On Fri, 25 Apr 2014 13:38:19 -0500, wrote:
In article ,
(David Walters) wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:47:36 -0500, wrote:
Not useful, unless you're in the tiny minority that have memorised what
the fares should be and who know what their card balance is at all
times. And you still have to stop and bend down to see what it says
while the person behind is trying to push you through the gate because
they're not expecting you to stop and admire the scenery.

I think you exaggerate somewhat. The gates that tell are easy
enough to with minimal delay. Most in central London don't give out
the information though.

The older pneumatic gates should have a display on exit like the onein
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ter-Reader.jpg

I'm not sure they all have that display next to the touch pad. I think they
didn't use to.

I've not seen an exit gate without one. Too often I find an exit gate
where the display is broken or shows 'CLOSED'. Occasionally I've reported
it to the ticket line staff but they don't seem to care.

wrote in message ...

In article ,
(David Cantrell) wrote:

*Subject:* Oyster: still an unreliable rip-off
*From:* David Cantrell
*Date:* Thu, 24 Apr 2014 12:44:59 +0100

On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 09:46:19AM -0500,
wrote:
In article ,
(David Cantrell) wrote:
Oh, there are lots of other things displayed. But unless I stop
and look
carefully while people queue up behind me, and then pull my phone
out,
navigate to the right page on TfL's website, and carefully
compare the
two - the "information" isn't useful information at all.
It tells you the fare deducted and the new card balance if it's not
one of the old gates.

Not useful, unless you're in the tiny minority that have memorised
what
the fares should be and who know what their card balance is at all
times. And you still have to stop and bend down to see what it says
while the person behind is trying to push you through the gate because
they're not expecting you to stop and admire the scenery.

I think you exaggerate somewhat.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don 't

that's exactly what I have to do to read the display. The character just
aren't big enough

tim

Robin9 wrote:
'Recliner[_2_ Wrote:
wrote:-
On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 01:14:58 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:-
On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:35:10 GMT, d wrote:
-
On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 18:15:39 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
I am amazed that ordinary punters manage to miss those headlines. I
agree it would not be usual fare for tourists to see that info but
then again I've no idea what rip offs there are with the Navigo
smartcard in Paris or Miki in Melbourne.

Most cities don't have to worry about all this nonsense in the first
place.
They charge flat fares - problem solved.

And yes it *could* be done in London - its done in new york and moscow,
both
of which are larger systems than the underground.-

I deliberately ruled out a flat fare as I knew you'd be along to
propose it. :-)-

Naturally Because it makes sense.
-
The government and Mayor are forcing TfL to make their rail services
all run at an operating profit and make surpluses to fund some of
their investment funding. New York's transit funding is notoriously
bad and unpredictable and looking at their current budget there is a
massive operating loss of nearly $6bn just on the Subway and Staten-

You see there you , the usual railway operating at a loss statistic. No
one
ever accuses roads of running at a loss - how much money has the M1
made for
itself since it was built? Not a penny. Its the profits made by
companies
using the infrastructure that matters, not profits made by the
infrastructure
itself. That $6bn pales into insignificance compared to the money that
Wall
Street makes every week thanks to employees getting their by subway.
And its
the same story in london.-

Presumably you're ignoring the taxes and duties made on road vehicle
sales,
fuel and ownership, all of which rise with more roads and their usage?
They greatly exceed the cost of building and maintaining roads. Roads
make
a clear direct profit for the Treasury and the economy, while railway
investment has to rely on more intangible questions of overall societal
business benefits, which may well be huge, but are hard to measure, let
alone predict. Hence the HS2 debate.

Is VAT still charged on motor insurance policies? A very nice earner for
The Treasury.

No, VAT has never been charged on insurance policies. But IPT of 6%
applies.

In article , (Peter Smyth) wrote:

wrote:

You'd need to spend long enough in Victoria to exceed the OSI limit
for it to be treated as two journeys.

