Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

Evening all

I;ve just reviewed a Youtube video, which shows a peculiarity at Noorgate
northern, southbound platform.

At the southern end of the platform, the line cuts to the right, to
entern tunnel on the right habd side of the cut, instead of the (natural)
left hand side on a right/hand platform.

Anyone else noticed this? IS it a hangover from the 1923 widening works,
or is there somethign on the opposite side of the tunnel - such as a
Str*t*g*c R*s*rv* ?

Anyone with layout plans pre and post?

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
IF you think this http://bit.ly/u5EP3p is cruel
please sign this http://bit.ly/sKkzEx

---- If it's below this line, I didn't write it ----

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

On 16/09/2012 22:12, Paul Cummins wrote:
Evening all

I;ve just reviewed a Youtube video, which shows a peculiarity at Noorgate
northern, southbound platform.

At the southern end of the platform, the line cuts to the right, to
entern tunnel on the right habd side of the cut, instead of the (natural)
left hand side on a right/hand platform.

Anyone else noticed this? IS it a hangover from the 1923 widening works,
or is there somethign on the opposite side of the tunnel - such as a
Str*t*g*c R*s*rv* ?

Anyone with layout plans pre and post?


It's only the now-disused crossover that the southbound tunnel heads
toward. The platform extension works do indeed explain why the track
cuts across the platform area.

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

We were about to embark at Dover, when nowhere@com (Subterraneo) came up
to me and whispered:

he platform extension works do indeed explain why the track
cuts across the platform area.

Thought it would be something like that. I'll pop up there myself
sometime soon and have a look.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
IF you think this http://bit.ly/u5EP3p is cruel
please sign this http://bit.ly/sKkzEx

---- If it's below this line, I didn't write it ----

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

There is a larger puzzle.
As one travels south on the Bank branch Northern Line the track changes sides a few times.
They change sides at Moorgate/Bank & at Kennington.

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

We were about to embark at Dover, when (Offramp)
came up to me and whispered:

As one travels south on the Bank branch Northern Line the track
changes sides a few times. They change sides at Moorgate/Bank & at
Kennington.

Not much of a puzzle...

The original CSLR between King William Street and Kennington was always
Right Hand Running - no idea why.

When the Bank Extensionw as opened, the tunnels were flattened out before
London Bridge, but for Right Hand running.

This was normalised at Moorgate after the Euston extension, and at
kennington after the stockwell extension. But as against switch the sides
at the middle (RHR) section, that was left as is.


This is all IIRC, of course - it's been over 112 years since I was last
at the King Willinam Street terminus.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
IF you think this http://bit.ly/u5EP3p is cruel
please sign this http://bit.ly/sKkzEx

---- If it's below this line, I didn't write it ----

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

Paul Cummins wrote:


This is all IIRC, of course - it's been over 112 years since I was last
at the King Willinam Street terminus.

You have an impressively long memory!

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

We were about to embark at Dover, when
(Recliner) came up to me and whispered:

This is all IIRC, of course - it's been over 112 years since
I was last at the King Willinam Street terminus.

You have an impressively long memory!

Sorry,, got an extra 1 at the start of that number.

In all seriousness, I did all the background for, and started writing, a
book on the Underground about 20 years ago. Then the Internet happened.


--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
IF you think this http://bit.ly/u5EP3p is cruel
please sign this http://bit.ly/sKkzEx

---- If it's below this line, I didn't write it ----

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

Paul Cummins wrote:
We were about to embark at Dover, when
(Recliner) came up to me and whispered:

This is all IIRC, of course - it's been over 112 years since
I was last at the King Willinam Street terminus.

You have an impressively long memory!

Sorry,, got an extra 1 at the start of that number.

In all seriousness, I did all the background for, and started writing, a
book on the Underground about 20 years ago. Then the Internet happened.

I managed a trip down to the old station and the under-river tunnels some
years ago (12, 30). I don't think it's possible to do that any more.

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

In article ,
lid (Paul Cummins) wrote:

We were about to embark at Dover, when (Offramp)
came up to me and whispered:

As one travels south on the Bank branch Northern Line the track
changes sides a few times. They change sides at Moorgate/Bank & at
Kennington.

Not much of a puzzle...

The original CSLR between King William Street and Kennington was always
Right Hand Running - no idea why.

