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Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In message , at 23:12:30 on Thu, 10
Jan 2013, Clive D. W. Feather remarked: 21. The station with the most platforms is Baker Street with 10 (Moorgate also has 10 platforms but only six are used by Tube trains - others are used by overground trains). How about Waterloo, with 26? They mean "station managed by LU, with the most platforms". 70. The first section of the Underground ran between Paddington (Bishop's Road) and Farringdon Street. The same section now forms part of the Circle, Hammersmith & City, and Metropolitan lines. Not the Met. According to TfL: "The Metropolitan line runs from Aldgate to Amersham, with branches to Chesham, Uxbridge and Watford covering 66.7km (41.5 miles)." Or are you being pedantic about the Baker St-Paddington bit? -- Roland Perry |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
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Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 19:52:04 +0000
Paul Corfield wrote: I've certainly seen some people - old and young - really struggle to coordinate their arms and legs to get on and off an escalator. They almost cause accidents through their hesitancy. Most women seem almost completely incapable of walking off the end of an escalator normally. B2003 |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
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Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
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Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
wrote:
In article , (Clive D. W. Feather) wrote: In message , Clive D. W. Feather wrote: 6. Many tube stations were used as air-raid shelters during the Second World War, but the Central Line was even converted into a fighter aircraft factory that stretched for over two miles, with its own railway system. Its existence remained an official secret until the 1980s. That would be why it's mentioned in the 1947 "A History of London Transport", then. Typo: that should have said "1974". I have here a 1971 reprint of "The story of London's Underground", published in 1963, second revision 1969. It includes a photo of the Plessey underground factory as plate 35. Did some aspect of its work remain secret until the 1980s? I must admit, I can't imagine why it would have done. It's not as if they were making equipment for Bletchley Park (or were they)? |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
Am 11.01.2013 00:12, schrieb Clive D. W. Feather:
147. A 2011 study suggested 30 per cent of passengers take longer routes due to the out-of-scale distances on the Tube map. I'm very skeptical of that claim. It may be true for the isolated case Paddington to Bond Street via Baker Street/Notting Hill Gate: "Although the second route is considerably slower (by about 15 per cent), some 30 per cent of travellers chose it, Professor Guo found." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2000847/30-passengers-longer-routes-Londons-Tube-map-misrepresents-distances-stations.html -- Kai Borgolte, Bonn |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In message , at 16:59:18 on Fri, 11
Jan 2013, Kai Borgolte remarked: 147. A 2011 study suggested 30 per cent of passengers take longer routes due to the out-of-scale distances on the Tube map. I'm very skeptical of that claim. It may be true for the isolated case Paddington to Bond Street via Baker Street/Notting Hill Gate: "Although the second route is considerably slower (by about 15 per cent), some 30 per cent of travellers chose it, Professor Guo found." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2000847/30-passengers-longer-routes-Londons-Tube-map-misrepresents-distances-stations.html As there's a sidebar with nine of the other "fascinating facts" in that article I think we can conclude it's the source of the 30% figure. However, it's by no means clear if the 30% is an overall figure (as suggested at the start of the article) "Experts who have studied the network, which has been growing since 1863 when the Metropolitan line opened, have found that as much as 30 per cent of the network's passengers take the 'wrong' - or longer - route between two stations." Or simply conflated with the figure from the later 'illustration' of Paddington to Bond St. So we'd have to read the full study (which does seem to be more than just a handful of trips). -- Roland Perry |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
"Kai Borgolte" wrote in message ... Am 11.01.2013 00:12, schrieb Clive D. W. Feather: 147. A 2011 study suggested 30 per cent of passengers take longer routes due to the out-of-scale distances on the Tube map. I'm very skeptical of that claim. It may be true for the isolated case Paddington to Bond Street via Baker Street/Notting Hill Gate: "Although the second route is considerably slower (by about 15 per cent), some 30 per cent of travellers chose it, Professor Guo found." I don't see that he can conclude that it's got anything to do with the journey "looking" shorted. In the case of catching a train from Padd it could easily be because access to the circle line platforms is simpler. Here's another one: What's the optimum route from Waterloo to King's Cross? The shortest route on the ground (whichever way that is) or the cross platform connection at Oxford Circus? And does knowledge about that connection make pax who go this way count as the "wrong way" or does lack of knowledge about the connection make pax who go another way count as the "wrong way"? tim |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
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Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
"David Walters" wrote in message
... On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:16:08 +0000, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:10:49 on Thu, 10 Jan 2013, David Walters remarked: 125. Nineteen stations just use lifts. They have stairs as well. A list I've been looking for but haven't been able to find is stations, or platforms really, that don't have publicly accessible stairs. I've always understood that every station with "only" lifts also has emergency stairs (that may not be well signposted for regular use). And also some stations still have the stairs despite now being fitted with escalators (TCR springs to mind). I think that is true but some stations have escalators and no fixed stairs, assuming everything is working. The stairs at Angel still seem to be present but I think I'd cause a disturbance if I exited the platforms that way. If you have a desire to avoid lifts and escalators then a lot of the underground is off limits and it is very hard to plan a route with available information. http://www.directenquiries.com/londo...d.aspx?tbclr=1 is useful for this sort of thing. Peter Smyth |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
"Kai Borgolte" wrote in message ...
