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Fatality at Balham?
Matt Ashby wrote:
Male person, scene treated as a crime scene by BTP and body not recovered until 1300 approx. The lack of a contingency plan by SCT for the main lines being closed during the peaks meant services ran up to 180 mins late! Which once again highlights how bloody disgraceful it is that nowadays the police are permitted to cause disruption on such a scale to the general public. Perhaps they should be forced to compensate all of those caught up in their incompetence (as everyone else seems to be expected to these days) - that might focus their minds to get the job done more quickly. Bearing in mind that this incident allegedly occurred at around 01:00 the railway should have been cleared and open for operation by 05:00 at the latest. Which would give people wanting to kill people / dispose of bodies a very good reason to do so on the railways. "Oh, it'll be OK - the police only have 4 hours to investigate this scene and pick up all the forensics, so they'll never connect it to us". You've forgotten one crucial factor: CCTV! Surely when investigating a crime, the police should be given all the time that they need. Yes, but examining a scene as uncluttered as a train station shouldn't take more than an hour. What extra evidence do you think could be gained by keeping the station closed all morning? |
Fatality at Balham?
David Hansen wrote in message . ..
On 9 Feb 2004 01:57:26 -0800 someone who may be (Ian Johnston) wrote this:- Or points to it happening at one o'clock in the morning in the middle of winter, and them needing a few hours of daylight to do a proper search of the area? The steel wheels on steel rails do not really pick up evidence and distribute it further down the track. If necessary fit some sheets of plastic under the rails and let the trains pass. Easy peasy, even with conductor rails. With all due respect, that's just plain silly. Are you seriously suggesting that trains could run through a murder investigation scene, at speed (hint: aerodynamics) for a few hours (or until a quiet time the next weekend?) without hindering the investigation in any way? Ian |
Fatality at Balham?
Roland Perry wrote in message ...
In message , Ian Johnston writes Or points to it happening at one o'clock in the morning in the middle of winter, and them needing a few hours of daylight to do a proper search of the area? Or that the "resource" they are missing is floodlighting? A very, very, very, very poor substitute for sunlight. Remember that they are looking for tiny things, and although floodlights may look bright they are either very directional - so things get hidden in shadows - or much dimmer. Ian |
Fatality at Balham?
In message
David Hansen wrote: On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:45:14 +0000 someone who may be Graeme Wall wrote this:- They don't need, but certainly get, plenty of cretins complaining because theor oh-so-important journey has been delayed 5 minutes. Nice try. Shock horror! I got a 'Nice try' out of Mr Hansen. However, the delays mentioned din this thread are rather more than five minutes. Exageration for effect old thing. -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
Fatality at Balham?
In message
David Hansen wrote: On 9 Feb 2004 01:49:51 -0800 someone who may be (Ian Johnston) wrote this:- If there is a suspicion of murder, it's now worth looking for very, very much smaller pieces of evidence than ten or even five years ago. And that takes longer. Despite such "fingertip search" activities by the police it remains a fact that they and the "experts" advising them did not recognise the AWS receiver or the ATP master byte card of the train that crashed at Southall. Had it not been for railway staff Inspector Clouseau and their colleagues would have lost these items. Nice try!!!! But what has that got to do with a murder investigation? -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
Fatality at Balham?
In message
David Hansen wrote: On 9 Feb 2004 01:54:48 -0800 someone who may be (Ian Johnston) wrote this:- [snip] Bear in mind as well that roads are hard to damage and can quickly be patched up if they are damaged. Neither is true of railway lines, Debatable. Debatable? particularly where pointwork Hence the substitution of plain line. However, if components are available, such as suitable switches, then it does not take that long to install switch and crossing work. That's a bloody big if. I've not noticed spare turnouts lying about the network just in case. or overhead are concerened. Overhead is quick and easy to install, even if masts have been destroyed. One may need a speed restriction for a few days until a proper repair is made, but that is a process that is easy enough to manage. So you admit the delays of days are not that unreasonable? -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
Fatality at Balham?
