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NB4L production buses
One aspect of the new buses I note hasn't been commented on here is the
registrations. Although the prototypes were given London LT12 xxx marks last year, the new buses on route 24 I saw on Tuesday all seem to have Belfast marks LTZ10xx where xx is the same as the LTxx fleet number of each bus. These are therefore the first new buses with marks matching fleet numbers since the new registration marks system was introduced in 2001, if not before. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
NB4L production buses
On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 9:13:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
One aspect of the new buses I note hasn't been commented on here is the registrations. Although the prototypes were given London LT12 xxx marks last year, the new buses on route 24 I saw on Tuesday all seem to have Belfast marks LTZ10xx where xx is the same as the LTxx fleet number of each bus. These are therefore the first new buses with marks matching fleet numbers since the new registration marks system was introduced in 2001, if not before. -- Colin Rosenstiel These would also appear to be the first TfL specified bus fleet numbers since the sale of East Thames buses. Which leads one to wonder whether TfL should just specify its own type designations and fleet numbers for all franchise operators' buses. If you've ever looked down on a modern London bus you'll notice that they bear their fleet number preceded with an operator code in large letters on the roof. Maybe it'd be easier for the TfL CCTV operators who need that information if there was a single type designation and fleet numbering system across London? Qhat with a reintroduction of a single bus livery and now imposition of a new standard type of bus on operators, this could lead to the Tory Mayor of London presiding over something his socialist predecessor failed to achieve, a re-establishment of Central Road Services in all but name... -- Roy |
NB4L production buses
On 12/07/2013 19:25, Paul Corfield wrote:
All the other buses are owned by the bus companies or else leased by them. Why should a company like Abellio which has no link to a former LT subsidiary be forced to muck around with its asset management and accounting systems just because TfL say so? It's daft and if TfL were going to impose this on firms then I'd expect the extra costs to be factored in. You then have to ask why the public purse has to have these extra costs imposed? It does presumably work for the trains, which have a common numbering system, even if it is fraying around the edges a bit. Qhat with a reintroduction of a single bus livery and now imposition of a new standard type of bus on operators, this could lead to the Tory Mayor of London presiding over something his socialist predecessor failed to achieve, a re-establishment of Central Road Services in all but name... This rather presumes that Boris really gives a toss about bus services. If he doesn't, might that mean TfL is ignored and left to get on and do whatever it wants to do? He doesn't - the NB4L is a Policy Exchange idea not a Boris idea. All that has happened under Boris is that fares have gone up more than 50% in 5 years, Anyone know what % of bus passengers actually pay full fare? subsidy has been slashed and any meaningful expansion of services to keep pace with soaring demand has stopped. Wasn't there a fair bit of expansion under the previous mayor? As an incomer, I think there could a risk of overkill (with the exception of one route which needs reinstating, of course!). His first term promise to deliver new orbital bus services was killed off on cost grounds after the X26 trial. Was there actually a promise to deliver, or merely an intention to investigate? I get the impression that a lot of political "promises" don't actually exist other than in the media reporting of them, with the politicians' "subject to further study" and "if it is viable" disclaimers getting "lost" in the reporting. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
NB4L production buses
Paul Corfield wrote
On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 23:13:14 +0100, Arthur Figgis wrote: Anyone know what % of bus passengers actually pay full fare? Not off the top of my head but you need to define what "full fare" actually means in the context of your question. The £2.40 cash fare or the Oyster £1.40 fare. Not only that but AF unthinkingly asked "% of bus passengers" So if a passanger makes 4 or 4+ Oyster journeys a day they must be counted as not paying full fare that day and probably the same if they used a ODTC or season ticket. If the question was "% of bus journeys where the full fare was paid" the answer is different again. Same outside London - is a day ticket or return ticket or PlusBus "full fare" ? -- Mike D |
NB4L production buses
Paul Corfield wrote in
: His [Boris's] first term promise to deliver new orbital bus services was killed off on cost grounds after the X26 trial. Do you mean that the X26 trial was regarded as unsuccessful? Every time I use it, it seems pretty busy - often with standing passengers between Sutton and Kingston or beyond. Is the 30 minute frequency still regarded as a trial? Peter -- || Peter CS ~ Epsom ~ UK || |
NB4L production buses
