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National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
Dear all
I've had conflicting advice on this, and have not been able to turn up the definitive rule: I have a Freedom Pass, my wife an Over-60 card and we both have Senior Railcards/ At, say, 1030hrs, we can go the booking office at Woolwich Arsenal and buy tickets from Z6 boundary to National Rail destinations which are available on Southeastern's ticketing system (works as far as Bournemouth, Portsmouth etc, not just SE destinations). The train concerned does not have to stop at the boundary station. However, boundary fares are only available at stations – not online – thus allowing the ticket office staff to check that we have valid passes from WWA to the boundary. So to book an advance fare online I consult the Freedom Pass map to identify the last station inside the boundary and use that as my Departure station and book an advance or super advance ticket from there. I have been doing this regularly for a couple of years to make significant savings – eg East Croydon to Portsmouth Harboud for just £3.30 – and the only comment from a gripper seeing my FPass, Railcard and discounted ticket has been a cheeful "Good morning, Sir, I'm pleased to see you know how to get the cheapest ticket". However, I recommended this technique to a friend, who was mortified to be told on a SWT service (within the rules, ie 11.xx departure from WAT) that his Surbiton – Southampton ticket was invalid for WAT-SOU since the train did not stop at SUR. The gripper told him sternly "You're a pensioner, and you have obviously been given bad advice by an unathourised person, so in this case I won't issue a PF, but you will need to pay the correct fare on future journeys" [with an unspoken, but obvious "…or else" at the end]. Q! Are we – and the Southern conductor – within thr rules, or was the SWT interpretation correct? Q2 Assuming we are correct, what are the "magic words" which we could quote to avoid a PF? TIA folks – and BTW I will post in the next few days a detailed response doc re cashless bus ticketing. Ken |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
kenw wrote:
Q! Are we – and the Southern conductor – within thr rules, or was the SWT interpretation correct? Q2 Assuming we are correct, what are the "magic words" which we could quote to avoid a PF? TIA folks – and BTW I will post in the next few days a detailed response doc re cashless bus ticketing. By a strict reading of the rules, the conductor was correct, a ticket from Surbiton is only valid on trains that stop at Surbiton, while a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 woule be valid on any train. In practice, I suspect the vast majority of staff would have accepted it without a second glance, particularly as the fare from Boundary Zone 6 is exactly the same as the fare from Surbiton. Peter Smyth |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
On 21/08/2013 21:15, Peter Smyth wrote:
By a strict reading of the rules, the conductor was correct, a ticket from Surbiton is only valid on trains that stop at Surbiton, while a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 woule be valid on any train. What I find surprising is that when you explicitly ask at a ticket office for a ticket from the Boundary Zone to some station X, you are often sold one from a specific station just inside the boundary. If you query it they always say "this costs the same". That may be true but it misses the point as the ticket validity is different. Is this because some types of ticket machine make it hard for the ticket clerk to select the BZ as the origin of the journey so they do this out of laziness, or is there some other explanation? -- Clive Page |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
Clive Page wrote:
On 21/08/2013 21:15, Peter Smyth wrote: By a strict reading of the rules, the conductor was correct, a ticket from Surbiton is only valid on trains that stop at Surbiton, while a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 woule be valid on any train. What I find surprising is that when you explicitly ask at a ticket office for a ticket from the Boundary Zone to some station X, you are often sold one from a specific station just inside the boundary. If you query it they always say "this costs the same". That may be true but it misses the point as the ticket validity is different. Is this because some types of ticket machine make it hard for the ticket clerk to select the BZ as the origin of the journey so they do this out of laziness, or is there some other explanation? You can even get sold the one from the station even if the Boundary Zone one is more expensive one train an hour out of 4-6 doesn't stop) It depends on which ticket seller you get. -- Mark |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
