TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

wrote in message ...
On 26/06/2014 22:47, tim..... wrote:


wrote in message
...
On 26/06/2014 00:55, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 23:00:36 +0100, "
wrote:

What are the plans for expanding contactless into other cities or
further afield on NR?

I think the Rail Delivery Group are considering the technology but
beyond that I don't know. I am not aware that any of the city regions
are considering contactless bank cards - they're all struggling to get
ITSO based schemes into service.

The only other scheme was First Group's move into smartcards for its
buses - that scheme was based on bank card acceptance first plus ITSO
for concessionary tickets. However progress has been very slow and I
don't know if they even have a trial area operating.

What is odd is that the technology should be very straightforward
given there are known standards and a competitive supplier base. There
must be horrendous issues with company processes, security and
deployment issues given how incredibly slow the progress is with so
many schemes - even when only in one company. Multi operator schemes
in deregulated areas will always be hard as no one can force the bus
companies to take part and there's always the issue of "who pays?".


Isn't that a bit of a waste of time and resources to work on
introducing ITSO, when eventually everybody will go over to contactless?

the comment from others suggest that that wont be happening, any time
soon

tim


It will eventually, however.

wanna bet :-)

tim

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

On 26/06/2014 23:16, tim..... wrote:


wrote in message ...
On 26/06/2014 22:47, tim..... wrote:


wrote in message
...
On 26/06/2014 00:55, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 23:00:36 +0100, "
wrote:

What are the plans for expanding contactless into other cities or
further afield on NR?

I think the Rail Delivery Group are considering the technology but
beyond that I don't know. I am not aware that any of the city regions
are considering contactless bank cards - they're all struggling to get
ITSO based schemes into service.

The only other scheme was First Group's move into smartcards for its
buses - that scheme was based on bank card acceptance first plus ITSO
for concessionary tickets. However progress has been very slow and I
don't know if they even have a trial area operating.

What is odd is that the technology should be very straightforward
given there are known standards and a competitive supplier base. There
must be horrendous issues with company processes, security and
deployment issues given how incredibly slow the progress is with so
many schemes - even when only in one company. Multi operator schemes
in deregulated areas will always be hard as no one can force the bus
companies to take part and there's always the issue of "who pays?".


Isn't that a bit of a waste of time and resources to work on
introducing ITSO, when eventually everybody will go over to
contactless?

the comment from others suggest that that wont be happening, any time
soon

tim


It will eventually, however.

wanna bet :-)

tim


I'd have that that they would have gone for this in the Nordic states as
well as in Japan.

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:56:17 +0200, "tim....."
wrote:
what with one of those "press the lever n time to release the
correct number
of coins", coin holders?

When did you last see one of those?

Neil

--
Neil Williams. Use neil before the at to reply.

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In message , at 22:15:28 on Thu, 26 Jun
2014, " remarked:
What are the plans for expanding contactless into other cities or
further afield on NR?

I think the Rail Delivery Group are considering the technology but
beyond that I don't know. I am not aware that any of the city regions
are considering contactless bank cards - they're all struggling to get
ITSO based schemes into service.
....
Isn't that a bit of a waste of time and resources to work on
introducing ITSO, when eventually everybody will go over to contactless?

ITSO is much simpler than contactless, especially because it stores
products on the card rather than in a collection of databases.

Therefore a season ticket on ITSO will work the barriers where-ever it's
valid, without the need to be sending data off to the central computers
every time it's touched.

Far better for the customer too if an off-route touch refuses entry,
than produces an unexpected and potentially punitive day-ticket for that
trip, once the sums have been done a day later.
--
Roland Perry

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

On 26/06/2014 22:15, wrote:
On 26/06/2014 00:55, Paul Corfield wrote:
[snip]


Isn't that a bit of a waste of time and resources to work on introducing
ITSO, when eventually everybody will go over to contactless?