In message , Ian
Johnston writes Or that the "resource" they are missing is floodlighting? A very, very, very, very poor substitute for sunlight. What to the police do north of the Arctic Circle? Hibernate? -- Roland Perry |
Fatality at Balham?
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Fatality at Balham?
In message , Roland Perry
writes In message , Ian Johnston writes Or that the "resource" they are missing is floodlighting? A very, very, very, very poor substitute for sunlight. What to the police do north of the Arctic Circle? Hibernate? Surely everyone hibernates (or gets roaring drunk) up there in winter? -- Five Cats Email to: cats_spam at uk2 dot net |
Fatality at Balham?
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004, Graeme Wall wrote:
Shock horror! I got a 'Nice try' out of Mr Hansen. Fair do's - you paid one back directly! |
Fatality at Balham?
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 19:36:50 +0000 someone who may be Graeme Wall
wrote this:- That's a bloody big if. I've not noticed spare turnouts lying about the network just in case. From memory of an article in one of the house journals there are/were two suppliers of such equipment in the UK. If one wanders around their yard one might be lucky and find a suitable bit. It may need a bit of adjustment, which will take a day or so. If one is unlucky there will be nothing suitable and it will take a fair time to make. However, that is where substituting plain line is the thing to do temporarily. Overhead is quick and easy to install, even if masts have been destroyed. One may need a speed restriction for a few days until a proper repair is made, but that is a process that is easy enough to manage. So you admit the delays of days are not that unreasonable? Nice try, but that distortion is not what I said. The speed restriction does cause a short delay to trains, but the line is open and services are running. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000. |
Fatality at Balham?
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:04:26 +0000 someone who may be Roland Perry
wrote this:- What to the police do north of the Arctic Circle? Hibernate? They are not in the UK and so have a more sensible attitude. Even somewhat south of the Arctic Circle there is little daylight in winter. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000. |
Fatality at Balham?
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 19:33:46 +0000 someone who may be Graeme Wall
wrote this:- But what has that got to do with a murder investigation? You told us about small pieces of evidence. I simply pointed out large pieces of evidence which the police missed. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000. |
Fatality at Balham?
In message
Roland Perry wrote: In message , Ian Johnston writes Or that the "resource" they are missing is floodlighting? A very, very, very, very poor substitute for sunlight. What to the police do north of the Arctic Circle? Hibernate? How many busy commuter lines are there north of the Arctic Circle? -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
Fatality at Balham?
In message , David Hansen
writes On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:04:26 +0000 someone who may be Roland Perry wrote this:- What to the police do north of the Arctic Circle? Hibernate? They are not in the UK and so have a more sensible attitude. Even somewhat south of the Arctic Circle there is little daylight in winter. Like in Wick. -- Five Cats Email to: cats_spam at uk2 dot net |
Fatality at Balham?
Roland Perry wrote in message ...
In message , Ian Johnston writes Or that the "resource" they are missing is floodlighting? A very, very, very, very poor substitute for sunlight. What to the police do north of the Arctic Circle? Hibernate? Make the best of a bad job? Seems to me that there is a weeny difference between waiting a few hours for enough daylight to do a good job and waiting several weeks or months. if you came home at midnight and saw water coming froma blocked gutter, would you immediately shin up a ladder - ather than wit till the morning - because that's how they do things in Reykjavik? Ian |
Fatality at Balham?
In message , Ian
Johnston writes if you came home at midnight and saw water coming froma blocked gutter, would you immediately shin up a ladder - ather than wit till the morning - because that's how they do things in Reykjavik? I've been called out at 2am to inspect leaking gutters at the workplace I was responsible for; if that helps. -- Roland Perry |
Fatality at Balham?
In message
David Hansen wrote: On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 19:33:46 +0000 someone who may be Graeme Wall wrote this:- But what has that got to do with a murder investigation? You told us about small pieces of evidence. I simply pointed out large pieces of evidence which the police missed. But what has that got to do with a murder investigation? -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
Fatality at Balham?
