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In article , d
says...

On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:08:57 -0000
Jim [wake wrote:
Oh really? Which bits specifically?

B2003

Central Line :: Wanstead to beyond Liverpool Street [passenger had to
struggle to get the wheelchair down the ecalator]

So how did he manage that then? Stand up and hold it?

Jubilee Line :: Stratford to North Greenwich, Canary Wharf to London
Bridge, Canada Water to beyond London Bridge

Northern Line :: London Bridge to Euston

District Line :: East Ham travelling westbound, West Ham travelling
westbound, also at other times but I don't remember where.

Sorry, don't believe you. I've never seen anyone in a wheelchair on the tube.
Ever. What are the chances of you seeing them all those times and me never
seeing any? Slim.

B2003

Believe what you may, as one of your despised old gits that has
difficulty with stairs I am aware of station lifts. Whilst it's usually
buggies with the lifts, I have met wheelchair users using them at East
Ham and at West Ham.

I agree sightings are rare, that's why I remember them.

One day perhaps it will be you that needs such things, who knows?

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On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:42:13 -0000
Jim [wake wrote:
Believe what you may, as one of your despised old gits that has

Don't put words in my mouth thanks. Its simply a fact that all the 10s if not
100s of millions that will eventuallt be spent on making public transport
wheelchair accessable with all the compromises it entails could have funded
dial-a-ride for every wheelchair user in the city for life.

B2003

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In article ,
d wrote:
Your maths is up the spout. Its 6% of *possible* journeys but how many people
take the tube from say cockfosters to oakwood or epping to loughton? The
actually percentage of sane commuter journeys they can do is a lot higher.

I think you're probably wrong; but see my response to Colin for the detail.

--
Mike Bristow

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On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:59:08 +0000
Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
d wrote:
Your maths is up the spout. Its 6% of *possible* journeys but how many people
take the tube from say cockfosters to oakwood or epping to loughton? The
actually percentage of sane commuter journeys they can do is a lot higher.

I think you're probably wrong; but see my response to Colin for the detail.

No, I'm not wrong. If you worked it out based on possible journeys from
Zone 2+ into zone 1 for wheelchair users then it would give a better picture
of how well they're are catered for.

B2003

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"Mike Bristow" wrote in message
...

In article ,
wrote:
Er, probably not. I rather doubt that the number of journeys between each
possible pair of stations is equal.

True, but in the absence of data I approximated. :)

I really should put in a FoI request to get better data...

I would expect the steep-free stations
cover most of the busier stations so the percentage of journeys that are
possible step-free is much higher than 6%.

I think this is not true; look at the Central Line. The accessible
stations are Stratford (probably one of the busier stations on the
line; but I'd guess Liverpool Street and Bank are as busy), Woodford,
Roding Valley, Hainault, and Epping.

The other factor is that even if the start and destination are both
accessible, most interchange stations are not accessible which limits the
options further.

Peter Smyth

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In article ,
d wrote:
No, I'm not wrong. If you worked it out based on possible journeys from
Zone 2+ into zone 1 for wheelchair users then it would give a better picture
of how well they're are catered for.

OK.

I count 63 Z1 stations[1], of which 7 [2] are step free.

There are 66 stations that are step free; so there are 59 outside
zone 1. This gives disabled passengers 413 "commuter routes".

There are 270 stations in total; so 207 outside zone 1. This gives
non-disabled passengers 13041 "commuter routes".

This means that *by your preferred measure*, 3% of the tube is
accessible, instead of my 6%.

As it happens, disabled people are more likely to be unemployed, so
I suspect my estimate is closer to the scale of the problem than
yours; on the other hand, my analysis totally ignores the issue of
interchanges, which means that they're both overestimates.

I'm also ignoring the folk who travel to London via NR stations -
a disabled person who lives in Woking, for example, will have a
pretty big problem commuting to London even if Waterloo's underground
station is completely accessible.

Put simply: 6% isn't a bad estimate; better estimates would lower,
rather than raise, that figure. At least part of the reason that
you don't see disabled[3] people using the Tube is because it's basically
closed to them.

Cheers,
Mike



[1] From wikipedia, Aldgate, Aldgate East, Angel, Baker Street,
Bank, Barbican, Bayswater, Blackfriars LU, Bond Street, Borough,
Cannon Street LU, Chancery Lane, Charing Cross LU, Covent Garden,
Earl's Court, Edgware Road (Bakerloo), Edgware Road (Circle),
Elephant & Castle LU, Embankment, Euston LU, Euston Square, Farringdon,
Gloucester Road, Goodge Street, Great Portland Street, Green Park,
High Street Kensington, Holborn, Hyde Park Corner, King's Cross St.
Pancras LU, Knightsbridge, Lambeth North, Lancaster Gate, Leicester
Square, Liverpool Street LU, London Bridge LU, Mansion House, Marble
Arch, Marylebone LU, Monument, Moorgate, Notting Hill Gate, Old
Street, Oxford Circus, Paddington LU, Piccadilly Circus, Pimlico,
Queensway, Regent's Park, Russell Square, Sloane Square, South
Kensington, Southwark, St. James's Park, St. Paul's, Temple, Tottenham
Court Road, Tower Hill, Vauxhall LU, Victoria LU, Warren Street,
Waterloo LU, and Westminster

[2] By eyeballing the map, Kings X, Farringdon, Green Park,
Blackfriars, Westminster, Earls Court, and Southwark. I've not
counted Waterloo (as it's only the JLE part that's accessible);
Tower Gateway (as it's the DLR not LUL). I wouldn't be surprised
if I've miscounted.