Not really - they serve different purposes.
The Contactless Payment Cards (aka cEMV), and the undelying "Transit
Model" that the banks and credit card companies have developed, have
limits on the value of an individual journey, and on the total amount
that can be accumlated before (a) payment is collected, and (b) online
validation (CHip'n'PIN) is required at a reader.
So while cEMV will work well for daily travel around a town or city, it
won't work for inter-urban travel where a ticket might cost £50+.

But then the same applies to any ePurse-based system. With something
like Oyster, a 'max fare' is deducted on entry, and a refund applied
when you tap out on exit. This max fare affects the minimum balance you
need on the card.
Now apply that to travel from Penzance to Wick. Would you want to have
that much credit on your card/account if all YOU wanted to do was
travel around London?

The issue is that there are many different travel patterns, and there
isn't a one size fits all smart ticketing product. We will need
different products on smartcard / mobile phones / whatever to allow
anybody to do whatever journey they wish.

Just my 0.02GBP

Kevin

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In message , at 09:46:36 on Fri, 27 Jun
2014, Kevin Ayton remarked:
The issue is that there are many different travel patterns, and there
isn't a one size fits all smart ticketing product. We will need
different products on smartcard / mobile phones / whatever to allow
anybody to do whatever journey they wish.

There's also a big difference for what's travel in essentially a zonal
system, compared to point-to-point. Even then the Oyster system can't
quite cope and has a complex system of en-route validators (which even
people here have problems understanding) to say things like "I didn't go
via Z1, honest guv".

Contactless would also only work for "single" fares (the complications
arising from things like period returns and which particular return half
you were 'using' a week later are simply enormous). And that means a
complete re-think of the National Rail fares system, and the concepts we
have today where singles are rarely half the price of a return [often
only 10p less].

Then there's the revenue lost because people could make a trip
comprising an Anytime fare in the morning and off-peak return, whereas
today they are often forced to 'waste' the Anytime return half ticket on
an off-peak home leg.
--
Roland Perry

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 22:15:28 +0100, "
wrote:


Their main experience of CBCs will, of course, be when TfL launches
their facility that will cover the zonal area. It will be interesting
to see what happens to the relative balance of ticket products and
sales. The London TOCs that were so resistant to Oyster were
perfectly delighted to see their ridership and revenue soar once it
was extended to their services.

Did that really happen? I find it hard to believe that a near doubling of
fares (introduction of Oyster Zonal pricing has removed the 49% day return
discount, without making the one way journey any cheaper) resulted in
increased ridership

tim

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

wrote in message ...
On 26/06/2014 23:16, tim..... wrote:


wrote in message
...
On 26/06/2014 22:47, tim..... wrote:


wrote in message
...
On 26/06/2014 00:55, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 23:00:36 +0100, "
wrote:

What are the plans for expanding contactless into other cities or
further afield on NR?

I think the Rail Delivery Group are considering the technology but
beyond that I don't know. I am not aware that any of the city regions
are considering contactless bank cards - they're all struggling to
get
ITSO based schemes into service.

The only other scheme was First Group's move into smartcards for its
buses - that scheme was based on bank card acceptance first plus ITSO
for concessionary tickets. However progress has been very slow and I
don't know if they even have a trial area operating.

What is odd is that the technology should be very straightforward
given there are known standards and a competitive supplier base.
There
must be horrendous issues with company processes, security and
deployment issues given how incredibly slow the progress is with so
many schemes - even when only in one company. Multi operator schemes
in deregulated areas will always be hard as no one can force the bus
companies to take part and there's always the issue of "who pays?".


Isn't that a bit of a waste of time and resources to work on
introducing ITSO, when eventually everybody will go over to
contactless?

the comment from others suggest that that wont be happening, any time
soon

tim


It will eventually, however.

wanna bet :-)

tim


I'd have that that they would have gone for this in the Nordic states as
well as in Japan.

Well it just happens that my only other experience of contactless cards is
in Skane (Southern Sweden) where they are currently contracting Cubic to
give them an Oyster-like system.

But whilst they are using the same contactless technology to pay for travel,
they haven't done away with "tickets".