Look back up the thread:

Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because
of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

The allowed time for the LU - NR OSI at Victoria is 40 minutes. If the
gap between the LU touch-out and the NR touch-in is longer than this,
it will be charged as two separate journeys. In most cases this will
cost more, but in some circumstances can be beneficial.

If it is beneficial, like the second leg being out of peak hours as here,
why isn't it charged that way? Most unfair.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:
In article , (Peter Smyth) wrote:

wrote:

You'd need to spend long enough in Victoria to exceed the OSI limit
for it to be treated as two journeys.

Look back up the thread:

Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because
of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

The allowed time for the LU - NR OSI at Victoria is 40 minutes. If the
gap between the LU touch-out and the NR touch-in is longer than this,
it will be charged as two separate journeys. In most cases this will
cost more, but in some circumstances can be beneficial.

If it is beneficial, like the second leg being out of peak hours as here,
why isn't it charged that way? Most unfair.

The current Oyster rules are relatively simple and deterministic -- it
doesn't look at all the possible ways of charging for a complex journey and
then choose the cheapest one. It just has a simple algorithm to determine
whether multiple journeys should be combined, and then charges for the
compound journey once it concludes. It doesn't go back and calculate if
other combinations would have been cheaper.

On 25/04/2014 20:32, d wrote:
On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 18:22:44 -0700
Aurora wrote:
On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 18:47:07 GMT, d wrote:
The government and Mayor are forcing TfL to make their rail services
all run at an operating profit and make surpluses to fund some of
their investment funding. New York's transit funding is notoriously
bad and unpredictable and looking at their current budget there is a
massive operating loss of nearly $6bn just on the Subway and Staten

This time Boltar, I am absolutely with you. Much as I would like to

Boltar? Never heard of him. Sounds like the sort of name someone who was
usually right would have though...

September 1, this penny pinching madness will affect the rest of the
UK. Network Rail will no longer be able to borrow against its assets
like a private business. It will be subject to the availability of
funds from HM Treasury. The chancellor will have to balance railway
infrastructure improvements against funds for hospitals and schools.

Nothing the treasury does surprised me. Bunch of washed up idiots with no
clue about basic economics its seems to me. Any idiot can cut everything
tory style of empty the piggy bank labour style, it takes someone smart to
figure out a 3rd option.

--
Spud


It is not widely known that, while the rest of the Civil Service is
headed by people from many universities, the Treasury is almost wholly
Oxbridge.

--
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must
painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman

In message , at 17:38:19
on Fri, 25 Apr 2014, remarked:
Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because
of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

The allowed time for the LU - NR OSI at Victoria is 40 minutes. If the
gap between the LU touch-out and the NR touch-in is longer than this,
it will be charged as two separate journeys. In most cases this will
cost more, but in some circumstances can be beneficial.

If it is beneficial, like the second leg being out of peak hours as here,
why isn't it charged that way? Most unfair.

Surely this is simply a variation on the theme of "splitting tickets",
which National Rail ticket offices fail to do if you buy for a journey
starting in the morning peak but ending off-peak.

For example, Nottingham-Manchester:

NOT Depart 08.47 £53.50 Anytime Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

NOT Depart 08.47 £23.00 Anytime Return
SHF Arrive 09.37
SHF Depart 09.41 £18.30 Off Peak Day Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

Saving £12.20; you'd have to travel an hour later to get the "through"
off-peak ticket, albeit that saves even more (being priced at just
£29.70).

What's more worrying is that if there's ever a National PAYG scheme,
whether by paywave or ITSO, then it'll undoubtedly fail to volunteer to
save the traveller that £12.20 - unless perhaps they manage to dash out
of the barriers and back in the four minutes available.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 08:07:43 on Sat, 26 Apr
2014, Roland Perry remarked:
In message , at 17:38:19
on Fri, 25 Apr 2014, remarked:
Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because
of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

The allowed time for the LU - NR OSI at Victoria is 40 minutes. If the
gap between the LU touch-out and the NR touch-in is longer than this,
it will be charged as two separate journeys. In most cases this will
cost more, but in some circumstances can be beneficial.