In message , at 22:31:23 on Thu, 22
Aug 2013, Clive Page remarked: By a strict reading of the rules, the conductor was correct, a ticket from Surbiton is only valid on trains that stop at Surbiton, while a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 woule be valid on any train. What I find surprising is that when you explicitly ask at a ticket office for a ticket from the Boundary Zone to some station X, you are often sold one from a specific station just inside the boundary. If you query it they always say "this costs the same". That may be true but it misses the point as the ticket validity is different. Is this because some types of ticket machine make it hard for the ticket clerk to select the BZ as the origin of the journey so they do this out of laziness, or is there some other explanation? It shouldn't be difficult, BZ6 is code 0072; see para 3: http://www.perry.co.uk/avantix_for_dummies.html -- Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
On 23/08/2013 10:25, Roland Perry wrote:
It shouldn't be difficult, BZ6 is code 0072; see para 3: http://www.perry.co.uk/avantix_for_dummies.html Thanks Roland, that's very useful. But is just possible that some ticket clerks don't know this stuff? -- Clive Page |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
In message , at 14:53:19 on Fri, 23
Aug 2013, Clive Page remarked: It shouldn't be difficult, BZ6 is code 0072; see para 3: http://www.perry.co.uk/avantix_for_dummies.html Thanks Roland, that's very useful. But is just possible that some ticket clerks don't know this stuff? If their job, all day long, is selling tickets, they really ought to know at least a substantial subset of those codes. Or have a company-provided crib sheet. And when the alphanumeric for BZ6 is "Boundary Zone 6", there's really no excuse... -- Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
On 2013-08-21 20:15:42 +0000, Peter Smyth said:
Thanks, guys So for the avoidance of doubt… To get the cheapest advance fare online while taking advantage of the Freedom Pass, we should avoid trains which do NOT stop somewhere in or near the boundary of Z6. Doesn't affect our regular Portsmouth trips on Southern, since they all stop at E Croydon. But on other routes, the advice must be to check the timetable for stops of the service concerned. Just a shame the online booking systems don't understand BZ5. Ken kenw wrote: Q! Are we – and the Southern conductor – within thr rules, or was the SWT interpretation correct? Q2 Assuming we are correct, what are the "magic words" which we could quote to avoid a PF? TIA folks – and BTW I will post in the next few days a detailed response doc re cashless bus ticketing. By a strict reading of the rules, the conductor was correct, a ticket from Surbiton is only valid on trains that stop at Surbiton, while a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 woule be valid on any train. In practice, I suspect the vast majority of staff would have accepted it without a second glance, particularly as the fare from Boundary Zone 6 is exactly the same as the fare from Surbiton. Peter Smyth |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
On 21/08/2013 21:15, Peter Smyth wrote:
By a strict reading of the rules, the conductor was correct, a ticket from Surbiton is only valid on trains that stop at Surbiton, while a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 woule be valid on any train. A Freedom Pass (and 60+ Oyster) is treated as a Season Ticket (albeit a time-restricted one) for the purposes of Condition 19(c) of the National Conditions of Carriage, thus the train does not need to stop at the relevant station as long as you're travelling on a participating TOC (i.e. all of them except East Coast, EMT, Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Hull Trains and Virgin). A briefing to this effect went out some time ago, but it appears that some staff are in need of a reminder... |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
In message , at 17:14:45 on Tue, 27