For anything more complicated than a bus journey (single or multi step) you
have to specify (to a human or a machine)what zone you are destined for and
will receive a paper ticket to show that. You then need this paper ticket
in case you are checked on your journey.

So I don't hold the same expectation as you that they will take this next
step to contactless any time soon, as they haven't even taken the step to
ticketless

tim

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
. net...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:56:17 +0200, "tim....."
wrote:
what with one of those "press the lever n time to release the
correct number
of coins", coin holders?

When did you last see one of those?

2 days ago

tim

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 22:15:28 +0100, "
wrote:


Their main experience of CBCs will, of course, be when TfL launches
their facility that will cover the zonal area. It will be
interesting
to see what happens to the relative balance of ticket products and
sales. The London TOCs that were so resistant to Oyster were
perfectly delighted to see their ridership and revenue soar once it
was extended to their services.

Did that really happen? I find it hard to believe that a near
doubling of fares (introduction of Oyster Zonal pricing has removed
the 49% day return discount, without making the one way journey any
cheaper) resulted in increased ridership

Not exactly. It halved the Vauxhall-Putney single fare for me. I was told
this was to stop day returns going up too much.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 11:44:18 +0200, "tim....."
wrote:
2 days ago

I've not seen it in years in the UK.

Neil

--
Neil Williams. Use neil before the at to reply.

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 22:15:28 +0100, "
wrote:


Their main experience of CBCs will, of course, be when TfL launches
their facility that will cover the zonal area. It will be
interesting
to see what happens to the relative balance of ticket products and
sales. The London TOCs that were so resistant to Oyster were
perfectly delighted to see their ridership and revenue soar once it
was extended to their services.

Did that really happen? I find it hard to believe that a near
doubling of fares (introduction of Oyster Zonal pricing has removed
the 49% day return discount, without making the one way journey any
cheaper) resulted in increased ridership

Not exactly. It halved the Vauxhall-Putney single fare for me. I was told
this was to stop day returns going up too much.

Really!

It's difficult to check on the previous fares but you can do some
comparisons with the current fares from outside the boundaries

Fare from Ashford (Middx/Surrey depending upon day of the week) to London -
outside of Oyster: DR 9.90

Fare from Felltham, inside Oyster, based on Zonal one way fares DR 13.30

How can that be of the benefit to the travelling public?

tim

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

It looks like National Express Essex Thameside plan to roll out CPC ticketing across their network

http://nationalexpressgroup.com/medi...?newsitem=1355

"Smart ticketing across the route from day one, with route-wide contactless payment rolled out in 2017."

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In message , at
06:26:30 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
It looks like National Express Essex Thameside plan to roll out CPC ticketing across their network

http://nationalexpressgroup.com/medi...?newsitem=1355

"Smart ticketing across the route from day one, with route-wide contactless payment rolled out in 2017."

They are the DfT's chosen pilot for ITSO, so I expect the contactless
payment will be from your ITSO wallet, not your credit card.

ie CPC= Contactless Payment Card, not Contactless Credit Card

It barely qualifies for the term "network" though, having just one
point-to-point line with a loop via Greys. Which also explains why they
have good performance figures. No pesky late-running cross-country
trains from Bristol to Edinburgh competing for their assets.

ps: "Passengers given a new right to be sold the cheapest ticket for any
c2c journey and compensation if they are not."

Isn't this the case already?? Or is it in fact a right to be sold the
cheapest ticket, but no redress if you aren't.

--
Roland Perry

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 22:15:28 +0100, "
wrote:

Their main experience of CBCs will, of course, be when TfL launches
their facility that will cover the zonal area. It will be
interesting
to see what happens to the relative balance of ticket products and
sales. The London TOCs that were so resistant to Oyster were
perfectly delighted to see their ridership and revenue soar once it
was extended to their services.

Did that really happen? I find it hard to believe that a near
doubling of fares (introduction of Oyster Zonal pricing has removed
the 49% day return discount, without making the one way journey any
cheaper) resulted in increased ridership

Not exactly. It halved the Vauxhall-Putney single fare for me. I was
told this was to stop day returns going up too much.

