[x-posted to utl]

On 07/03/2014 12:22, Chris Miles-Patrick Date wrote:
I've noticed London Overground have instigated a new technique to detect fare dodgers on the GOBLIN line.

Instead of the usual station entrance/exit blockades and between-station checks, they now do static on-platform and on-train checks prior to departure at Barking.

FYI, Barking is a c2c station, not Overground.

Firstly, two Travel Safe Officers (TSOs) stand at the staircase to platform 1 (Gospel Oak bay platform) and check tickets of pax. coming down the stairs from the concourse, another two TSOs stand at the ramp at the other end of the platform that allows access from the c2c/District Line platforms.

Secondly, just before the train is due to depart four TSOs jump on the train - one at each door, the conductor locks the train doors, the TSO do a revenue check of the train, the conductor then re-opens the doors to allow the TSOs get off, the guard then re-locks the doors and the train departs for Gospel Oak.

As much as I understand the need for revenue protection on a line that is almost wholly open stationed, I think the whole "locking the train doors and taking everyone hostage" scenario is a little far fetched.

Far fetched is normally a description given to a pie in the sky idea
that seems unlikely - in this case it's happening, and I dare say it's
probably fairly successful in (a) catching fare evaders and (b)
deterring people from considering evading their fare.

As a tactic, it sounds similar to what I saw happen on occasion on bendy
bus routes (though IIRC the doors were not shut, but RPIs both boarded
and checked all tickets whilst others stayed at the doors checking the
tickets/Oysters of all who disembarked).

In contrast, it sometimes seems like significant swathes of TOC-run
suburban rail services in London simply don't have any revenue
protection strategy, barring automatic gates at key stations (and
sometimes they're only in operation during morning and evening peaks).


On the same subject, I haven't seen the 'proper' Overground RPIs for almost a year on the GOBLIN line - it's almost 100% secured by Travel Safe Officers now. Have TfL gave the fully-fledged RPIs the sack as well as the NLL conductors?

In article , (Mizter T) wrote:

In contrast, it sometimes seems like significant swathes of TOC-run
suburban rail services in London simply don't have any revenue
protection strategy, barring automatic gates at key stations (and
sometimes they're only in operation during morning and evening
peaks).

The opposite at Cambridge at present. The gates are open at peak hours at
the behest of the ORR because passenger volumes are so high.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 15:22:07
on Sun, 9 Mar 2014, remarked:
In contrast, it sometimes seems like significant swathes of TOC-run
suburban rail services in London simply don't have any revenue
protection strategy, barring automatic gates at key stations (and
sometimes they're only in operation during morning and evening
peaks).

The opposite at Cambridge at present. The gates are open at peak hours at
the behest of the ORR because passenger volumes are so high.

The current gates at Cambridge are typical of those shoe-horned into an
unsuitable location just to tick a box. Perhaps the redeveloped station
will have more room, more gates, and fewer such episodes.
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
15:22:07 on Sun, 9 Mar 2014, remarked:
In contrast, it sometimes seems like significant swathes of TOC-run
suburban rail services in London simply don't have any revenue
protection strategy, barring automatic gates at key stations (and
sometimes they're only in operation during morning and evening
peaks).

The opposite at Cambridge at present. The gates are open at peak hours at
the behest of the ORR because passenger volumes are so high.

The current gates at Cambridge are typical of those shoe-horned into
an unsuitable location just to tick a box. Perhaps the redeveloped
station will have more room, more gates, and fewer such episodes.

That's Greater Anglia's plan, yes. The gates were unstaffed at 23:45 tonight.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 19:50:23
on Sun, 9 Mar 2014, remarked:
In contrast, it sometimes seems like significant swathes of TOC-run
suburban rail services in London simply don't have any revenue
protection strategy, barring automatic gates at key stations (and
sometimes they're only in operation during morning and evening
peaks).

The opposite at Cambridge at present. The gates are open at peak hours at
the behest of the ORR because passenger volumes are so high.