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Fatality at Balham?
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:09:21 +0000 someone who may be Roland Perry
wrote this:- In the case of the trains, what is missing is the "restoring normal operation" aspect. I think the problem is that the trains are not considered important by the police. The utterances of our unlearned friend Mr Hidden don't help. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000. |
Fatality at Balham?
Roland Perry wrote in message ...
In message , Ian Johnston writes if you came home at midnight and saw water coming froma blocked gutter, would you immediately shin up a ladder - ather than wit till the morning - because that's how they do things in Reykjavik? I've been called out at 2am to inspect leaking gutters at the workplace I was responsible for; if that helps. And you repaired them there and then, did you, leaving no part of the job until the morning? Ian |
Fatality at Balham?
David Hansen wrote in message . ..
On 9 Feb 2004 11:18:27 -0800 someone who may be (Ian Johnston) wrote this:- The steel wheels on steel rails do not really pick up evidence and distribute it further down the track. If necessary fit some sheets of plastic under the rails and let the trains pass. Easy peasy, even with conductor rails. With all due respect, that's just plain silly. You fail to explain why? No, I think you covered that ... Are you seriously suggesting that trains could run through a murder investigation scene, at speed Possible murder scene. Oh, that's OK then. It might not have been a murder, so let's just disturb evidence and wait for a few days (till Sunday afternoon) to have a shufti. I didn't mention the trains running at speed. Doing so would rip the plastic. Oh yes. The plastic. I like the plastic. You're going to cover a couple of hundred yards of track with plastic in such a way that the rails are fully exposed but everything else is hidden. And as you do this you can ensure than no evidence is going to be disturbed in any way. What's the plan - hoik the track up with a crane and lay it down on a hell of a lot of cling film? without hindering the investigation in any way? I don't think it would hinder the investigation in any way. Absolutely. Not at all. That's why the police almost always wrap crime scenes in plastic for a few days before doing any investigation. When the police have extracted themselves from the chip shop and are ready to make a start then they could be allowed to do their work, outside the peak periods. Go on. Tell us about the obviously traumatic encounter you've had with the rozzers. Let it out. Ian |
Fatality at Balham?
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Fatality at Balham?
In message , Ian
Johnston writes I've been called out at 2am to inspect leaking gutters at the workplace I was responsible for; if that helps. And you repaired them there and then, did you, leaving no part of the job until the morning? We did what was necessary to keep the (24x7) workplace running normally until further notice - the other option being to abandon ship. And then fixed it properly later. In the case of the trains, what is missing is the "restoring normal operation" aspect. -- Roland Perry |
Fatality at Balham?
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:08:25 UTC, David Hansen
wrote: : On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:09:21 +0000 someone who may be Roland Perry : wrote this:- : : In the case of the trains, what is missing is : the "restoring normal operation" aspect. : : I think the problem is that the trains are not considered important : by the police. The utterances of our unlearned friend Mr Hidden : don't help. If a body was found in suspicious circumstances at 1am on the M8, do you think the police would cover stuff up with plastic and wait until after the morning rush hour to look for evidence? Ian |
Fatality at Balham?
"Ian Johnston" wrote in message news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-15gYwGsdV2Bd@localhost... If a body was found in suspicious circumstances at 1am on the M8, do you think the police would cover stuff up with plastic and wait until after the morning rush hour to look for evidence? Not a particularly good example. There are numerous examples of fatal crashes in which the evidence is dragged off the road within hours - basically as soon as the ambulances are gone. 'Getting the traffic flowing' is seen as a priority on the roads - even where some effort at investigation is made, often one or two lanes will be open. There doesn't seem much concern for disturbing potential evidence there. Richard |
Fatality at Balham?