Really!

It's difficult to check on the previous fares but you can do some
comparisons with the current fares from outside the boundaries

Fare from Ashford (Middx/Surrey depending upon day of the week) to
London - outside of Oyster: DR 9.90

Fare from Felltham, inside Oyster, based on Zonal one way fares DR
13.30

How can that be of the benefit to the travelling public?

Part of my gain was getting access to railcard discounts but the base fare
must also have fallen, I surmise from £1.70 to £1.30. It's a cheap fare
because both stations are in Zone 2.

I'm sure it was made clear beforehand that the switch to zonal fares on
Oyster would increase some NR fares, though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,

(tim.....) wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 22:15:28 +0100, "
wrote:

Their main experience of CBCs will, of course, be when TfL launches
their facility that will cover the zonal area. It will be
interesting
to see what happens to the relative balance of ticket products and
sales. The London TOCs that were so resistant to Oyster were
perfectly delighted to see their ridership and revenue soar once it
was extended to their services.

Did that really happen? I find it hard to believe that a near
doubling of fares (introduction of Oyster Zonal pricing has removed
the 49% day return discount, without making the one way journey any
cheaper) resulted in increased ridership

Not exactly. It halved the Vauxhall-Putney single fare for me. I was
told this was to stop day returns going up too much.

Really!

It's difficult to check on the previous fares but you can do some
comparisons with the current fares from outside the boundaries

Fare from Ashford (Middx/Surrey depending upon day of the week) to
London - outside of Oyster: DR 9.90

Fare from Felltham, inside Oyster, based on Zonal one way fares DR
13.30

How can that be of the benefit to the travelling public?

Part of my gain was getting access to railcard discounts but the base fare
must also have fallen, I surmise from £1.70 to £1.30. It's a cheap fare
because both stations are in Zone 2.

I'm sure it was made clear beforehand that the switch to zonal fares on
Oyster would increase some NR fares, though.

it was yes, but that not the question.

which was, given that it was known to increases fares did it increases
patronage (not revenue)?

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

On Friday, 27 June 2014 15:06:22 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at

06:26:30 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, Matthew Dickinson

remarked:

It looks like National Express Essex Thameside plan to roll out CPC ticketing across their network



http://nationalexpressgroup.com/medi...?newsitem=1355



"Smart ticketing across the route from day one, with route-wide contactless payment rolled out in 2017."



They are the DfT's chosen pilot for ITSO, so I expect the contactless

payment will be from your ITSO wallet, not your credit card.



ie CPC= Contactless Payment Card, not Contactless Credit Card



It barely qualifies for the term "network" though, having just one

point-to-point line with a loop via Greys. Which also explains why they

have good performance figures. No pesky late-running cross-country

trains from Bristol to Edinburgh competing for their assets.



ps: "Passengers given a new right to be sold the cheapest ticket for any

c2c journey and compensation if they are not."



Isn't this the case already?? Or is it in fact a right to be sold the

cheapest ticket, but no redress if you aren't.



--

Roland Perry

ITSO on c2c is available now , so the 2017 rollout must refer to either payment at ticket offices, or a similar scheme to TfL.

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message ,
at 06:26:30 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
It looks like National Express Essex Thameside plan to roll out CPC
ticketing across their network

http://nationalexpressgroup.com/medi...?newsitem=1355

"Smart ticketing across the route from day one, with route-wide
contactless payment rolled out in 2017."

They are the DfT's chosen pilot for ITSO, so I expect the contactless
payment will be from your ITSO wallet, not your credit card.

ie CPC= Contactless Payment Card, not Contactless Credit Card

It barely qualifies for the term "network" though, having just one
point-to-point line with a loop via Greys. Which also explains why
they have good performance figures. No pesky late-running
cross-country trains from Bristol to Edinburgh competing for their
assets.

Or a loop via Grays even.

ps: "Passengers given a new right to be sold the cheapest ticket for
any
c2c journey and compensation if they are not."