On 15/07/2013 16:28, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 13:24:51 +0000 (UTC), Peter CS wrote: Paul Corfield wrote in : His [Boris's] first term promise to deliver new orbital bus services was killed off on cost grounds after the X26 trial. Do you mean that the X26 trial was regarded as unsuccessful? Every time I use it, it seems pretty busy - often with standing passengers between Sutton and Kingston or beyond. Is the 30 minute frequency still regarded as a trial? Yes it was deemed unsuccessful because although there was an increase in usage the resultant revenue in no way covered the extra costs nor were there compensating passenger benefits. Read the TfL Panel paper from about 4 years ago. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-Services.pdf I know it is very busy - it always has been when I've used it. When you're fighting for a seat at East Croydon station you know you've got a problem! The current service level has been preserved despite the extra cost in subsidy. I think it was politically unacceptable to try to go back to an hourly service. The service has since been retendered so there might have been some decrease in costs as a result of competitive bidding for the contract. I've heard claims recently that X26 drivers have been refusing to carry passengers with luggage, causing much confusion at Heathrow. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
NB4L production buses
On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:55:11 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote: Instead we have buses that resemble saunas on wheels being touted as the latest best thing ever. I'd love to know how many regular users of the 24 have abandoned the route since it was converted to NB4L operation. Some of the tweets from people using the route have been far from good reading for TfL / the Mayor. Is the aircon in these buses faulty or just inadequate for the job? -- Spud |
NB4L production buses
On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 12:23:00 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote: On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:21:23 +0000 (UTC), wrote: On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:55:11 +0100 Paul Corfield wrote: Instead we have buses that resemble saunas on wheels being touted as the latest best thing ever. I'd love to know how many regular users of the 24 have abandoned the route since it was converted to NB4L operation. Some of the tweets from people using the route have been far from good reading for TfL / the Mayor. Is the aircon in these buses faulty or just inadequate for the job? They don't have air con according to statements from TfL. They have an air cooling system. I presume that means its just forced induction. Given the price of the buses you'd think air con would have been specified. Or perhaps it would have reduced their supposed enviromental credentials. TfL and the Mayor have said the system is fixed but this has emerged from the depths of Twitter this morning. It's from a West Midlands based air conditioning systems business. http://www.graysonts.com/grayson-sol...-con-meltdown/ So more powerful fans then :o) -- Spud |
NB4L production buses
On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:56:30 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote: Full refrigerant based air con, as used on buses in the Far East, would require an extra axle on the NB4L (based on informed comment Can I take it then that the Boris Bus is very close to being at the weight limit for 2 axle vehicles? The NB4L is trying to be a bendy open boarding, double deck, platform "air con" bus and it doesn't really work on the evidence to date. It's heavy, the air cooling seems not to work, it doesn't carry 87 passengers (as per TfL's spec) and the conductor guards the open platform to try to stop people hurting themselves. Thats what you get when a politician who knows nothing about buses sets out the brief for a new one. I'm not sure its going to turn out to be quite the showpiece reminder of his tenure that he thinks it will. So more powerful fans then :o) Possibly but this runs the risk of having to redesign the bus possibly adding weight or increasing power requirements. That then starts to I suppose they could always swallow some pride and simply put in opening windows. Cheap and it works. Though I won't be laying money on it happening. -- Spud |
NB4L production buses
wrote in message
... On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:56:30 +0100 Paul Corfield wrote: The NB4L is trying to be a bendy open boarding, double deck, platform "air con" bus and it doesn't really work on the evidence to date. It's heavy, the air cooling seems not to work, it doesn't carry 87 passengers (as per TfL's spec) and the conductor guards the open platform to try to stop people hurting themselves. That's what you get when a politician who knows nothing about buses sets out the brief for a new one. I'm not sure its going to turn out to be quite the showpiece reminder of his tenure that he thinks it will. Exactly the same problem as on the railways then, with the already loathed IEP trains - which haven't even been built yet. |
NB4L production buses
On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 11:43:29 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote: won't happen. For the time being we're lumbered with the things. On a related note, does anyone know where all the Bendy buses ended up? I know some went to Malta but where did the rest end up - scrap or slogging it out in some provicial towns? -- Spud |
NB4L production buses