[3] by which, of course, you mean "obviously disabled". Some
people don't "look" disabled, but still find stairs difficult
or impossible.

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Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
d wrote:
No, I'm not wrong. If you worked it out based on possible journeys from
Zone 2+ into zone 1 for wheelchair users then it would give a better picture
of how well they're are catered for.

OK.

I count 63 Z1 stations[1], of which 7 [2] are step free.

There are 66 stations that are step free; so there are 59 outside
zone 1. This gives disabled passengers 413 "commuter routes".

There are 270 stations in total; so 207 outside zone 1. This gives
non-disabled passengers 13041 "commuter routes".

This means that *by your preferred measure*, 3% of the tube is
accessible, instead of my 6%.

As it happens, disabled people are more likely to be unemployed, so
I suspect my estimate is closer to the scale of the problem than
yours; on the other hand, my analysis totally ignores the issue of
interchanges, which means that they're both overestimates.

I'm also ignoring the folk who travel to London via NR stations -
a disabled person who lives in Woking, for example, will have a
pretty big problem commuting to London even if Waterloo's underground
station is completely accessible.

Put simply: 6% isn't a bad estimate; better estimates would lower,
rather than raise, that figure. At least part of the reason that
you don't see disabled[3] people using the Tube is because it's basically
closed to them.

Cheers,
Mike



[1] From wikipedia, Aldgate, Aldgate East, Angel, Baker Street,
Bank, Barbican, Bayswater, Blackfriars LU, Bond Street, Borough,
Cannon Street LU, Chancery Lane, Charing Cross LU, Covent Garden,
Earl's Court, Edgware Road (Bakerloo), Edgware Road (Circle),
Elephant & Castle LU, Embankment, Euston LU, Euston Square, Farringdon,
Gloucester Road, Goodge Street, Great Portland Street, Green Park,
High Street Kensington, Holborn, Hyde Park Corner, King's Cross St.
Pancras LU, Knightsbridge, Lambeth North, Lancaster Gate, Leicester
Square, Liverpool Street LU, London Bridge LU, Mansion House, Marble
Arch, Marylebone LU, Monument, Moorgate, Notting Hill Gate, Old
Street, Oxford Circus, Paddington LU, Piccadilly Circus, Pimlico,
Queensway, Regent's Park, Russell Square, Sloane Square, South
Kensington, Southwark, St. James's Park, St. Paul's, Temple, Tottenham
Court Road, Tower Hill, Vauxhall LU, Victoria LU, Warren Street,
Waterloo LU, and Westminster

[2] By eyeballing the map, Kings X, Farringdon, Green Park,
Blackfriars, Westminster, Earls Court, and Southwark. I've not
counted Waterloo (as it's only the JLE part that's accessible);
Tower Gateway (as it's the DLR not LUL). I wouldn't be surprised
if I've miscounted.

[3] by which, of course, you mean "obviously disabled". Some
people don't "look" disabled, but still find stairs difficult
or impossible.

There's also the halfway house of the many stations that have escalators
rather than lifts: not very much use to wheelchair users, but very helpful
to many other travellers who may have trouble with stairs, particularly
when carrying luggage.

Like many others, I was in that category for a while after a knee
operation, and so am now much more attentive to stair-free locations, or at
least steps with good handrails. The UK is pretty good at providing
handrails on most staircases in public buildings, much better than many
other countries in, say, east Europe.

Incidentally, I remember the time when both of South Ken's Picc platforms
had stair-free access to road level, which was lost when the lifts were
replaced by escalators and stairs 40 years ago. That wouldn't happen today.

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In message

, at 17:24:07 on Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Recliner
remarked:
[3] by which, of course, you mean "obviously disabled". Some
people don't "look" disabled, but still find stairs difficult
or impossible.

There's also the halfway house of the many stations that have escalators
rather than lifts: not very much use to wheelchair users, but very helpful
to many other travellers who may have trouble with stairs, particularly
when carrying luggage.

Mindful that many stations with escalators (or indeed original lifts)
aren't completely step-free, typically having a short flight of steps
adjacent to the platform, and often a flight of steps to get from the
ticket concourse to the roadway outside.
--
Roland Perry

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66 step-free stations means 66! possible journeys which is about 5.443449390774432e92 or 5.4 yottillion yottillion yottillion yottillion yottillion yottillion yottillion yottillion journeys!!

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On 07/11/2012 09:26, Offramp wrote:
66 step-free stations means 66! possible journeys which is about 5.443449390774432e92
or 5.4 yottillion yottillion yottillion yottillion yottillion
yottillion yottillion yottillion journeys!!


I'm sure I'm troll feeding, but my maths is screaming in my head!!

66 stations means 66 x 65 possible journeys - or perhaps journey legs if
we are being pedantic.

Ok, there are 66! ways of visiting all 66 stations, but that comes into
the CBA category. grin/

Just my 0.02GBP contribution

Kevin