Isn't this the case already?? Or is it in fact a right to be sold the
cheapest ticket, but no redress if you aren't.

How many possible cases are there of not being sold the cheapest ticket?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In message , at
07:52:57 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:

ITSO on c2c is available now , so the 2017 rollout must refer to either
payment at ticket offices, or a similar scheme to TfL.

Can you get a TfL Travelcard on C2C ITSO (or more to the point, will TfL
recognise it?)

Similarly, have C2C already implemented ITSO-purse purchasing of walk-up
tickets at machines?
--
Roland Perry

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In message , at 10:02:43
on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, remarked:
ps: "Passengers given a new right to be sold the cheapest ticket for
any
c2c journey and compensation if they are not."

Isn't this the case already?? Or is it in fact a right to be sold the
cheapest ticket, but no redress if you aren't.

How many possible cases are there of not being sold the cheapest ticket?

Easy, misunderstanding the rules and telling your customer they need a
peak ticket when it's clearly an off-peak journey.

Greater Anglia came extremely close to this last week (not selling the
wrong ticket, but erroneously telling a customer who already had a
ticket it wasn't valid).

And not just a small error, it was late afternoon and the
London-Cambridge SVR ticket in question was valid on any train after
09.30.

They claimed an imaginary rule about not being able to arrive in London
between 17.30 and 18.30
--
Roland Perry

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at
07:52:57 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:

ITSO on c2c is available now , so the 2017 rollout must refer to either
payment at ticket offices, or a similar scheme to TfL.

Can you get a TfL Travelcard on C2C ITSO (or more to the point, will TfL
recognise it?)

Similarly, have C2C already implemented ITSO-purse purchasing of walk-up
tickets at machines?

current ITSO news as of June 16th:

"c2c's ITSO-compliant Smartcard can now be loaded with Anytime Weekday and
Off-Peak Returns, plus weekly, monthly and annual season tickets and used at
sfor (sic) stations between Shoeburyness/Southend and Tilbury Town/West
Horndon"

London travelcards are part of phase II from October

http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/tickets-...art-card/index

http://www.itso.org.uk/

It doesn't say how you actually pay for the tickets that you load onto the
card, so I guess that is by putting some form of payment into the ticket
machine at time of purchase. Nor does it say if the purchased tickets are a
store of open tickets or only for a designated date.

So the only "biggie" here is that you can buy (and presumably pay) online
and pick up your ticket at the gate (or not),

I think we're back to the discussion that we had before about this being
nothing more than an electronic "paper ticket" (with online purchase option)

tim

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

wrote in message
...
In article , (Roland
Perry)
wrote:

In message ,
at 06:26:30 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
It looks like National Express Essex Thameside plan to roll out CPC
ticketing across their network

http://nationalexpressgroup.com/medi...?newsitem=1355

"Smart ticketing across the route from day one, with route-wide
contactless payment rolled out in 2017."

They are the DfT's chosen pilot for ITSO, so I expect the contactless
payment will be from your ITSO wallet, not your credit card.

ie CPC= Contactless Payment Card, not Contactless Credit Card

It barely qualifies for the term "network" though, having just one
point-to-point line with a loop via Greys. Which also explains why
they have good performance figures. No pesky late-running
cross-country trains from Bristol to Edinburgh competing for their
assets.

Or a loop via Grays even.

ps: "Passengers given a new right to be sold the cheapest ticket for
any
c2c journey and compensation if they are not."

Isn't this the case already?? Or is it in fact a right to be sold the
cheapest ticket, but no redress if you aren't.

How many possible cases are there of not being sold the cheapest ticket?

Not being given the "weekend" return price

ISTR someone complaining about the TMs at Cambridge(/Ely) not offering these

tim



--
Colin Rosenstiel

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

On Friday, 27 June 2014 16:22:16 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at

07:52:57 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, Matthew Dickinson

remarked:



ITSO on c2c is available now , so the 2017 rollout must refer to either

payment at ticket offices, or a similar scheme to TfL.



Can you get a TfL Travelcard on C2C ITSO (or more to the point, will TfL

recognise it?)