Am 11.01.2013 00:12, schrieb Clive D. W. Feather: 147. A 2011 study suggested 30 per cent of passengers take longer routes due to the out-of-scale distances on the Tube map. I'm very skeptical of that claim. It may be true for the isolated case Paddington to Bond Street via Baker Street/Notting Hill Gate: "Although the second route is considerably slower (by about 15 per cent), some 30 per cent of travellers chose it, Professor Guo found." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2000847/30-passengers-longer-routes-Londons-Tube-map-misrepresents-distances-stations.html And someone who ignores Paddington station completely and walks to Lancaster Gate has a good chance of beating both of them. Peter Smyth |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
"Recliner" wrote in message ... The Telegraph has compiled a list of 150 "Tube facts" to go with the anniversary. Most will be known to the well informed members of this group, but some may not be, and some are bound to be disputed. Here's their list: Thanks for posting this, some great trivia :-) -- Edward Cowling North London UK http://twitter.com/gnilwoce http://mardoun.weebly.com/ http://www.facebook.com/ed.cowling |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
On 11/01/2013 09:06, Paul Cummins wrote:
We were about to embark at Dover, when (Recliner) came up to me and whispered: Are you seriously suggesting they should have celebrated the 150th anniversary of a bit of unimportant Essex railway seven years ago? No, but it is a bit disingenuous to do the same for a bit of unimportant London railway now... And anyway, what about the bits of "old" formation re-used by Docklands and Tramlink... I don't see their 150th being celebrated. While not celebrated as lavishly, ISTR there was some awareness of the 200th anniversary of bits of what is now Tramlink. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:22:30 +0000
Basil Jet wrote: On 2013\01\11 09:52, d wrote: Most women seem almost completely incapable of walking off the end of an escalator normally. Most women or most women in high heels? Most women regardless of footwear if the ones who use the tube are anything to go by. B2003 |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In message , Paul
Cummins wrote: On that basis, surely the "Tube" is 157 years old, as parts of the Central Line were first operated in 1856. Or perhaps you would prefer it to be 1858, the start date of service over part of the Hammersmith and City? How about 1837, when at least one station on the Bakerloo Line was opened? -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In message , at 18:20:45 on Fri, 11
Jan 2013, tim..... remarked: 147. A 2011 study suggested 30 per cent of passengers take longer routes due to the out-of-scale distances on the Tube map. I'm very skeptical of that claim. It may be true for the isolated case Paddington to Bond Street via Baker Street/Notting Hill Gate: "Although the second route is considerably slower (by about 15 per cent), some 30 per cent of travellers chose it, Professor Guo found." I don't see that he can conclude that it's got anything to do with the journey "looking" shorted. That's what academics do - they study things and come to conclusions. In the case of catching a train from Padd it could easily be because access to the circle line platforms is simpler. Erm, both routes he was comparing were from the Circle platforms. Here's another one: What's the optimum route from Waterloo to King's Cross? Well known to be via Oxford Circus. Because of the cross-platform change. The shortest route on the ground (whichever way that is) Did you read the article *at all*? Hint: it includes a geographic map as well. ps The shortest route on the ground is probably via Leicester Square (second shortest via Warren St) in both cases the Beck map quite closely resembling the geographic one. -- Roland Perry |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In message , Roland Perry
wrote: 6.35km according to official measurements. I assume you mean the railway, not the road. Yes. So that's 3.95 miles. Is the 0.06 mile (about 320ft) something to do with which end of the platform they are measuring from? Shrug. 6.35 would be mid-point at Chalfont to the buffer stop at Chesham. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In message , Roland Perry
wrote: 70. The first section of the Underground ran between Paddington (Bishop's Road) and Farringdon Street. The same section now forms part of the Circle, Hammersmith & City, and Metropolitan lines. Not the Met. According to TfL: "The Metropolitan line runs from Aldgate to Amersham, with branches to Chesham, Uxbridge and Watford covering 66.7km (41.5 miles)." Or are you being pedantic about the Baker St-Paddington bit? Yes. That section now forms part of the Circle and Hammersmith & City Lines, and parts of that section now form part of the District and Metropolitan Lines. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In article ,
