In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

David Cantrell wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 02:50:13PM +0100, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
David Cantrell wrote:
Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30

The Aldgate East - Victoria Fare is 2.20 peak/offpeak.
The Victoria - Thornton Heath fare is 3.70 peak, 2.60 offpeak.
Off peak starts in the evening at 19:00.
So there are _four_ possible fares for the journey home:
as a "two leg" trip, with both legs peak: 5.90.
as a "single leg" trip at peak time: 5.30.
as a "two leg trip", with the Vic - Thornton leg offpeak: 4.80
as a "single leg" trip at offpeak: 4.10

That means that if I leave Aldgate East at 18:49 I should be charged
a total of 4.80, because I won't go through the NR barriers at
Victoria until after 19:00. But I'm actually charged 5.30.

That looks correct -- the fare is based on when you entered, not
left, the system. So a journey starting at 18:49 is charged at peak
prices.

The difference is if the journey is split into two. I am not clear
why this journey might or might not be so split, given that touch
out and in at Victoria must happen.

Presumably it's an OSI, so it would be treated as one peak journey.

Indeed, but one example given in this thread managed to notice the
possibility of splitting and did so to minimise the fare.

You'd need to spend long enough in Victoria to exceed the OSI limit for it
to be treated as two journeys.

Look back up the thread:

Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because of the
49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 01:14:58 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:35:10 GMT, d wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 18:15:39 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
I am amazed that ordinary punters manage to miss those headlines. I
agree it would not be usual fare for tourists to see that info but
then again I've no idea what rip offs there are with the Navigo
smartcard in Paris or Miki in Melbourne.

Most cities don't have to worry about all this nonsense in the first place.
They charge flat fares - problem solved.

And yes it *could* be done in London - its done in new york and moscow, both
of which are larger systems than the underground.

I deliberately ruled out a flat fare as I knew you'd be along to
propose it. :-)

Naturally Because it makes sense.

The government and Mayor are forcing TfL to make their rail services
all run at an operating profit and make surpluses to fund some of
their investment funding. New York's transit funding is notoriously
bad and unpredictable and looking at their current budget there is a
massive operating loss of nearly $6bn just on the Subway and Staten

You see there you , the usual railway operating at a loss statistic. No one
ever accuses roads of running at a loss - how much money has the M1 made for
itself since it was built? Not a penny. Its the profits made by companies
using the infrastructure that matters, not profits made by the infrastructure
itself. That $6bn pales into insignificance compared to the money that Wall
Street makes every week thanks to employees getting their by subway. And its
the same story in london.

--
Spud

On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 21:07:04 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 20:51:18 on
Wed, 23 Apr 2014, Richard remarked:
a user should be able to keep to the "always touch in and out"
requirement -- regular, tourist or whatever. It isn't difficult!

There are still bear-traps for the unwary. For example getting off a
train at a London terminus having travelled that far on a paper ticket,
clutching an Oyster for onward tube travel, and using it to "always
touch out" at the barrier line, results in an unresolved journey.

Then I'll add another item to my "requirements", something I thought
of today and David Cantrell mentioned: make sure that NR stations can
do basic Oyster operations. There is, I think, only one system that
can, predictably the one made by Cubic. In its last days, APTIS could
do Oyster with the right extra hardware, but most of its replacements
couldn't. Fixing an unresolved journey and undoing a journey that was
started in error are the least NR should be able to do. Alternatively
give us a smartphone app to do it! (Some places sell tickets
"through" a smartphone app to a card -- I think RMV in Germany can do
this.)

Richard.

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

David Cantrell wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 02:50:13PM +0100, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
David Cantrell wrote:
Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30

The Aldgate East - Victoria Fare is 2.20 peak/offpeak.
The Victoria - Thornton Heath fare is 3.70 peak, 2.60 offpeak.
Off peak starts in the evening at 19:00.
So there are _four_ possible fares for the journey home:
as a "two leg" trip, with both legs peak: 5.90.
as a "single leg" trip at peak time: 5.30.
as a "two leg trip", with the Vic - Thornton leg offpeak: 4.80
as a "single leg" trip at offpeak: 4.10

That means that if I leave Aldgate East at 18:49 I should be charged
a total of 4.80, because I won't go through the NR barriers at
Victoria until after 19:00. But I'm actually charged 5.30.

That looks correct -- the fare is based on when you entered, not
left, the system. So a journey starting at 18:49 is charged at peak
prices.

The difference is if the journey is split into two. I am not clear
why this journey might or might not be so split, given that touch
out and in at Victoria must happen.

Presumably it's an OSI, so it would be treated as one peak journey.