Aug 2013, Barry Salter remarked: A Freedom Pass (and 60+ Oyster) is treated as a Season Ticket (albeit a time-restricted one) for the purposes of Condition 19(c) of the National Conditions of Carriage, That's very helpful, thanks. thus the train does not need to stop at the relevant station as long as you're travelling on a participating TOC (i.e. all of them except East Coast, EMT, Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Hull Trains and Virgin). That list is almost as long as a "what did the Romans do for us" list. -- Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:14:45 on Tue, 27 Aug 2013, Barry Salter remarked: A Freedom Pass (and 60+ Oyster) is treated as a Season Ticket (albeit a time-restricted one) for the purposes of Condition 19(c) of the National Conditions of Carriage, That's very helpful, thanks. thus the train does not need to stop at the relevant station as long as you're travelling on a participating TOC (i.e. all of them except East Coast, EMT, Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Hull Trains and Virgin). That list is almost as long as a "what did the Romans do for us" list. It's basically a list of all the TOCs that don't have any trains stopping twice within the Zones (HEx being an oddity) and thus get no money for Freedom Passes. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
In message
..net, at 07:52:49 on Wed, 28 Aug 2013, Neil Williams remarked: thus the train does not need to stop at the relevant station as long as you're travelling on a participating TOC (i.e. all of them except East Coast, EMT, Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Hull Trains and Virgin). That list is almost as long as a "what did the Romans do for us" list. It's basically a list of all the TOCs that don't have any trains stopping twice within the Zones (HEx being an oddity) and thus get no money for Freedom Passes. Watford Junction being just outside Z8 has a lot to answer for. Life would be simpler, but I presume ToC revenue would be impacted, if it was in Z8, which is what geographic common sense would dictate. -- Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
Roland Perry wrote:
In message .net, at 07:52:49 on Wed, 28 Aug 2013, Neil Williams remarked: thus the train does not need to stop at the relevant station as long as you're travelling on a participating TOC (i.e. all of them except East Coast, EMT, Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Hull Trains and Virgin). That list is almost as long as a "what did the Romans do for us" list. It's basically a list of all the TOCs that don't have any trains stopping twice within the Zones (HEx being an oddity) and thus get no money for Freedom Passes. Watford Junction being just outside Z8 has a lot to answer for. Life would be simpler, but I presume ToC revenue would be impacted, if it was in Z8, which is what geographic common sense would dictate. Why would it be lower? Currently, Oyster users from Watford Junction have to use the Overground, so LM and SN get no share of their Oyster journeys. Virgin isn't affected either way, as you're not allowed to travel between Watford and Euston on Virgin, regardless of ticket type. |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
In message
, at 09:04:31 on Wed, 28 Aug 2013, Recliner remarked: thus the train does not need to stop at the relevant station as long as you're travelling on a participating TOC (i.e. all of them except East Coast, EMT, Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Hull Trains and Virgin). That list is almost as long as a "what did the Romans do for us" list. It's basically a list of all the TOCs that don't have any trains stopping twice within the Zones (HEx being an oddity) and thus get no money for Freedom Passes. Watford Junction being just outside Z8 has a lot to answer for. Life would be simpler, but I presume ToC revenue would be impacted, if it was in Z8, which is what geographic common sense would dictate. Why would it be lower? Because I believe the ToCs (and TfL) arrange the rules to maximise their income, and that's therefore the only plausible reason Watford Junction isn't in Z8. -- Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
Recliner wrote:
Why would it be lower? Currently, Oyster users from Watford Junction have to use the Overground, No they don't. so LM and SN get no share of their Oyster journeys. Yes they do. Virgin isn't affected either way, as you're not allowed to travel between Watford and Euston on Virgin, regardless of ticket type. This bit is correct. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
Roland Perry wrote:
Watford Junction being just outside Z8 has a lot to answer for. Life would be simpler, but I presume ToC revenue would be impacted, if it was in Z8, which is what geographic common sense would dictate. As VT don't carry passengers between Euston and Watford (nor should they, as they'd end up full of commuters) it would change nothing. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:04:31 on Wed, 28 Aug 2013, Recliner remarked: thus the train does not need to stop at the relevant station as long as you're travelling on a participating TOC (i.e. all of them except East Coast, EMT, Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Hull Trains and Virgin). That list is almost as long as a "what did the Romans do for us" list. It's basically a list of all the TOCs that don't have any trains stopping twice within the Zones (HEx being an oddity) and thus get no money for Freedom Passes. Watford Junction being just outside Z8 has a lot to answer for. Life would be simpler, but I presume ToC revenue would be impacted, if it was in Z8, which is what geographic common sense would dictate. Why would it be lower? Because I believe the ToCs (and TfL) arrange the rules to maximise their income, and that's therefore the only plausible reason Watford Junction isn't in Z8. Or even zone 9, like Amersham and Chesham. Funnily enough, Watford Met station is only in zone 7, and it's about as far out, and only about a mile away, from the Junction. The main effect of Watford Junction being outside the zones is that Freedom Passes and other London concessionary tickets aren't valid to it except on LO, an special fares apply on Oyster (which are actually very cheap in contra flow). |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
Neil Williams wrote:
Recliner wrote: Why would it be lower? Currently, Oyster users from Watford Junction have to use the Overground, No they don't. so LM and SN get no share of their Oyster journeys. Yes they do. Yes, you're right. I was confusing Oyster (which is allowed) and Freedom Passes and other concessionary fares (which aren't). There are also special Oyster fares, which are good valid when travelling against the flow. Virgin isn't affected either way, as you're not allowed to travel between Watford and Euston on Virgin, regardless of ticket type. This bit is correct. |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
In message
. net, at 14:38:09 on Wed, 28 Aug 2013, Neil Williams remarked: Watford Junction being just outside Z8 has a lot to answer for. Life would be simpler, but I presume ToC revenue would be impacted, if it was in Z8, which is what geographic common sense would dictate. As VT don't carry passengers between Euston and Watford (nor should they, as they'd end up full of commuters) it would change nothing. But the passengers we are talking about aren't being carried only to Watford (if it were inside the zones) but from BZ8 to whatever the next Virgin-serviced station is, or beyond. -- Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
On Wednesday, 28 August 2013 15:51:27 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message . net, at 14:38:09 on Wed, 28 Aug 2013, Neil Williams remarked: Watford Junction being just outside Z8 has a lot to answer for. Life would be simpler, but I presume ToC revenue would be impacted, if it was in Z8, which is what geographic common sense would dictate. As VT don't carry passengers between Euston and Watford (nor should they, as they'd end up full of commuters) it would change nothing. But the passengers we are talking about aren't being carried only to Watford (if it were inside the zones) but from BZ8 to whatever the next Virgin-serviced station is, or beyond. -- Roland Perry Travelcards on Oyster are valid on Virgin (and in theory on Scotrail, but I don't think it saves anything) if combined with a paper ticket from the boundary zone of the Travelcard. |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
Roland Perry wrote:
But the passengers we are talking about aren't being carried only to Watford (if it were inside the zones) but from BZ8 to whatever the next Virgin-serviced station is, or beyond. To be more specific than what I said, a Freedom Pass is only valid where that TOC operates trains that call at two stations in the zone *and you are allowed to use them to travel between those two stations*, therefore they receive funding. As WFJ is pick up only northbound/set down southbound, this is not the case, so not valid. This always used to be the case for Boundary Zone tickets as well, probably still is, because otherwise they have not received any money from the Travelcard. Outboundary Travelcards are different because where such a TOC can be used this is accounted in. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
Matthew Dickinson wrote:
Travelcards on Oyster are valid on Virgin (and in theory on Scotrail, but I don't think it saves anything) if combined with a paper ticket from the boundary zone of the Travelcard. Is that true? If so the rules have changed, they didn't used to be per my other post. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
Thanks much for that.