(Peter Smyth) wrote: "David Walters" wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:16:08 +0000, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:10:49 on Thu, 10 Jan 2013, David Walters remarked: 125. Nineteen stations just use lifts. They have stairs as well. A list I've been looking for but haven't been able to find is stations, or platforms really, that don't have publicly accessible stairs. I've always understood that every station with "only" lifts also has emergency stairs (that may not be well signposted for regular use). And also some stations still have the stairs despite now being fitted with escalators (TCR springs to mind). I think that is true but some stations have escalators and no fixed stairs, assuming everything is working. The stairs at Angel still seem to be present but I think I'd cause a disturbance if I exited the platforms that way. If you have a desire to avoid lifts and escalators then a lot of the underground is off limits and it is very hard to plan a route with available information. http://www.directenquiries.com/londo...d.aspx?tbclr=1 is useful for this sort of thing. Unless you want to interchange between lines. I looked at Oxford Circus but could only get information between platform and street. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
What was the point? Where did it go?
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Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
Offramp wrote:
What was the point? Where did it go? Presumably Harrow & Wealdstone, on the Brum to Euston line. |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 18:20:45 on Fri, 11 Jan 2013, tim..... remarked: 147. A 2011 study suggested 30 per cent of passengers take longer routes due to the out-of-scale distances on the Tube map. I'm very skeptical of that claim. It may be true for the isolated case Paddington to Bond Street via Baker Street/Notting Hill Gate: "Although the second route is considerably slower (by about 15 per cent), some 30 per cent of travellers chose it, Professor Guo found." I don't see that he can conclude that it's got anything to do with the journey "looking" shorted. That's what academics do - they study things and come to conclusions. Yes, but that doesn't make those conclusions right. In the case of catching a train from Padd it could easily be because access to the circle line platforms is simpler. Erm, both routes he was comparing were from the Circle platforms. Oh Who would do that, now that you also have to change at Edgware road? Surely anyone deciding that "change at Baker St" is the way to go is then going to seek out the platform that has direct trains. And the circle line isn't it! Here's another one: What's the optimum route from Waterloo to King's Cross? Well known to be via Oxford Circus. Because of the cross-platform change. The shortest route on the ground (whichever way that is) Did you read the article *at all*? Yes. Hint: it includes a geographic map as well. ps The shortest route on the ground is probably via Leicester Square (second shortest via Warren St) in both cases the Beck map quite closely resembling the geographic one. I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm only questioning this assertion that the "right" way that people should choose to go can be usefully constructed from the shortest route on the ground, and that if they don't do this they have done something wrong. Surely the "right way" is the quickest including average connection time(s) regardless of the length of track that is traversed. |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In message , at 13:31:19 on Sat, 12
Jan 2013, tim..... remarked: I don't see that he can conclude that it's got anything to do with the journey "looking" shorted. That's what academics do - they study things and come to conclusions. Yes, but that doesn't make those conclusions right. But it does mean they are likely to be embarrassed if it's wrong, and spend more time on the research than the average tabloid journalist. In the case of catching a train from Padd it could easily be because access to the circle line platforms is simpler. Erm, both routes he was comparing were from the Circle platforms. Oh Who would do that, now that you also have to change at Edgware road? Surely anyone deciding that "change at Baker St" is the way to go is then going to seek out the platform that has direct trains. And the circle line isn't it! Perhaps the journalist (not the academic) got the map wrong. Like much of the rest of this report, plenty has got lost in the retelling. The shortest route on the ground (whichever way that is) Did you read the article *at all*? Yes. Hint: it includes a geographic map as well. ps The shortest route on the ground is probably via Leicester Square (second shortest via Warren St) in both cases the Beck map quite closely resembling the geographic one. I'm not suggesting otherwise. The "whichever" above implies you weren't sure (or hadn't looked). I'm only questioning this assertion that the "right" way that people should choose to go can be usefully constructed from the shortest route on the ground, and that if they don't do this they have done something wrong. Who was asserting that? Via Oxford Circus is not the shortest route. Surely the "right way" is the quickest including average connection time(s) regardless of the length of track that is traversed. Most of the time, yes, but there are other considerations such as reliability of dwell time (no use if the route is the quickest, but the connections only work between xx.20 and xx.30 because of the timetable), how