On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 05:01:12 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Why doesn't TfL adopt the Barcelona system - a fixed fare for a single
journey of any length?

Probably because of the (IMV mistaken) idea that public transport should
be a profitable enterprise, rather than a public service.

--
Alex

ian batten wrote:

On Sep 20, 5:10 am, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Why doesn't TfL adopt the Barcelona system - a fixed fare for a single
journey of any length?

That's Barcelona, 39 square miles, compared to London, 607 square
miles, yes?

That only works ff you have one authority and one operater that
cross-subsidises all services.

We bought visitor Oyster Cards years ago aboard the Eurostar. We could
start using our cards the moment we left Waterloo International. It's
not very well know that visitors can buy cards before arriving in
London.

We have used our cards on tube, bus, train and DLR and are quite
impressed with the system. We particularly like the daily cap when
visiting London. You never have to worry about how much travelling
you're going to do in a day. You will never pay more than a travelcard
would have cost you. This makes travel plans in London very flexible for
tourists.

One thing you have to think about is topping up the card, but that's
very easy in London with so many outlets. The other thing is that you
have to remember that you don't touch out on bus journeys. That's
confusing when you're used to the Dutch OV-chipkaart. :-)

The other thing we like about the Oyster Cards is the fact that they're
anonymous and without expiration date. When we have friends or family
going on a trip to London we simply lend them our cards. All they have
to do is top the card for their personal use.

When I compare the Oyster Card to the Dutch OV-chipkaart it is extremely
well suited to visitors. The Dutch card only gives discount on peronal
cards. Topping up can be a nightmare for visitors. When you use the card
on trains in NL you need to have a minimum of EUR 20 on your card before
you can start a journey.

Even if there are some quirks in using the Oyster Card, it compares very
well to systems in other countries. Well done to London for introducing
this system.
It also compares very well to travelling in other parts of the UK. We
occasionally use the bus in Bournemouth. There are two operators there
and tickets between Yellow Buses and Wilts and Dorset are not
interchangeble. Even in a city where there is a decent network, the
non-interchangebilty of tickets is extremely annoying and expensive. Not
everyone has an OAP bus pass. :-)

In message , at 08:21:26 on Thu, 20 Sep
2012, Alex Potter remarked:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 05:01:12 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Why doesn't TfL adopt the Barcelona system - a fixed fare for a single
journey of any length?

Probably because of the (IMV mistaken) idea that public transport should
be a profitable enterprise, rather than a public service.

It's often more of a case of how big the subsidy is. Not unusual for
some overseas Public Transport operations to run on the basis of one
third fare box, two thirds subsidy.

TFL costs about twice the farebox revenue to run, iirc (£5.5bn operating
costs plus £2bn capital projects) versus £3.5bn. So not exactly
"profitable".
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 23:25:40 -0700 (PDT)
ian batten wrote:
On Sep 20, 5:10=A0am, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Why doesn't TfL adopt the Barcelona system - a fixed fare for a single
journey of any length?

That's Barcelona, 39 square miles, compared to London, 607 square
miles, yes?

Try Moscow then - considerably bigger than london. Flat fare.

B2003

On 20/09/2012 10:25, d wrote:
On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 23:25:40 -0700 (PDT)
ian wrote:
On Sep 20, 5:10=A0am, Mike wrote:

Why doesn't TfL adopt the Barcelona system - a fixed fare for a single
journey of any length?

That's Barcelona, 39 square miles, compared to London, 607 square
miles, yes?

Try Moscow then - considerably bigger than london. Flat fare.


Bigger subsidy and smaller network.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 10:34:21 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote:
Try Moscow then - considerably bigger than london. Flat fare.


Bigger subsidy and smaller network.

Not that much smaller and it carries more passengers. Ironic how russia with
its bankrupt economy can subsidise when the UK, supposedly one of the top
10 richest countries in the world, can't.

B2003

On 20/09/2012 10:44, d wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 10:34:21 +0100
Graeme wrote:
Try Moscow then - considerably bigger than london. Flat fare.


Bigger subsidy and smaller network.

Not that much smaller

Around 200 route miles as against 250 in London.

and it carries more passengers. Ironic how russia with
its bankrupt economy can subsidise when the UK, supposedly one of the top
10 richest countries in the world, can't.


UK does.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 10:46:24 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 20/09/2012 10:44, d wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 10:34:21 +0100
Graeme wrote:
Try Moscow then - considerably bigger than london. Flat fare.


Bigger subsidy and smaller network.

Not that much smaller

Around 200 route miles as against 250 in London.

Like I said, not that much smaller unless you're going to suggest that extra
50 miles makes all the difference. But if you want to split hairs - the
new york subway also has flat fares.

and it carries more passengers. Ironic how russia with
its bankrupt economy can subsidise when the UK, supposedly one of the top
10 richest countries in the world, can't.


UK does.

Not as much as it should and its slowly being reduced as a percentage.

B2003

On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 14:28:10 +0100, Peter Masson wrote:

You have to pay a GBP 5 deposit when you get an Oyster card, as well as the
credit you put on it. This stays on, as well as any unused credit, if you
keep the card for a further trip to London, though you can get the deposit
(and any unused credit) back if you hand your Oyster card in.

Thanks, that info is not so obvious on the website but on there somewhere I
presume.
So I drop into the newsagent by H&H buy an Oyster card & ask for £20
credit, I go do my travels & use £12.80 as I calculated, I then return the
Oyster to the shop on my return & get £7.20 back along with my £5 deposit?

CD

On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 09:44:20 +0000 (UTC), d
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 10:34:21 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote:
Try Moscow then - considerably bigger than london. Flat fare.


Bigger subsidy and smaller network.

Not that much smaller and it carries more passengers. Ironic how russia with
its bankrupt economy can subsidise when the UK, supposedly one of the top
10 richest countries in the world, can't.

How much extra Council Tax would you volunteer to pay, in order to
increase the subsidy enough to have a reasonably priced flat fare?