When the Bank Extensionw as opened, the tunnels were flattened out before
London Bridge, but for Right Hand running.

This was normalised at Moorgate after the Euston extension, and at
kennington after the stockwell extension. But as against switch the sides
at the middle (RHR) section, that was left as is.

This is all IIRC, of course - it's been over 112 years since I was last
at the King Willinam Street terminus.

Except that Stockwell was the original Southern terminus of the C&SLR.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

On Sep 18, 2:49*pm, (Paul Cummins)
wrote:

The original CSLR between King William Street and Kennington was always
Right Hand Running - no idea why.

When the Bank Extension was opened, the tunnels were flattened out before
London Bridge, but for Right Hand running.

This was normalised at Moorgate after the Euston extension, and at
kennington after the stockwell extension. But as against switch the sides
at the middle (RHR) section, that was left as is.

I think that in order to understand this I need to know what
"flattened out" means.
I am afraid I don't know what it means. It cannot mean "oblated" as we
know it; it must have a technical sense - and that technical sense is
lost on me so your explanation is without meaning.

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

In message
, at
07:48:38 on Tue, 25 Sep 2012, Offramp remarked:
The original CSLR between King William Street and Kennington was always
Right Hand Running - no idea why.

When the Bank Extension was opened, the tunnels were flattened out before
London Bridge, but for Right Hand running.

This was normalised at Moorgate after the Euston extension, and at
kennington after the stockwell extension. But as against switch the sides
at the middle (RHR) section, that was left as is.

I think that in order to understand this I need to know what
"flattened out" means.

Put side by side, rather than on top and bottom.

At London Bridge I've been in the old CSLR tunnel and it was vertically
above the current southbound platform.
--
Roland Perry

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

We were about to embark at Dover, when ()
came up to me and whispered:

Except that Stockwell was the original Southern terminus of the
C&SLR.

Quite right - my bad. Kennington was the termins of the CCEH.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
IF you think this http://bit.ly/u5EP3p is cruel
please sign this http://bit.ly/sKkzEx

---- If it's below this line, I didn't write it ----

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

In message , Paul
Cummins wrote:
The original CSLR between King William Street and Kennington was always
Right Hand Running - no idea why.

I've read that it meant that trains arriving at KWS had the less steep
tunnel (because of the curves approaching the station). I have no idea
if that's accurate or not.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

In message , Paul
Cummins wrote:
Except that Stockwell was the original Southern terminus of the
C&SLR.
Quite right - my bad. Kennington was the termins of the CCEH.

Never.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

We were about to embark at Dover, when (Clive D. W.
Feather) came up to me and whispered:

Kennington was the termins of the CCEH.

Never.

It was, you know... hence the loop.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
IF you think this http://bit.ly/u5EP3p is cruel
please sign this http://bit.ly/sKkzEx

---- If it's below this line, I didn't write it ----

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

In article ,
Paul Cummins wrote:
We were about to embark at Dover, when (Clive D. W.
Feather) came up to me and whispered:

Kennington was the termins of the CCEH.

Never.

It was, you know... hence the loop.

There was an earlier loop at Charing Cross. You know .. the terminus
of the CCE&H.

By the time the Bill for Kennington was requested it was the LER.

Nick
--
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

We were about to embark at Dover, when (Nick Leverton)
came up to me and whispered:

There was an earlier loop at Charing Cross. You know .. the
terminus
of the CCE&H.

By the time the Bill for Kennington was requested it was the
LER.

Again I sit corrected though the reason is still correct.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
IF you think this http://bit.ly/u5EP3p is cruel
please sign this http://bit.ly/sKkzEx

---- If it's below this line, I didn't write it ----

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

In message , at 21:49:22 on Fri, 28
Sep 2012, Clive D. W. Feather remarked:
The original CSLR between King William Street and Kennington was always
Right Hand Running - no idea why.

I've read that it meant that trains arriving at KWS had the less steep
tunnel (because of the curves approaching the station). I have no idea
if that's accurate or not.

The problem at the KWS end seems to have been Swan Lane, which is just
north of the river. The tunnels were arranged vertically there (with the
northbound tunnel above), but then spread out horizontally under the
curve of Arthur St West so that both lines entered the station (one
platform) at the same level.

Under King William Street it was left-hand running, and with the
northbound line of the outside of the curve that would give it a
slightly greater distance to climb to the station. The fall on the
southbound line must have been considerable.