On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 10:53:12 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote: Some of the above allocations are quite small. Several of the routes they are used on are those serving University routes with very highly peaked loadings. Our loss is their gain I suppose. I believe there are still hundreds of bendies slowly rotting away on leasing company premises. What a waste of perfectly decent vehicles that could be used to boost capacity on London routes which desperately need it. That would require the mop headed buffoon to admit he got it wrong and thats never happened AFAIK. -- Spud |
NB4L production buses
On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 12:23:00 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:21:23 +0000 (UTC), d wrote: Is the aircon in these buses faulty or just inadequate for the job? They don't have air con according to statements from TfL. They have an air cooling system. TfL and the Mayor have said the system is fixed but this has emerged from the depths of Twitter this morning. It's from a West Midlands based air conditioning systems business. http://www.graysonts.com/grayson-sol...-con-meltdown/ That page is no longer available. I wonder if someone objected to the wording. |
NB4L production buses
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 10:46:31 +0100, Richard wrote: On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:56:30 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote: On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 11:34:48 +0000 (UTC), wrote: On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 12:23:00 +0100 Paul Corfield wrote: On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:21:23 +0000 (UTC), wrote: On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:55:11 +0100 Paul Corfield wrote: Instead we have buses that resemble saunas on wheels being touted as the latest best thing ever. I'd love to know how many regular users of the 24 have abandoned the route since it was converted to NB4L operation. Some of the tweets from people using the route have been far from good reading for TfL / the Mayor. Is the aircon in these buses faulty or just inadequate for the job? They don't have air con according to statements from TfL. They have an air cooling system. The statement on the Grayson web site calls it air conditioning (incorrectly?), it certainly felt like it on the NB4L I used recently where it was working well (if you allow for the bloody big hole in the back of the bus). [...] Full refrigerant based air con, as used on buses in the Far East, would require an extra axle on the NB4L (based on informed comment elsewhere). There are thousands of tri-axle double deckers with air con in service and the majority of UK designs or derived therefrom. The relief from hot and humid weather in HK / Singapore offered by air con buses is very nice and I can completely understand why bus operators there specifiy it. Is that because (as spud-u-dont-like suggests) they are *so* close to the limit? As you know, full air con can be found on (new) buses much closer to home in plenty of northern European cities and the weight is easily supported on a single decker -- perhaps that's the difference. I believe there are 2-axle double deckers in the UK with air con... somewhere. Well air con on a single deck only has to chill the one deck. There are some old Darts from HK in service with Stagecoach that have air con from their time there. I think Citaros are also fitted with a good air cooling system. The issue with double deckers is, well, the extra deck and all the ducting and large refrigerant unit at the rear. HK has just allowed a waiver to its usual axle load regs to allow two axle full air con deckers to run. A few are Wright bodied Volvos but most are an updated design of Alexander Dennis's Enviro 400 double deck. Last time I was there were only a few in service so not easy to track down. There are now many more in service but it is still the case that tri-axle deckers predominate as they offer the right match between capacity and length for HK's roads. First Eastern got some of those in the late 90s. Beautiful on a day like this. I seem to remember they all had to be taken out of service in October however... lack of heating... Not sure if that's one of those urban legends but I was living in Norwich at the time and remember some problem of the sort! James |
NB4L production buses
wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 11:43:29 +0100 Paul Corfield wrote: won't happen. For the time being we're lumbered with the things. On a related note, does anyone know where all the Bendy buses ended up? I know some went to Malta but where did the rest end up - scrap or slogging it out in some provicial towns? Some are on the Park and Ride in Norwich, with Konect of Dereham. Can be seen daily on the Costessey Park and Ride - 605 i think - 60-something definitely! James |
NB4L production buses
In message , at 10:53:12 on
Mon, 22 Jul 2013, Paul Corfield remarked: On a related note, does anyone know where all the Bendy buses ended up? I know some went to Malta but where did the rest end up - scrap or slogging it out in some provicial towns? Not a comprehensive list but these are ones I know of. Go North East - Gateshead Arriva North West - Liverpool Brighton and Hove - Brighton Arriva Midlands - Leicester Konectbus - Norwich Go Ahead London - London for private hire work McGills - Glasgow Wilts and Dorset - Bournemouth I saw some on student-routes in Leicester (where for some reason they built the main student accommodation several miles from the University itself) -- Roland Perry |
NB4L production buses