The current gates at Cambridge are typical of those shoe-horned into
an unsuitable location just to tick a box. Perhaps the redeveloped
station will have more room, more gates, and fewer such episodes.

That's Greater Anglia's plan, yes. The gates were unstaffed at 23:45 tonight.

I'd be surprised if they were staffed at that hour, even during the
week. Other busy stations where I've experienced gates seem to have them
locked open by mid-evening, although perhaps Cambridge is a bit more
vibrant than average later into the night.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 00:51:18 on
Mon, 10 Mar 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
The current gates at Cambridge are typical of those shoe-horned into an
unsuitable location just to tick a box. Perhaps the redeveloped station
will have more room, more gates, and fewer such episodes.

And if I had been "ticket gate dictator" Cambridge would never have
been gated given the lack of space to provide sufficient gate
throughput for the demand.

These half arsed installations don't really help the case that
installing gates is generally beneficial (carefully worded on
purpose). That ORR has insisted they're left powered down in the peaks
shows someone got their sums and safety justification very wrong
indeed. If you can't cope with peak demand then don't bother.

Cambridge is slightly different from many places in that it has a steady
flow of passengers all day, and a very spread out peak (so I'm not sure
quite what hours Colin is talking about, although traditionally he's
rather Kings-Cross centric in his view).

The station is very busy at some 'traditional' off-peak times like 10am
on a Saturday, and in the evening the local (mainly outflow) peak is
from perhaps 4pm-6pm, but most London commuters won't be arriving back
until well after 6pm.

When they installed the gates the physical layout marooned the racks of
timetables/information leaflets (which are by the door to the platform).
I had supposed this to be an oversight that would be corrected, but
years later nothing has been done.

You can see them, top-middle, in this photo:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/ht...tos/800/o1424-
0000031.jpg
--
Roland Perry

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 21:19:04 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 15:22:07
on Sun, 9 Mar 2014, remarked:
In contrast, it sometimes seems like significant swathes of TOC-run
suburban rail services in London simply don't have any revenue
protection strategy, barring automatic gates at key stations (and
sometimes they're only in operation during morning and evening
peaks).

The opposite at Cambridge at present. The gates are open at peak hours
at the behest of the ORR because passenger volumes are so high.

The current gates at Cambridge are typical of those shoe-horned into an
unsuitable location just to tick a box. Perhaps the redeveloped station
will have more room, more gates, and fewer such episodes.

And if I had been "ticket gate dictator" Cambridge would never have
been gated given the lack of space to provide sufficient gate
throughput for the demand.

These half arsed installations don't really help the case that
installing gates is generally beneficial (carefully worded on
purpose). That ORR has insisted they're left powered down in the peaks
shows someone got their sums and safety justification very wrong
indeed. If you can't cope with peak demand then don't bother.

The new gate line will be about 50% larger I estimate. The circulating space
will about double.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 11:23:37 on
Mon, 10 Mar 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
Cambridge is slightly different from many places in that it has a steady
flow of passengers all day, and a very spread out peak (so I'm not sure
quite what hours Colin is talking about, although traditionally he's
rather Kings-Cross centric in his view).

The station is very busy at some 'traditional' off-peak times like 10am
on a Saturday, and in the evening the local (mainly outflow) peak is
from perhaps 4pm-6pm, but most London commuters won't be arriving back
until well after 6pm.

Sure but that simply means that the analysis required to get a
workable gateline has to be done in more depth and with excellent
input from the operating staff who know all these nuances about demand
over a day, over a week and over the year.

You could get 98% of it from a bloke with a clipboard stood there for a
week.

A judgement has to made about how you handle regular, predictable
demand and then what you do for events which might draw exceptional
crowds a couple of times a year.

Those sorts of events seem to get special measures anyway (eg lots of
bluebottles to handle the football hooligans) so the gateline is the
least of your worries.

London Underground has to deal with those variations all the
time and so do the TOCs.

