that that is computer controlled rather than relying on drivers probably
says it all.

I can't think of that many lines which run like that. The only real
"in and out" service I have seen was the VAL automated metro in Lille.

Rennes is similar. But I was thinking of the Kiev Metro. A the terminus the
train arrives, reverses in the headshunt then pulls in to the outbound
platform and leaves. It doesn't wait at all and its all manually driven.
I couldn't imagine that happening in the UK - it would require decent
timekeeping and workers prepared to put in an effort and not run crying to
bob crowe every 5 mins.

impressive I found the tiny trains to be too small and I really

Yes, they are only suited to small towns really. But at least they have
them. Over here we'd still be arguing about the cost of installing a miserable
little tram line in a city the size of lille, never mind a bored tunnel metro.

wondered how they'd deal with an on train fire in the tunnel sections.

One would hope the trains are made of fireproof materials!

Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant high levels of punctuality / timekeeping
performance. Not high performance as in travelling at Ferrari like
speeds ;-)

If there was a decent service on the ELL I suspect many more people would
use it as a way to cut out zone 1 on a trip to/from canary wharf via canada
water. Which is what I used it for. In the event it would have been quicker
just to stay on the jubbly line to green park and get the victoria line.

B2003

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 12:51:54 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
I wasn't convinced - they seemed very plasticky inside and the
stations were very small with narrow stairs and platforms. The
connecting doors between cars were also locked shut so no escape if
there was a fire in one car. Of course I only had a short visit so
there may well be safety features that I missed.

Hopefully there's a manual door release handle hidden somewhere. Either that
or French elf n softies is somewhat more lax than here.

It doesn't avoid Zone 1 as the DfT forced TfL to put Shoreditch High
St station inside Zone 1 to avoid abstraction of city bound commuters
from Southern and South Eastern. I don't have a Z1 ticket so I avoid

Never realised that. What a penny pinchingly vindictive thing to do.

Still it is not devoid of patronage with huge numbers connecting via
Canada Water from the south. I still think the line is well worth
having as with the rest of the Overground network. I dread to think

Certainly its better than nothing, but if the northern part intersected
with more tube lines it would be even more useful. As it is it merrily
bypasses the piccadilly, both branches of the northern and the central line
at acton. Obviously this isn't TfLs fault as its the way it was built, but
it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to sort something out. Mind you , it might
be beyond the wit of TfL - the organisation that built a new station at
white city/wood lane for the H&C but didn't provide in gate access to white
city on the central line when it would only have required a new walkway.

B2003

wrote in message
...

The fact that the trains will only be 7.5 mins apart doesn't exactly shout
high
frequency at me. High frequency for a metro is a train every 1 or 2
minutes.
TfL seem to want to pretend that the overground is a metro system yet run
it like a slightly uprated suburban line which isn't quite what was
promised when the ELL was taken away from LU.

I don't believe TfL ever promised anything of the sort, and most definitely
not what you describe. 8 tph max end to end in the peaks (on the NLL) is
actually an improvement over the original proposed timetable - which would
only have had 6 tph west of Camden Rd, with 2 tph from Stratford terminating
there.

Likewise the ELL service has never been described as anything higher than
'up to' 18 tph in the peak on the core section, and 8 tph between Highbury
and Dalston Jn.

Paul S