Indeed, but one example given in this thread managed to notice the
possibility of splitting and did so to minimise the fare.

You'd need to spend long enough in Victoria to exceed the OSI limit for it
to be treated as two journeys.

Look back up the thread:

Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because of the
49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

It looks like it, as it made the last journey off-peak.

In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article


,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

David Cantrell wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 02:50:13PM +0100, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
David Cantrell wrote:
Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30

The Aldgate East - Victoria Fare is 2.20 peak/offpeak.
The Victoria - Thornton Heath fare is 3.70 peak, 2.60 offpeak.
Off peak starts in the evening at 19:00.
So there are _four_ possible fares for the journey home:
as a "two leg" trip, with both legs peak: 5.90.
as a "single leg" trip at peak time: 5.30.
as a "two leg trip", with the Vic - Thornton leg offpeak: 4.80
as a "single leg" trip at offpeak: 4.10

That means that if I leave Aldgate East at 18:49 I should be
charged a total of 4.80, because I won't go through the NR
barriers at Victoria until after 19:00. But I'm actually charged
5.30.

That looks correct -- the fare is based on when you entered, not
left, the system. So a journey starting at 18:49 is charged at peak
prices.

The difference is if the journey is split into two. I am not clear
why this journey might or might not be so split, given that touch
out and in at Victoria must happen.

Presumably it's an OSI, so it would be treated as one peak journey.

Indeed, but one example given in this thread managed to notice the
possibility of splitting and did so to minimise the fare.

You'd need to spend long enough in Victoria to exceed the OSI limit for
it to be treated as two journeys.

Look back up the thread:

Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged
because of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

It looks like it, as it made the last journey off-peak.

As would the 15 April journey I expect if split at Victoria.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article


,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

David Cantrell wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 02:50:13PM +0100, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
David Cantrell wrote:
Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30

The Aldgate East - Victoria Fare is 2.20 peak/offpeak.
The Victoria - Thornton Heath fare is 3.70 peak, 2.60 offpeak.
Off peak starts in the evening at 19:00.
So there are _four_ possible fares for the journey home:
as a "two leg" trip, with both legs peak: 5.90.
as a "single leg" trip at peak time: 5.30.
as a "two leg trip", with the Vic - Thornton leg offpeak: 4.80
as a "single leg" trip at offpeak: 4.10

That means that if I leave Aldgate East at 18:49 I should be
charged a total of 4.80, because I won't go through the NR
barriers at Victoria until after 19:00. But I'm actually charged
5.30.

That looks correct -- the fare is based on when you entered, not
left, the system. So a journey starting at 18:49 is charged at peak
prices.

The difference is if the journey is split into two. I am not clear
why this journey might or might not be so split, given that touch
out and in at Victoria must happen.

Presumably it's an OSI, so it would be treated as one peak journey.

Indeed, but one example given in this thread managed to notice the
possibility of splitting and did so to minimise the fare.

You'd need to spend long enough in Victoria to exceed the OSI limit for
it to be treated as two journeys.

Look back up the thread:

Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged
because of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

It looks like it, as it made the last journey off-peak.

As would the 15 April journey I expect if split at Victoria.

Yes, it's one of the mysteries of OSI, which was designed to benefit users,
but sometimes costs them for reasons that aren't instantly obvious. I
hadn't come across this variant before; more commonly, it attempts to
combine two fairly lengthy but legit journeys to create one that breaks
journey time limits, thus creating two (expensive) unresolved journeys. I
really think the algorithm in that case should be smarter, and it should
abort the attempted combination of multiple OSI journeys if it would lead
to unresolved compound journeys.

On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 18:47:07 GMT, d wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 01:14:58 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:35:10 GMT, d wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 18:15:39 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
I am amazed that ordinary punters manage to miss those headlines. I
agree it would not be usual fare for tourists to see that info but
then again I've no idea what rip offs there are with the Navigo
smartcard in Paris or Miki in Melbourne.

Most cities don't have to worry about all this nonsense in the first place.
They charge flat fares - problem solved.

And yes it *could* be done in London - its done in new york and moscow, both
of which are larger systems than the underground.

I deliberately ruled out a flat fare as I knew you'd be along to
propose it. :-)

Naturally Because it makes sense.

The government and Mayor are forcing TfL to make their rail services
all run at an operating profit and make surpluses to fund some of
their investment funding. New York's transit funding is notoriously
bad and unpredictable and looking at their current budget there is a
massive operating loss of nearly $6bn just on the Subway and Staten

This time Boltar, I am absolutely with you. Much as I would like to
see TfL replaced with a smarter, more humane, customer focused
organization, starving the Underground, buses et al of funds is no
solution.