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:46:11 UTC, "Richard"
wrote: : : "Ian Johnston" wrote in message : news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-15gYwGsdV2Bd@localhost... : If a body was found in suspicious circumstances at 1am on the M8, do : you think the police would cover stuff up with plastic and wait until : after the morning rush hour to look for evidence? : : Not a particularly good example. There are numerous examples of fatal : crashes in which the evidence is dragged off the road within hours - : basically as soon as the ambulances are gone. Bad comparison: 1) This ain't a mere fatal crash. There is a suspicion that the victim was murdered. Done away with. Killed. So they don't just bag him and have a quick shufti for tyre marks. They look for clues, and bloodstains and all that other deerstalker hat and magnifying glass stuff. 2) Remember, the body was found at 1am. : 'Getting the traffic flowing' is seen as a priority on the roads - even : where some effort at investigation is made, often one or two lanes will be : open. There doesn't seem much concern for disturbing potential evidence : there. I see that a main road in Birmingham was entirely closed for the morning rush hour a couple of days ago after a child was killed by a police car. Ian |
Fatality at Balham?
: Not a particularly good example. There are numerous examples of fatal
: crashes in which the evidence is dragged off the road within hours - : basically as soon as the ambulances are gone. Bad comparison: 1) This ain't a mere fatal crash. There is a suspicion that the victim Fatal crashes are often killings caused by someone's crime. Why should they be dealt with less seriously than murders? I see that a main road in Birmingham was entirely closed for the morning rush hour a couple of days ago after a child was killed by a police car. We have had 5 children killed in my (small) town in the past year - 4 pedestrians, one cyclist - all but one killed by illegal actions by a driver (cyclist driven into, 3 children killed in separate incidents by drivers failing to give way when turning). Speed implicated in all 5 cases. No prosecutions and no serious investigation - roads quickly reopened. It's a scandal that is being ignored. One suspects the only reason your case was properly investigated was because the PCA would be involved. Richard |
Fatality at Balham?
On 12 Feb 2004 09:00:57 GMT someone who may be "Ian Johnston"
wrote this:- If a body was found in suspicious circumstances at 1am on the M8, do you think the police would cover stuff up with plastic and wait until after the morning rush hour to look for evidence? You fail to spot the fundamental difference. If one was to build a bridge over the surface of the M8 that motor vehicles could use then one would have a comparable situation. The height of this bridge above the road surface being the same as the difference in level between the ballast and rail head. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000. |
Fatality at Balham?
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:12:21 UTC, "Richard"
wrote: : Bad comparison: : : 1) This ain't a mere fatal crash. There is a suspicion that the victim : : Fatal crashes are often killings caused by someone's crime. Why should they : be dealt with less seriously than murders? They can be dealt with more quickly, because the cause of death is easy to spot and the culprit is normally on the scene. If a murder victim was found dumped on a road at 1am I'd be very, very suprised if the police actions was any different. Close the road, wait till morning, have a good look round. Ian |
Fatality at Balham?
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:33:14 UTC, David Hansen
wrote: : You fail to spot the fundamental difference. If one was to build a : bridge over the surface of the M8 that motor vehicles could use then : one would have a comparable situation. The height of this bridge : above the road surface being the same as the difference in level : between the ballast and rail head. Oh, we're back to the wonderful Crime-Prufe (tm) cling film, are we? Ian |
Fatality at Balham?
"David H Wild" wrote in message ... Not a particularly good example. There are numerous examples of fatal crashes in which the evidence is dragged off the road within hours - basically as soon as the ambulances are gone. A fatal crash is not necessarily the same as suspicious circumstances. Seems pretty suspicious to me - someone dead where if the law is followed the chance of being killed should be very low. Why do you want to treat these killings as unworthy of investigation? Richard |
Fatality at Balham?
On 12 Feb 2004 22:52:59 GMT someone who may be "Ian Johnston"
wrote this:- Oh, we're back to the wonderful Crime-Prufe (tm) cling film, are we? Nice try. However, nowhere did I mention cling film. It is reassuring that you have to distort what I wrote in order to make your "point". That probably indicates a lack of good arguments. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000. |
Fatality at Balham?