We can now cite 19c to those awaiting reminders… And of course the diehard jobsworths. Ken On 2013-08-27 16:14:45 +0000, Barry Salter said: On 21/08/2013 21:15, Peter Smyth wrote: By a strict reading of the rules, the conductor was correct, a ticket from Surbiton is only valid on trains that stop at Surbiton, while a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 woule be valid on any train. A Freedom Pass (and 60+ Oyster) is treated as a Season Ticket (albeit a time-restricted one) for the purposes of Condition 19(c) of the National Conditions of Carriage, thus the train does not need to stop at the relevant station as long as you're travelling on a participating TOC (i.e. all of them except East Coast, EMT, Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Hull Trains and Virgin). A briefing to this effect went out some time ago, but it appears that some staff are in need of a reminder... |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
In message
..net, at 22:57:11 on Wed, 28 Aug 2013, Neil Williams remarked: Travelcards on Oyster are valid on Virgin (and in theory on Scotrail, but I don't think it saves anything) if combined with a paper ticket from the boundary zone of the Travelcard. Is that true? If so the rules have changed, they didn't used to be per my other post. What I find so disappointing is that the 'rule' (whatever it is) is so hard to find. I've given up after several minutes of Googling. -- Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
In message , at 09:32:21 on
Thu, 29 Aug 2013, Paul Corfield remarked: We can now cite 19c to those awaiting reminders… And of course the diehard jobsworths. Here's a link to the Conditions of Carriage http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static...tent/NRCOC.pdf for your delectation or printing off ;-) Is there also a list of what tickets qualify as "passes issued on behalf of a PTE or local authority" and "leisure travel pass". For example, in what sense is a Freedom Pass not "issued by a LA belonging to Boris" [or is it simply an exception to the rule]? And is TfL a PTE. Are "Rover" and "Britrail" the same set as "leisure travel passes", or are there other additions/subtractions by way of exceptions? -- Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
In message , at
09:16:39 on Wed, 28 Aug 2013, Matthew Dickinson remarked: Travelcards on Oyster are valid on Virgin (and in theory on Scotrail, but I don't think it saves anything) if combined with a paper ticket from the boundary zone of the Travelcard. Would it be correct to say that: the Oyster Travelcard validity you mention is because the minimum available is a "7 day season ticket"? a Paper one-day Travelcard is not a season, but a ODTC plus a BZ ticket *is* allowable because it's actually transformed into a 'new ticket' viz: the return half of an outboundary Travelcard. there's some dispute as to whether Virgin accept Oyster-based products *at all*. [What official document confirms or denies this?] -- Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
On Thursday, 29 August 2013 09:43:09 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:32:21 on Thu, 29 Aug 2013, Paul Corfield remarked: We can now cite 19c to those awaiting reminders… And of course the diehard jobsworths. Here's a link to the Conditions of Carriage http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static...tent/NRCOC.pdf for your delectation or printing off ;-) Is there also a list of what tickets qualify as "passes issued on behalf of a PTE or local authority" and "leisure travel pass". For example, in what sense is a Freedom Pass not "issued by a LA belonging to Boris" [or is it simply an exception to the rule]? And is TfL a PTE. TfL is not a PTE. Are "Rover" and "Britrail" the same set as "leisure travel passes", or are there other additions/subtractions by way of exceptions? From the CoC "leisure travel pass...includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and Britrail passes" Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
On Thursday, 29 August 2013 09:51:05 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:16:39 on Wed, 28 Aug 2013, Matthew Dickinson remarked: Travelcards on Oyster are valid on Virgin (and in theory on Scotrail, but I don't think it saves anything) if combined with a paper ticket from the boundary zone of the Travelcard. Would it be correct to say that: the Oyster Travelcard validity you mention is because the minimum available is a "7 day season ticket"? a Paper one-day Travelcard is not a season, but a ODTC plus a BZ ticket *is* allowable because it's actually transformed into a 'new ticket' viz: the return half of an outboundary Travelcard. there's some dispute as to whether Virgin accept Oyster-based products *at all*. [What official document confirms or denies this?] -- Roland Perry Virgin have to treat Oyster cards (and ITSO cards) the same as paper tickets under section 9 of the CoC. "Any reference in these conditions to the term "ticket" includes an Electronic Ticket unless specifically stated otherwise. An Electronic Ticket may be stored on a: (i)Smartcard (including an Oyster or ITSO card); (ii)payment card or identity card; (iii)mobile telephone; (iv)personal organiser; (v)other mobile electronic device; " An interesting webpage on this subject is at: http://virgintrains.org.uk/ (Not the official Virgin Trains website) |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