On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 10:53:12 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote: Not a comprehensive list but these are ones I know of. Go North East - Gateshead Arriva North West - Liverpool Brighton and Hove - Brighton Arriva Midlands - Leicester Konectbus - Norwich Go Ahead London - London for private hire work McGills - Glasgow Wilts and Dorset - Bournemouth I think Isle of Man Transport have trialled a bendy but not sure if any have ended up there for service. Some of the above allocations are quite small. Several of the routes they are used on are those serving University routes with very highly peaked loadings. Re Liverpool, I believe that only route 500 (John Lennon Airport to Liverpool One, limited stops, circular) is served by bendybuses. They probably don't need very many buses to cover it. -- John Ray |
NB4L production buses
Paul Corfield wrote:
I think Isle of Man Transport have trialled a bendy but not sure if any have ended up there for service. I think Stansted airport car parks got a few, or at least the seats are the same. Some of the above allocations are quite small. Several of the routes they are used on are those serving University routes with very highly peaked loadings. Would be perfect for the Manchester 42, as I've been saying for years. I believe there are still hundreds of bendies slowly rotting away on leasing company premises. What a waste of perfectly decent vehicles that could be used to boost capacity on London routes which desperately need it. Quite. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
NB4L production buses
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:53:12AM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
I believe there are still hundreds of bendies slowly rotting away on leasing company premises. What a waste of perfectly decent vehicles that could be used to boost capacity on London routes which desperately need it. They could be usefully used on a few London routes, such as 25, but not many. They're good on routes that are all three of: * long * mostly straight * with lots of passengers Putting them on twisty routes through a busy city centre was stupid. -- David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information Only some sort of ghastly dehumanised moron would want to get rid of Routemasters -- Ken Livingstone, four years before he got rid of 'em |
NB4L production buses
On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 11:46:03 +0100
David Cantrell wrote: On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:53:12AM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote: I believe there are still hundreds of bendies slowly rotting away on leasing company premises. What a waste of perfectly decent vehicles that could be used to boost capacity on London routes which desperately need it. They could be usefully used on a few London routes, such as 25, but not many. They're good on routes that are all three of: * long * mostly straight * with lots of passengers Putting them on twisty routes through a busy city centre was stupid. They're used like that all over europe (in plenty of cities with narrow streets I might add) without the issues the cycling lobby and Boris claimed they had in london. So either the europeans are all idiots or someone was telling porkies to further their own agenda. -- Spud |
NB4L production buses
wrote:
They're used like that all over europe (in plenty of cities with narrow streets I might add) without the issues the cycling lobby and Boris claimed they had in london. So either the europeans are all idiots or someone was telling porkies to further their own agenda. Many other European cities with them have better dedicated cycle infrastructure rather than having them in bus lanes. Two types of vehicle less compatible with one another are hard to imagine. But the UK doesn't know how to do bus lanes. The Dutch and Germans get that one right. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
NB4L production buses
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NB4L production buses
On 23 Jul 2013 12:23:05 GMT
Neil Williams wrote: wrote: They're used like that all over europe (in plenty of cities with narrow streets I might add) without the issues the cycling lobby and Boris claimed they had in london. So either the europeans are all idiots or someone was telling porkies to further their own agenda. Many other European cities with them have better dedicated cycle infrastructure rather than having them in bus lanes. Two types of vehicle less compatible with one another are hard to imagine. When cyclists pay road tax for their bikes then they can have a say in how the roads are laid out and what they share them with. Until then they can put up or shut up. -- Spud |
NB4L production buses
wrote:
When cyclists pay road tax for their bikes then they can have a say in how the roads are laid out and what they share them with. Until then they can put up or shut up. What a stupid statement, given that getting the cyclists out of your way (as a driver or bus passenger) would also be to your benefit. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
NB4L production buses
Roland Perry wrote:
Or those European cities don't have very many cyclists. Hamburg has plenty of cyclists and bendy buses, including "XXL" 3-section ones. It also has appropriate infrastructure for both, which does not generally include mixing cycles and buses other than when they both use general traffic lanes. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
NB4L production buses
On 23 Jul 2013 14:19:50 GMT