Similarly, have C2C already implemented ITSO-purse purchasing of walk-up

tickets at machines?

--

Roland Perry

It was launched on the 16th June between West Horndon, Tilbury Town and Shoeburyness. Online and TVMs are both advertised as ways to load tickets.


13th October is the date for Travelcards to be available.

http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/tickets-...art-card/index

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

In message ,
at 06:26:30 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
It looks like National Express Essex Thameside plan to roll out CPC
ticketing across their network


http://nationalexpressgroup.com/medi...?newsitem=1355

"Smart ticketing across the route from day one, with route-wide
contactless payment rolled out in 2017."

They are the DfT's chosen pilot for ITSO, so I expect the contactless
payment will be from your ITSO wallet, not your credit card.

ie CPC= Contactless Payment Card, not Contactless Credit Card

It barely qualifies for the term "network" though, having just one
point-to-point line with a loop via Greys. Which also explains why
they have good performance figures. No pesky late-running
cross-country trains from Bristol to Edinburgh competing for their
assets.

Or a loop via Grays even.

ps: "Passengers given a new right to be sold the cheapest ticket for
any c2c journey and compensation if they are not."

Isn't this the case already?? Or is it in fact a right to be sold the
cheapest ticket, but no redress if you aren't.

How many possible cases are there of not being sold the cheapest
ticket?

Not being given the "weekend" return price

ISTR someone complaining about the TMs at Cambridge(/Ely) not
offering these

You and Roland are missing the point I was making which applied solely to
C2C.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In message , at 17:52:06 on Fri, 27
Jun 2014, tim..... remarked:
ITSO on c2c is available now , so the 2017 rollout must refer to either
payment at ticket offices, or a similar scheme to TfL.

Can you get a TfL Travelcard on C2C ITSO (or more to the point, will
TfL recognise it?)

Similarly, have C2C already implemented ITSO-purse purchasing of
walk-up tickets at machines?

current ITSO news as of June 16th:

"c2c's ITSO-compliant Smartcard can now be loaded with Anytime Weekday
and Off-Peak Returns, plus weekly, monthly and annual season tickets
and used at sfor (sic) stations between Shoeburyness/Southend and
Tilbury Town/West Horndon"

Also for trips to London (not just between Southend and Tilbury?)

London travelcards are part of phase II from October

So still well into vapourware.

http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/tickets-...art-card/index

http://www.itso.org.uk/

It doesn't say how you actually pay for the tickets that you load onto
the card, so I guess that is by putting some form of payment into the
ticket machine at time of purchase. Nor does it say if the purchased
tickets are a store of open tickets or only for a designated date.

My only experience is now somewhat out of date (EMT's ITSO pilot). I
think they didn't activate the purse, and so payment was by traditional
means (including CCs at machine and online).

As purchases at machines are (in almost all cases) famously for "today
only", I haven't tried an online purchase of an ITSO day return for a
day in the future. Anyone compiling a chart of all of this should
certainly have that as one of the tickable possibilities.

So the only "biggie" here is that you can buy (and presumably pay)
online and pick up your ticket at the gate (or not),

That's the future for ITSO, but doesn't explain what happens if you have
multiple tickets awaiting collection. Reverting to a scheme where
tickets dated "today" are only valid "today" would help, but last time
they tried that for Anytime tickets they rapidly changed it back to
"today plus three days" for the outbound leg.

I think we're back to the discussion that we had before about this
being nothing more than an electronic "paper ticket" (with online
purchase option)

That's all it is. With the added problem that if you have several
un-used tickets in your pocket, which one will the barrier decide you
want to use?
--
Roland Perry

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In message , at 17:53:30 on Fri, 27
Jun 2014, tim..... remarked:
How many possible cases are there of not being sold the cheapest ticket?

Not being given the "weekend" return price

ISTR someone complaining about the TMs at Cambridge(/Ely) not offering these

Which was, of course, myself.

[You have to chuckle a bit that the ticket in question is called Can't
be Arsed, or CBA].