If it is beneficial, like the second leg being out of peak hours as here,
why isn't it charged that way? Most unfair.

Surely this is simply a variation on the theme of "splitting tickets",
which National Rail ticket offices fail to do if you buy for a journey
starting in the morning peak but ending off-peak.

For example, Nottingham-Manchester:

NOT Depart 08.47 £53.50 Anytime Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

NOT Depart 08.47 £23.00 Anytime Return
SHF Arrive 09.37
SHF Depart 09.41 £18.30 Off Peak Day Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

Saving £12.20;

Thinking about this some more, if you split tickets at Alfreton (on that
same train) you'll save £18.40

you'd have to travel an hour later to get the "through" off-peak
ticket, albeit that saves even more (being priced at just £29.70).

What's more worrying is that if there's ever a National PAYG scheme,
whether by paywave or ITSO, then it'll undoubtedly fail to volunteer to
save the traveller that £12.20 - unless perhaps they manage to dash out
of the barriers and back in the four minutes available.

--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

Surely this is simply a variation on the theme of "splitting
tickets", which National Rail ticket offices fail to do if you buy
for a journey starting in the morning peak but ending off-peak.

For example, Nottingham-Manchester:

NOT Depart 08.47 £53.50 Anytime Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

NOT Depart 08.47 £23.00 Anytime Return
SHF Arrive 09.37
SHF Depart 09.41 £18.30 Off Peak Day Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

Saving £12.20; you'd have to travel an hour later to get the
"through" off-peak ticket, albeit that saves even more (being priced
at just £29.70).

What's more worrying is that if there's ever a National PAYG scheme,
whether by paywave or ITSO, then it'll undoubtedly fail to volunteer
to save the traveller that £12.20 - unless perhaps they manage to
dash out of the barriers and back in the four minutes available.

Surely it's time that train operators were required to offer passengers the
cheapest fares, allowing for options like this and have done with it? Why
should only those good at gaming the system benefit? It's overcharging by
stealth which shouldn't be allowed.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 05:37:22
on Sat, 26 Apr 2014, remarked:
Surely this is simply a variation on the theme of "splitting
tickets", which National Rail ticket offices fail to do if you buy
for a journey starting in the morning peak but ending off-peak.

For example, Nottingham-Manchester:

NOT Depart 08.47 £53.50 Anytime Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

NOT Depart 08.47 £23.00 Anytime Return
SHF Arrive 09.37
SHF Depart 09.41 £18.30 Off Peak Day Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

Saving £12.20; you'd have to travel an hour later to get the
"through" off-peak ticket, albeit that saves even more (being priced
at just £29.70).

What's more worrying is that if there's ever a National PAYG scheme,
whether by paywave or ITSO, then it'll undoubtedly fail to volunteer
to save the traveller that £12.20 - unless perhaps they manage to
dash out of the barriers and back in the four minutes available.

Surely it's time that train operators were required to offer passengers the
cheapest fares, allowing for options like this and have done with it?

They prefer to sell end-to-end tickets, and have all sorts of excuses
why splitting tickets is a bad idea. Near London, the rule of "train
arrives London after 10am [or whatever]" does level the playing field
for everyone en-route. But in the rest of the country people have a
"train departs this station after 9am [or whatever]" rule, which is at
least simpler to describe even if it provides opportunities for splits.

Why should only those good at gaming the system benefit? It's
overcharging by stealth which shouldn't be allowed.

Ultimately, I suppose, there would need to be a system which made the
"polluter pay" according to the congestion on each individual station
pair. But that would probably introduce anomalies depending on whether
your train was fast or semi-fast. ie the fast train would have to be
high-price all the way, whereas a semi-fast might change to a lower
pricing band halfway home when the first tranche of passengers had
already got off.
--
Roland Perry