I am not for a second saying it is easy just that it requires thought
and potentially a lot of money to get it right. I recall a post from
Colin (I think) that said the queues to buy tickets at Cambridge had
stretched out of the station and round to where I believe the Busway
bus stops are.

There are frequently huge queues to buy tickets at Cambridge (my
daughter has reported waiting half an hour to buy a £2 ticket from a
machine). That's partly because there are relatively few windows (and
machines) for a station with that much traffic, but also due to the
physical constraints of a listed building that's now had its circulating
area even more reduced by the barrier installation.

Back in the day there would be chaps with portable machines issuing
tickets as well as the windows/machines, and not providing that is
simply yet another way that the ToCs show lack of empathy with the
public.

Meanwhile, if they had a counter with Edmondson day-returns to London
sold for cash only, the number of people they could serve would more
than double instantly!

I found that staggering but I guess it illustrates the scale of demand.
It's been a long while since I visited Cambridge so I'm possibly out of
date about the stop locations.

The MGB stops have currently been moved "temporarily" about two hundred
yards further from the station, but I'm not betting they will move back
ever. I think they used to be where the rising bollards are in this
Streetview, but are now where the bus-in-the-distance with the red rear
lights is:

http://goo.gl/maps/ubaH2
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
19:50:23 on Sun, 9 Mar 2014, remarked:
In contrast, it sometimes seems like significant swathes of TOC-run
suburban rail services in London simply don't have any revenue
protection strategy, barring automatic gates at key stations (and
sometimes they're only in operation during morning and evening
peaks).

The opposite at Cambridge at present. The gates are open at peak hours
at the behest of the ORR because passenger volumes are so high.

The current gates at Cambridge are typical of those shoe-horned into
an unsuitable location just to tick a box. Perhaps the redeveloped
station will have more room, more gates, and fewer such episodes.

That's Greater Anglia's plan, yes. The gates were unstaffed at 23:45
tonight.

I'd be surprised if they were staffed at that hour, even during the
week. Other busy stations where I've experienced gates seem to have
them locked open by mid-evening, although perhaps Cambridge is a bit
more vibrant than average later into the night.

Until recently the gates were working whichever train I got home at night. I
seem to exit the station with only one or two trains still on the departure
screen all too often. The ORR ruling is quite recent so maybe they reduced
some staff hours.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 08:04:58 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

Cambridge is slightly different from many places in that it has a steady
flow of passengers all day, and a very spread out peak (so I'm not sure
quite what hours Colin is talking about, although traditionally he's
rather Kings-Cross centric in his view).

The station is very busy at some 'traditional' off-peak times like 10am
on a Saturday, and in the evening the local (mainly outflow) peak is
from perhaps 4pm-6pm, but most London commuters won't be arriving back
until well after 6pm.

Sure but that simply means that the analysis required to get a
workable gateline has to be done in more depth and with excellent
input from the operating staff who know all these nuances about demand
over a day, over a week and over the year. A judgement has to made
about how you handle regular, predictable demand and then what you do
for events which might draw exceptional crowds a couple of times a
year. London Underground has to deal with those variations all the
time and so do the TOCs.

Roland hasn't mentioned the bi-directional peak flows which mean none of the
present gates are bi-directional. The new gateline and the increase space
around it will allow some, including a wide gate, to be used both ways. No,
the peak flows are not the same in both directions!

I am not for a second saying it is easy just that it requires thought
and potentially a lot of money to get it right. I recall a post from
Colin (I think) that said the queues to buy tickets at Cambridge had
stretched out of the station and round to where I believe the Busway
bus stops are. I found that staggering but I guess it illustrates the
scale of demand. It's been a long while since I visited Cambridge so
I'm possibly out of date about the stop locations.

Saturday morning ticket queue lengths are legendary, yes. The queuing space
and ticket vending capacity is being to be greatly expanded, to 10 TVMs from
4 and to a maximum of 8 vending positions from 6.

--
Colin Rosenstiel