In message , at
03:09:18 on Thu, 29 Aug 2013, Matthew Dickinson remarked: Travelcards on Oyster are valid on Virgin (and in theory on Scotrail, but I don't think it saves anything) if combined with a paper ticket from the boundary zone of the Travelcard. Would it be correct to say that: the Oyster Travelcard validity you mention is because the minimum available is a "7 day season ticket"? a Paper one-day Travelcard is not a season, but a ODTC plus a BZ ticket *is* allowable because it's actually transformed into a 'new ticket' viz: the return half of an outboundary Travelcard. there's some dispute as to whether Virgin accept Oyster-based products *at all*. [What official document confirms or denies this?] Virgin have to treat Oyster cards (and ITSO cards) the same as paper tickets under section 9 of the CoC. What's your authority for that? I'm fairly sure XC doesn't have to accept EMT's ITSO tickets between Nottingham and Derby, for example. ps Any comment on my other questions. pps I wish you'd sort out your quoting (which I have not fixed, above, because doing so gets tiresome). -- Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
In message , at
03:00:31 on Thu, 29 Aug 2013, Matthew Dickinson remarked: And is TfL a PTE. TfL is not a PTE. Where's a list of organisations which are? Are "Rover" and "Britrail" the same set as "leisure travel passes", or are there other additions/subtractions by way of exceptions? From the CoC "leisure travel pass...includes rover tickets, travel passes, What's the definition (or a list of) the somewhat generic expression "travel pass". flexipass tickets and Britrail passes" "Flexipass" seems to be carnet-style travel pass. -- Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
On Thursday, 29 August 2013 13:03:04 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at Where's a list of organisations which are? PTEs were set up under section 9 of the 1968 Transport Act http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/73/enacted It starts "If in the case of any area in Great Britain outside Greater London..." http://www.pteg.net/ explains more about them. Are "Rover" and "Britrail" the same set as "leisure travel passes", or are there other additions/subtractions by way of exceptions? From the CoC "leisure travel pass...includes rover tickets, travel passes, What's the definition (or a list of) the somewhat generic expression "travel pass". flexipass tickets and Britrail passes" "Flexipass" seems to be carnet-style travel pass. -- Roland Perry Flexipasses are tickets such as the 3 in 7 passes which have to be dated. Carnets are treated for Conditions of Carriage purposes as single tickets. |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
On Thursday, 29 August 2013 12:58:37 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
What's your authority for that? I'm fairly sure XC doesn't have to accept EMT's ITSO tickets between Nottingham and Derby, for example. -- Roland Perry The authority is the Conditions of Carriage. Cross Country do have to accept ITSO cards, unless the tickets contained on the card are operator specific. |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
On 27/08/2013 17:14, Barry Salter wrote:
On 21/08/2013 21:15, Peter Smyth wrote: By a strict reading of the rules, the conductor was correct, a ticket from Surbiton is only valid on trains that stop at Surbiton, while a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 woule be valid on any train. A Freedom Pass (and 60+ Oyster) is treated as a Season Ticket (albeit a time-restricted one) for the purposes of Condition 19(c) of the National Conditions of Carriage, thus the train does not need to stop at the relevant station as long as you're travelling on a participating TOC (i.e. all of them except East Coast, EMT, Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Hull Trains and Virgin). A briefing to this effect went out some time ago, but it appears that some staff are in need of a reminder... So can I use a BZ6 to Reading extension on an FGW express now? I recall this being banned in earler times. Peter Lawrence |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
Peter Lawrence wrote on 29 August 2013 21:31:23 ...