Same place that people invented imaginary rules for off-peak weekday
tickets to London.
--
Roland Perry

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In message , at 12:17:47
on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, remarked:
You and Roland are missing the point I was making which applied solely to
C2C.

I'm sure they also have peak/offpeak rules which staff can
misunderstand.

--
Roland Perry

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
12:17:47 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, remarked:
You and Roland are missing the point I was making which applied solely to
C2C.

I'm sure they also have peak/offpeak rules which staff can
misunderstand.

A lot simpler than those of GA & FCC, i bet.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 17:52:06 on Fri, 27 Jun
2014, tim..... remarked:
ITSO on c2c is available now , so the 2017 rollout must refer to either
payment at ticket offices, or a similar scheme to TfL.

Can you get a TfL Travelcard on C2C ITSO (or more to the point, will TfL
recognise it?)

Similarly, have C2C already implemented ITSO-purse purchasing of walk-up
tickets at machines?

current ITSO news as of June 16th:

"c2c's ITSO-compliant Smartcard can now be loaded with Anytime Weekday and
Off-Peak Returns, plus weekly, monthly and annual season tickets and used
at sfor (sic) stations between Shoeburyness/Southend and Tilbury Town/West
Horndon"

Also for trips to London (not just between Southend and Tilbury?)

Is that a question or a statement?

(I think the answer is No)

London travelcards are part of phase II from October

So still well into vapourware.

http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/tickets-...art-card/index

http://www.itso.org.uk/

It doesn't say how you actually pay for the tickets that you load onto the
card, so I guess that is by putting some form of payment into the ticket
machine at time of purchase. Nor does it say if the purchased tickets are
a store of open tickets or only for a designated date.

My only experience is now somewhat out of date (EMT's ITSO pilot). I think
they didn't activate the purse, and so payment was by traditional means
(including CCs at machine and online).

As purchases at machines are (in almost all cases) famously for "today
only", I haven't tried an online purchase of an ITSO day return for a day
in the future. Anyone compiling a chart of all of this should certainly
have that as one of the tickable possibilities.

You can definitely buy tickets "online" for "tomorrow". the engine seemed
exactly the same as the SET one and that sells tickets into the future.

But my query was "can I buy a ticket that I would like to use for one day
next week but I'm not sure which day?" - to be dated the day that I pick it
up (if that is a necessary simplicity).

So the only "biggie" here is that you can buy (and presumably pay) online
and pick up your ticket at the gate (or not),

That's the future for ITSO, but doesn't explain what happens if you have
multiple tickets awaiting collection. Reverting to a scheme where tickets
dated "today" are only valid "today" would help, but last time they tried
that for Anytime tickets they rapidly changed it back to "today plus three
days" for the outbound leg.

I think we're back to the discussion that we had before about this being
nothing more than an electronic "paper ticket" (with online purchase
option)

That's all it is. With the added problem that if you have several un-used
tickets in your pocket, which one will the barrier decide you want to use?

all c2c tickets seem to be "day" validity only, so that problem doesn't
apply here

tim

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

In message ,
at 06:26:30 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
It looks like National Express Essex Thameside plan to roll out CPC
ticketing across their network


http://nationalexpressgroup.com/medi...?newsitem=1355

"Smart ticketing across the route from day one, with route-wide
contactless payment rolled out in 2017."

They are the DfT's chosen pilot for ITSO, so I expect the contactless
payment will be from your ITSO wallet, not your credit card.

ie CPC= Contactless Payment Card, not Contactless Credit Card

It barely qualifies for the term "network" though, having just one
point-to-point line with a loop via Greys. Which also explains why
they have good performance figures. No pesky late-running
cross-country trains from Bristol to Edinburgh competing for their
assets.

Or a loop via Grays even.

ps: "Passengers given a new right to be sold the cheapest ticket for
any c2c journey and compensation if they are not."

Isn't this the case already?? Or is it in fact a right to be sold the
cheapest ticket, but no redress if you aren't.