crowded they might be if it's rush hour and so on. I'd also look at whether the robustness - having a plausible "plan B" if I encounter disruption en-route. -- Roland Perry |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 13:31:19 on Sat, 12 Jan 2013, tim..... remarked: I don't see that he can conclude that it's got anything to do with the journey "looking" shorted. That's what academics do - they study things and come to conclusions. Yes, but that doesn't make those conclusions right. But it does mean they are likely to be embarrassed if it's wrong, and spend more time on the research than the average tabloid journalist. Surely you've been around long enough to know that all such reports only come to the conclusion that the writer thinks that his audience wants. In the case of catching a train from Padd it could easily be because access to the circle line platforms is simpler. Erm, both routes he was comparing were from the Circle platforms. Oh Who would do that, now that you also have to change at Edgware road? Surely anyone deciding that "change at Baker St" is the way to go is then going to seek out the platform that has direct trains. And the circle line isn't it! Perhaps the journalist (not the academic) got the map wrong. Like much of the rest of this report, plenty has got lost in the retelling. The shortest route on the ground (whichever way that is) Did you read the article *at all*? Yes. Hint: it includes a geographic map as well. ps The shortest route on the ground is probably via Leicester Square (second shortest via Warren St) in both cases the Beck map quite closely resembling the geographic one. I'm not suggesting otherwise. The "whichever" above implies you weren't sure (or hadn't looked). I'm only questioning this assertion that the "right" way that people should choose to go can be usefully constructed from the shortest route on the ground, and that if they don't do this they have done something wrong. Who was asserting that? The article did. Via Oxford Circus is not the shortest route. I know, but it is probably the quickest. So in my book, that makes it the "right" way tim |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In message , at 15:26:17 on Sat, 12
Jan 2013, tim..... remarked: I'm only questioning this assertion that the "right" way that people should choose to go can be usefully constructed from the shortest route on the ground, and that if they don't do this they have done something wrong. Who was asserting that? The article did. I can't see where. The only discussion of distances "on the ground" is in terms of making the entire trip on foot, not comparing the track miles. -- Roland Perry |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
We were about to embark at Dover, when (Clive D. W.
Feather) came up to me and whispered: How about 1837, when at least one station on the Bakerloo Line was opened? That one is news to me... -- Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead Wasting Bandwidth since 1981 ---- If it's below this line, I didn't write it ---- |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
Am 11.01.2013 17:24, schrieb Roland Perry:
So we'd have to read the full study (which does seem to be more than just a handful of trips). ftp://ftp.hsrc.unc.edu/pub/TRB2011/data/papers/11-0419.pdf Lots of models and coefficients in few pages, but I can't spot the 30 percent result. "The main dataset is the Rolling Origin and Destination Survey (RODS), conducted by Transport for London (TfL) or its predecessor organization London Transport from 1998 to 2005. RODS records travel paths including the access, transfer, and egress stations for more than 250,000 trips in the Underground network." -- Kai Borgolte, Bonn |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
Paul Cummins wrote:
We were about to embark at Dover, when (Clive D. W. Feather) came up to me and whispered: How about 1837, when at least one station on the Bakerloo Line was opened? That one is news to me... See my earlier reply. |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In message , at 13:31:19 on Sat, 12
Jan 2013, tim..... remarked: Erm, both routes he was comparing were from the Circle platforms. Who would do that, now that you also have to change at Edgware road? A kind person has emailed me the original report, and it was published in July 2010, based on data collected by LUL from 1998 to 2005 - when the Circle was still a circle (and not a teacup). The full report is 22 pages long, but doesn't seem to have "30%" in it anywhere, although it's full of very jargony/geeky statistics and terminology. In terms of "proving what the funders wanted", the main objective appears to be to investigate why travellers don't make the best decisions about where to change trains, and how things like the presentation of the map could be altered to help make their journeys quicker. One example that chimes well with me is the way Green Park looks like a good place to change trains, but isn't (very long walks). It actually deserves the dumbbell-icons even more than Baker St and Euston, and about the same as Bank/Monument. -- Roland Perry |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
Changing at Green Park is okay as long as one always changes by going up to ticket hall level and back down.