On 27/08/2013 17:14, Barry Salter wrote: On 21/08/2013 21:15, Peter Smyth wrote: By a strict reading of the rules, the conductor was correct, a ticket from Surbiton is only valid on trains that stop at Surbiton, while a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 woule be valid on any train. A Freedom Pass (and 60+ Oyster) is treated as a Season Ticket (albeit a time-restricted one) for the purposes of Condition 19(c) of the National Conditions of Carriage, thus the train does not need to stop at the relevant station as long as you're travelling on a participating TOC (i.e. all of them except East Coast, EMT, Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Hull Trains and Virgin). A briefing to this effect went out some time ago, but it appears that some staff are in need of a reminder... So can I use a BZ6 to Reading extension on an FGW express now? I recall this being banned in earler times. That was when FGW only ran the express services out of Paddington, with Thames Trains (later First Great Western Link) running the stopping services. Since 2006 it's all been one franchise, so BZ6 to X tickets are now valid on all FGW services. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
In message , at
09:08:49 on Thu, 29 Aug 2013, Matthew Dickinson remarked: On Thursday, 29 August 2013 12:58:37 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote: What's your authority for that? I'm fairly sure XC doesn't have to accept EMT's ITSO tickets between Nottingham and Derby, for example. The authority is the Conditions of Carriage. Cross Country do have to accept ITSO cards, unless the tickets contained on the card are operator specific. I can only see a paragraph which indicates the opposite: Each ticket is issued subject to: .... the conditions which apply to Electronic Tickets, Smartcards, other devices used for storing Electronic Tickets and certain types of reduced and discounted fare tickets as set out in the notices and other publications issued by the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use; In other words, all the train company has to do is issue a notice saying "sorry, no ITSO cards accepted". -- Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
In message , at
09:03:49 on Thu, 29 Aug 2013, Matthew Dickinson remarked: Where's a list of organisations which are? PTEs were set up under section 9 of the 1968 Transport Act http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/73/enacted It starts "If in the case of any area in Great Britain outside Greater London..." http://www.pteg.net/ explains more about them. Thanks. For completeness, that list is: Greater Manchester (Transport for Greater Manchester), Merseyside (Merseytravel), South Yorkshire (SYPTE), Tyne and Wear (Nexus), West Midlands (Centro) and West Yorkshire (Metro). Are "Rover" and "Britrail" the same set as "leisure travel passes", or are there other additions/subtractions by way of exceptions? From the CoC "leisure travel pass...includes rover tickets, travel passes, What's the definition (or a list of) the somewhat generic expression "travel pass". flexipass tickets and Britrail passes" "Flexipass" seems to be carnet-style travel pass. Flexipasses are tickets such as the 3 in 7 passes which have to be dated. Carnets are treated for Conditions of Carriage purposes as single tickets. As I thought. -- Roland Perry |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
Thanks, Paul
My bedtime reading will never be the same again! On 2013-08-29 08:32:21 +0000, Paul Corfield said: On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 01:01:06 +0100, kenw wrote: Thanks much for that. We can now cite 19c to those awaiting reminders And of course the diehard jobsworths. Ken Here's a link to the Conditions of Carriage http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static...tent/NRCOC.pdf for your delectation or printing off ;-) |
National Rail tickets beyond the Freedom Pass boundary
On 29/08/2013 23:50, Richard J. wrote:
Peter Lawrence wrote on 29 August 2013 21:31:23 ... So can I use a BZ6 to Reading extension on an FGW express now? I recall this being banned in earler times. That was when FGW only ran the express services out of Paddington, with Thames Trains (later First Great Western Link) running the stopping services. Since 2006 it's all been one franchise, so BZ6 to X tickets are now valid on all FGW services. Though FGW like to try and say they're not valid on HST services in the evening peak. An Off-Peak Day Single or Return from Boundary Zone 6 to Reading Stations via Slough carries validity code W1 (Valid by any train except those timed to depart before 09:30 Mondays to Fridays, excluding Public Holidays). An Off-Peak Return, on the other hand, carries Validity Code 5K which *does* have the list of barred trains in the evening peak. Good innit? Cheers, Barry |
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