In message
"Richard" wrote: "Ian Johnston" wrote in message news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-15gYwGsdV2Bd@localhost... If a body was found in suspicious circumstances at 1am on the M8, do you think the police would cover stuff up with plastic and wait until after the morning rush hour to look for evidence? Not a particularly good example. There are numerous examples of fatal crashes in which the evidence is dragged off the road within hours - basically as soon as the ambulances are gone. But we are not talking about the victims of accidents but a potential murder victim. 'Getting the traffic flowing' is seen as a priority on the roads - even where some effort at investigation is made, often one or two lanes will be open. There doesn't seem much concern for disturbing potential evidence there. But we are not talking about the victims of accidents but a potential murder victim. -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
Fatality at Balham?
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:10:15 UTC, David Hansen
wrote: : On 12 Feb 2004 22:52:59 GMT someone who may be "Ian Johnston" : wrote this:- : : Oh, we're back to the wonderful Crime-Prufe (tm) cling film, are we? : : Nice try. However, nowhere did I mention cling film. : : It is reassuring that you have to distort what I wrote in order to : make your "point". That probably indicates a lack of good arguments. Well, do tell about this wonderful plastic which can easy be spread over thousands of square yards of railway without disturbing anything underneath, but letting the rail heads through. I really think you're onto a loser with this one. Ian |
Fatality at Balham?
On 13 Feb 2004 11:04:39 GMT someone who may be "Ian Johnston"
wrote this:- Well, do tell about this wonderful plastic which can easy be spread over thousands of square yards of railway Who said anything about thousands of square yards? I really think you're onto a loser with this one. I may be, but that has yet to be demonstrated by those that disagree with me. Since they seem to need to distort what I say to make their "points" I think the idea is looking increasingly sound. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000. |
Fatality at Balham?
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:24:11 UTC, David Hansen
wrote: : On 13 Feb 2004 11:04:39 GMT someone who may be "Ian Johnston" : wrote this:- : : Well, do tell about this wonderful plastic which can easy be spread : over thousands of square yards of railway : : Who said anything about thousands of square yards? Wel, explain in more detail, then. You're the one who came up with this theory that it would be perfectly possible - and desirable - to swathe the scene of a crime in plastic (allowing rails to poke through, of course) without in any way detracting from the process of investigation once it started. I'd have thought that a hundred yards on each side of the body, across the full width of the railway line, would be a basic minimum. But perhaps you know better - can you give some examples of places where this is or has been done? : I really think you're onto a loser with this one. : : I may be, but that has yet to be demonstrated by those that disagree : with me. Since they seem to need to distort what I say to make their : "points" I think the idea is looking increasingly sound. Problem is that you haven't really said much more than "use some plastic", so there isn't much to argue with. Have you suggested your plan to the HSE or the BTP? Ian |
Fatality at Balham?
In article ,
Richard wrote: A fatal crash is not necessarily the same as suspicious circumstances. Seems pretty suspicious to me - someone dead where if the law is followed the chance of being killed should be very low. Why do you want to treat these killings as unworthy of investigation? Nobody, other than you, is suggesting that fatal accidents should not be investigated. They are, though, much easier to investigate in that the people concerned are usually still at the scene. Finding a body by the side of the road, when there has not been a road accident, is a rather different matter. -- __ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________ |__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | / Acorn StrongArm Risc_PC | || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines ___________________________/ |
Fatality at Balham?
In article cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-l4U5vcb61hzI@localhost,
Ian Johnston wrote: : It is reassuring that you have to distort what I wrote in order to : make your "point". That probably indicates a lack of good arguments. Well, do tell about this wonderful plastic which can easy be spread over thousands of square yards of railway without disturbing anything underneath, but letting the rail heads through. I really think you're onto a loser with this one. Rule 1: David Hansen is always right. Rule 2: Rule 1 applies. -- __ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________ |__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | / Acorn StrongArm Risc_PC | || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines ___________________________/ |
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