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Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 13:31:19 on Sat, 12 Jan 2013, tim..... remarked: Erm, both routes he was comparing were from the Circle platforms. Who would do that, now that you also have to change at Edgware road? A kind person has emailed me the original report, and it was published in July 2010, based on data collected by LUL from 1998 to 2005 - when the Circle was still a circle (and not a teacup). The full report is 22 pages long, but doesn't seem to have "30%" in it anywhere, although it's full of very jargony/geeky statistics and terminology. In terms of "proving what the funders wanted", the main objective appears to be to investigate why travellers don't make the best decisions about where to change trains, and how things like the presentation of the map could be altered to help make their journeys quicker. One example that chimes well with me is the way Green Park looks like a good place to change trains, but isn't (very long walks). It actually deserves the dumbbell-icons even more than Baker St and Euston, and about the same as Bank/Monument. perhaps a blow-up map of the central area with walking times between platforms would be useful (in addition to the current full map, not squeezed on the same map) tim |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In message , at
19:02:28 on Sat, 12 Jan 2013, Offramp remarked: Changing at Green Park is okay as long as one always changes by going up to ticket hall level and back down. Yes, and changing at Warren St is a bit like that too. -- Roland Perry |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 19:02:28 -0800 (PST), Offramp
wrote: Changing at Green Park is okay as long as one always changes by going up to ticket hall level and back down. Obviously that applies to people changing to/from the Picc. It's a perfectly good interchange station between the Victoria and Jubilee lines. |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 19:02:28 on Sat, 12 Jan 2013, Offramp remarked: Changing at Green Park is okay as long as one always changes by going up to ticket hall level and back down. Yes, and changing at Warren St is a bit like that too. no, you only have to go to the "half" landing. And it's a damned sight shorter that the walk at many other stations. tim |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In message , at 12:12:18 on Sun, 13
Jan 2013, tim..... remarked: Changing at Green Park is okay as long as one always changes by going up to ticket hall level and back down. Yes, and changing at Warren St is a bit like that too. no, you only have to go to the "half" landing. That's why it's "a bit" like Green Park, not identical. -- Roland Perry |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In message , at 14:03:57 on
Thu, 10 Jan 2013, David Walters remarked: If you have a desire to avoid lifts and escalators then a lot of the underground is off limits and it is very hard to plan a route with available information. There's a list of "Stair equipped" stations he http://www.geofftech.co.uk/tube/facts.html -- Roland Perry |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
On 12/01/2013 15:26, tim..... wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 13:31:19 on Sat, 12 Jan 2013, tim..... remarked: I don't see that he can conclude that it's got anything to do with the journey "looking" shorted. That's what academics do - they study things and come to conclusions. Yes, but that doesn't make those conclusions right. But it does mean they are likely to be embarrassed if it's wrong, and spend more time on the research than the average tabloid journalist. Surely you've been around long enough to know that all such reports only come to the conclusion that the writer thinks that his audience wants. News reports certainly, but less so with academic studies; or at least it is a different sense of what the audience wants - "this needs more research/a grant/rethinking/whatever, rather than "... is the only language they understand". I did get hold of a copy of the paper when it came out. Based on my knowledge of the relevant branch of mathematics, erm, it had some long words and looked convincing. ISTR the study was supported by TfL. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Daily Telegraph: 150 fascinating Tube facts
In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote: In message , at 14:03:57 on Thu, 10 Jan 2013, David Walters remarked: If you have a desire to avoid lifts and escalators then a lot of the underground is off limits and it is very hard to plan a route with available information. There's a list of "Stair equipped" stations he http://www.geofftech.co.uk/tube/facts.html That is very confusing when the information required is whether steps have to be negotiated to reach platforms as well as or instead of lifts or escalators. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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