Neil Williams wrote: wrote: When cyclists pay road tax for their bikes then they can have a say in how the roads are laid out and what they share them with. Until then they can put up or shut up. What a stupid statement, given that getting the cyclists out of your way (as a driver or bus passenger) would also be to your benefit. They'd also be out of my way if they were on motorbikes. Perhaps we shouldn't bother taxing and insuring those either then eh? Cyclists pay sod all to use their bikes on the roads therefore their opinions are irrelevant. -- Spud |
NB4L production buses
wrote:
Cyclists pay sod all to use their bikes on the roads therefore their opinions are irrelevant. So you'd rather be stuck behind a cyclist in your car/on the bus because the cyclist doesn't pay road tax, than to suck it up and get them off the road meaning your car/bus journey is not delayed? A motorcycle is different because it doesn't obstruct other traffic as it both has high acceleration and a high top speed. Have you perhaps never been to London and seen how much of a problem this is for all road users? Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
NB4L production buses
On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 13:43:17 +0000, spud-u-dont-like wrote:
When cyclists pay road tax for their bikes then they can have a say in how the roads are laid out and what they share them with. Until then they can put up or shut up. Since "paying road tax" is the important factor, do low-CO2 cars, older cars, and disabled drivers somehow carry lower priority in your view? |
NB4L production buses
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NB4L production buses
On 23/07/2013 15:19, Neil Williams wrote:
Roland Perry wrote: Or those European cities don't have very many cyclists. Hamburg has plenty of cyclists and bendy buses, including "XXL" 3-section ones. It also has appropriate infrastructure for both, which does not generally include mixing cycles and buses other than when they both use general traffic lanes. Did Britain's mid-C20th contribution to urban regeneration in many German cities perhaps lead to the laying out of more motor-friendly roads? -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
NB4L production buses
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NB4L production buses
In message , at 12:42:43
on Tue, 23 Jul 2013, remarked: When cyclists pay road tax for their bikes then they can have a say in how the roads are laid out and what they share them with. Until then they can put up or shut up. There has no such thing as road tax for decades. Many motor vehicles pay no more than cycles to be put on the road. When was VAT on new cars scrapped? -- Roland Perry |
NB4L production buses
On 23/07/2013 18:56, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:42:43 on Tue, 23 Jul 2013, remarked: When cyclists pay road tax for their bikes then they can have a say in how the roads are laid out and what they share them with. Until then they can put up or shut up. There has no such thing as road tax for decades. Many motor vehicles pay no more than cycles to be put on the road. When was VAT on new cars scrapped? Same time as it was on bikes? So, are we ready to discuss the number of pubs built with beer tax yet? (discussion of telephone technology and local government in Peterborough to follow). -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
NB4L production buses
On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 18:56:54 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
There has no such thing as road tax for decades. Many motor vehicles pay no more than cycles to be put on the road. When was VAT on new cars scrapped? VAT on bicycles is exactly the same as VAT on new cars. 20%. There are bicycles out there on which the purchaser would pay a considerably higher amount of VAT than they could on a new car. |
NB4L production buses
"James Heaton" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 11:43:29 +0100 Paul Corfield wrote: won't happen. For the time being we're lumbered with the things. On a related note, does anyone know where all the Bendy buses ended up? I know some went to Malta but where did the rest end up - scrap or slogging it out in some provicial towns? Some are on the Park and Ride in Norwich, with Konect of Dereham. Can be seen daily on the Costessey Park and Ride - 605 i think - 60-something definitely! 604! Passed one on the A47 today. James |
NB4L production buses
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little excise duty. The vast majority are not exempt. |
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said they they should not participate in deciding how this should be done. As you seem to be on the side of cyclists, perhaps you can explain something to me. Why is that cyclists prefer to cycle down main roads instead of quiet residential roads and back streets? |
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obliged to pay for building pubs. They are obliged to pay for road building and maintenance. They are also obliged to pay the ancillary, consequential costs of both motoring and drinking. Therefore both should be taxed. |
NB4L production buses
In message , at 10:06:21 on Wed, 24
Jul 2013, Robin9 remarked: There has no such thing as road tax for decades. Many motor vehicles pay no more than cycles to be put on the road. A gross over-statement. A small minority of motor vehicles pay no or very little excise duty. The vast majority are not exempt. And unless there are lots of bikes costing £5k, then the majority of drivers paid more VAT than the cyclists, when the items were new. -- Roland Perry |
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