The tunnels then returned to side-by-side for most of the underwater
section (and beyond) this time right-hand running. At that time there
wasn't a station at London Bridge, the first one being Borough.

For whatever reason, the lines then crossed over, beneath the junction
with Borough Road, with the southbound line going under, and retained
the left-hand running all the way to Stockwell.
--
Roland Perry

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

In message , at 07:36:48 on Sat, 29 Sep
2012, Roland Perry remarked:
The problem at the KWS end seems to have been Swan Lane, which is just
north of the river. The tunnels were arranged vertically there (with
the northbound tunnel above), but then spread out horizontally under
the curve of Arthur St West so that both lines entered the station (one
platform) at the same level.

Under King William Street it was left-hand running

Sorry, I meant Arthur St West, for a second time.
--
Roland Perry

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

In message , Nick Leverton
writes
There was an earlier loop at Charing Cross. You know .. the terminus
of the CCE&H.
To improve the interchange facilities at Charing Cross, the L.E.R.
Promoted a short extension of the Hampstead Tube under Villiers Street
to the Embankment, and work on this was begun in October 1911. The new
line took the form of a single loop under Embankment Gardens and the
fringe of the river from Cleopatra's Needle to Charing Cross Pier,
returning through a single platform built underneath the District
Railway Charing Cross station about 50 yards to the east of the Bakerloo
Embankment station. The District Railway station was rebuilt in
connection with this work to serve as an adequate exchange station for
the three railways. With the rebuilding, a circulating area was made
under the District Railway line with platforms that were connected with
the two tube stations by pairs of escalators. The Hampstead pair were
brought into use on 6 April 1914, simultaneously with the opening of the
loop line. The name Charing Cross (Embankment) was adopted on that
date for all three lines (District, Bakerloo and Hampstead) at the
interchange point and the old Hampstead station was renamed Charing
Cross (Strand). Just over a year later, on 9th May 1915, the
Embankment stations dropped the word Embankment and became Charing Cross
simply, whilst the Hampstead line station dropped the Charing Cross and
was called Strand only.

Quoted from "Sixty Years of the Northern" pages 21 and 22.
--
Clive

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

In article ,
Clive wrote:
In message , Nick Leverton
writes
There was an earlier loop at Charing Cross. You know .. the terminus
of the CCE&H.
To improve the interchange facilities at Charing Cross, the L.E.R.
Promoted a short extension of the Hampstead Tube under Villiers Street
to the Embankment, and work on this was begun in October 1911. The new
line took the form of a single loop under Embankment Gardens and the
fringe of the river from Cleopatra's Needle to Charing Cross Pier,
returning through a single platform built underneath the District
Railway Charing Cross station about 50 yards to the east of the Bakerloo
Embankment station. The District Railway station was rebuilt in
connection with this work to serve as an adequate exchange station for
the three railways.
....

Quoted from "Sixty Years of the Northern" pages 21 and 22.

Thanks Clive, most interesting. Was Charing Cross (later Strand) just
a two platform terminus prior to then ? I probably have it in a book
somewhere but not got that one :)

Nick
--
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996

Strange track layout at Moorgate Northern?
 

In message , Nick Leverton
writes
Thanks Clive, most interesting. Was Charing Cross (later Strand) just
a two platform terminus prior to then ? I probably have it in a book
somewhere but not got that one :)
I have just read the book through and it makes references to where the
two lines were vertically arranged, so it's my assumption that this was
not so. Further, references are made to right had running at certain
points so I gather it didn't happen here. The Charing Cross station
roof collapsed on 5/12/1905, meaning that there was no need for taxis
for a few months so permission was granted and the surface was opened
for a period of 6 weeks to enable to construct the booking and one
complete lift shaft. The booking hall floor was 12 feet under the cab
stand and the bottom of the shaft was 73ft, which I am guessing (don't
know) was the depth from the booking hall floor. The winding gear
being at the bottom of the shaft as there was no overhead clearance.
The book simply says that the bottom of the shaft was driven to the
tunnels so I can only assume that the station Called Charing Cross,
later Strand was formed below the forecourt and mainline station as a
level pair, but again this is simple deduction from what the book
doesn't say. I'm sorry that I can't tell you any more.
--
Clive