Transportation (cue the parish language police) systems are enablers
of other activities. Nowhere is this truer than with urban transit
systems. An affordable transit network is a major boost to the
economy.

You see there you , the usual railway operating at a loss statistic. No one
ever accuses roads of running at a loss - how much money has the M1 made for
itself since it was built? Not a penny. Its the profits made by companies
using the infrastructure that matters, not profits made by the infrastructure
itself. That $6bn pales into insignificance compared to the money that Wall
Street makes every week thanks to employees getting their by subway. And its
the same story in london.

It pales in significance when compared the benefits of enabling
working people to reach decent jobs by safe and affordable means.

September 1, this penny pinching madness will affect the rest of the
UK. Network Rail will no longer be able to borrow against its assets
like a private business. It will be subject to the availability of
funds from HM Treasury. The chancellor will have to balance railway
infrastructure improvements against funds for hospitals and schools.

We have enjoyed a period of continual improvement. Capacity has been
increased with improved junctions and enlarged facilities.

Reading may be the last hurrah. It is back to Penney pinching
decline. Single lead junctions anyone?

--

http://www.991fmtalk.com/ The DMZ in Reno

wrote:
On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 01:14:58 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:35:10 GMT, d wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 18:15:39 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
I am amazed that ordinary punters manage to miss those headlines. I
agree it would not be usual fare for tourists to see that info but
then again I've no idea what rip offs there are with the Navigo
smartcard in Paris or Miki in Melbourne.

Most cities don't have to worry about all this nonsense in the first place.
They charge flat fares - problem solved.

And yes it *could* be done in London - its done in new york and moscow, both
of which are larger systems than the underground.

I deliberately ruled out a flat fare as I knew you'd be along to
propose it. :-)

Naturally Because it makes sense.

The government and Mayor are forcing TfL to make their rail services
all run at an operating profit and make surpluses to fund some of
their investment funding. New York's transit funding is notoriously
bad and unpredictable and looking at their current budget there is a
massive operating loss of nearly $6bn just on the Subway and Staten

You see there you , the usual railway operating at a loss statistic. No one
ever accuses roads of running at a loss - how much money has the M1 made for
itself since it was built? Not a penny. Its the profits made by companies
using the infrastructure that matters, not profits made by the infrastructure
itself. That $6bn pales into insignificance compared to the money that Wall
Street makes every week thanks to employees getting their by subway. And its
the same story in london.

Presumably you're ignoring the taxes and duties made on road vehicle sales,
fuel and ownership, all of which rise with more roads and their usage?
They greatly exceed the cost of building and maintaining roads. Roads make
a clear direct profit for the Treasury and the economy, while railway
investment has to rely on more intangible questions of overall societal
business benefits, which may well be huge, but are hard to measure, let
alone predict. Hence the HS2 debate.

On 25/04/2014 07:12, Hils wrote:
On 2014-04-25 02:22, Aurora wrote:
September 1, this penny pinching madness will affect the rest of the
UK. Network Rail will no longer be able to borrow against its assets
like a private business. It will be subject to the availability of
funds from HM Treasury. The chancellor will have to balance railway
infrastructure improvements against funds for hospitals and schools.

We have enjoyed a period of continual improvement. Capacity has been
increased with improved junctions and enlarged facilities.

Reading may be the last hurrah. It is back to Penney pinching
decline. Single lead junctions anyone?

I wouldn't bank on there being many new hospitals or schools either. The
oligarchs don't want taxpayers money to do anything useful like build
public infrastructure when they can get it into their own pockets directly.

I see comments like this all over the Internet on all kinds of subjects.
When are we going to do something about it?

--
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must
painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman

Hils wrote:
On 2014-04-25 02:22, Aurora wrote:
September 1, this penny pinching madness will affect the rest of the
UK. Network Rail will no longer be able to borrow against its assets
like a private business. It will be subject to the availability of
funds from HM Treasury. The chancellor will have to balance railway
infrastructure improvements against funds for hospitals and schools.

We have enjoyed a period of continual improvement. Capacity has been
increased with improved junctions and enlarged facilities.

Reading may be the last hurrah. It is back to Penney pinching
decline. Single lead junctions anyone?

I wouldn't bank on there being many new hospitals or schools either. The
oligarchs don't want taxpayers money to do anything useful like build
public infrastructure when they can get it into their own pockets directly.

Those mysterious oligarchs are obviously deeply incompetent:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23080327
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-s...wales-26526380
http://www.theconstructionindex.co.u...-hs2-engineers
http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/imperialwest
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news...-queen-4870398
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/wy...-trust-6293381
http://www.papworthhospital.nhs.uk/c...worth_hospital
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-26465478