How many possible cases are there of not being sold the cheapest
ticket?

Not being given the "weekend" return price

ISTR someone complaining about the TMs at Cambridge(/Ely) not
offering these

You and Roland are missing the point I was making which applied solely to
C2C.

perhaps, but I did chose that example because it is an available ticket type
on C2C

tim

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

In message ,
at 06:26:30 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
It looks like National Express Essex Thameside plan to roll out CPC
ticketing across their network


http://nationalexpressgroup.com/medi...?newsitem=1355

"Smart ticketing across the route from day one, with route-wide
contactless payment rolled out in 2017."

They are the DfT's chosen pilot for ITSO, so I expect the
contactless payment will be from your ITSO wallet, not your
credit card.

ie CPC= Contactless Payment Card, not Contactless Credit Card

It barely qualifies for the term "network" though, having just one
point-to-point line with a loop via Greys. Which also explains why
they have good performance figures. No pesky late-running
cross-country trains from Bristol to Edinburgh competing for their
assets.

Or a loop via Grays even.

ps: "Passengers given a new right to be sold the cheapest ticket for
any c2c journey and compensation if they are not."

Isn't this the case already?? Or is it in fact a right to be sold
the cheapest ticket, but no redress if you aren't.

How many possible cases are there of not being sold the cheapest
ticket?

Not being given the "weekend" return price

ISTR someone complaining about the TMs at Cambridge(/Ely) not
offering these

You and Roland are missing the point I was making which applied solely
to C2C.

perhaps, but I did chose that example because it is an available
ticket type on C2C

The key point is that the promise is a bit limited due to the much simpler
ticketing on c2 compared to pretty well every other TOC.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In message , at 21:22:02 on Fri, 27 Jun
2014, tim..... remarked:
"c2c's ITSO-compliant Smartcard can now be loaded with Anytime
Weekday and Off-Peak Returns, plus weekly, monthly and annual season
tickets and used at sfor (sic) stations between Shoeburyness/Southend
and Tilbury Town/West Horndon"

Also for trips to London (not just between Southend and Tilbury?)

Is that a question or a statement?

----------------------- question mark ---------------------------^

(I think the answer is No)

So they are chickening out of getting too involved in London, at the
moment.

London travelcards are part of phase II from October

So still well into vapourware.

http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/tickets-...art-card/index

http://www.itso.org.uk/

It doesn't say how you actually pay for the tickets that you load
onto the card, so I guess that is by putting some form of payment
into the ticket machine at time of purchase. Nor does it say if the
purchased tickets are a store of open tickets or only for a designated date.

My only experience is now somewhat out of date (EMT's ITSO pilot). I
think they didn't activate the purse, and so payment was by
traditional means (including CCs at machine and online).

As purchases at machines are (in almost all cases) famously for
"today only", I haven't tried an online purchase of an ITSO day
return for a day in the future. Anyone compiling a chart of all of
this should certainly have that as one of the tickable possibilities.

You can definitely buy tickets "online" for "tomorrow". the engine
seemed exactly the same as the SET one and that sells tickets into the
future.

This was about using the ITSO purse to *pay* - how does that work
online?

But my query was "can I buy a ticket that I would like to use for one
day next week but I'm not sure which day?" - to be dated the day that I
pick it up (if that is a necessary simplicity).

One way of doing that would be to have a "prepaid voucher" loaded onto
the ITSO card that gets turned into a day-ticket when you touch in. I
wouldn't want to be designing a system that allowed more than one
voucher at a time to be active.

So the only "biggie" here is that you can buy (and presumably pay)
online and pick up your ticket at the gate (or not),

That's the future for ITSO, but doesn't explain what happens if you
have multiple tickets awaiting collection. Reverting to a scheme
where tickets dated "today" are only valid "today" would help, but
last time they tried that for Anytime tickets they rapidly changed it
back to "today plus three days" for the outbound leg.

I think we're back to the discussion that we had before about this
being nothing more than an electronic "paper ticket" (with online
purchase option)

That's all it is. With the added problem that if you have several
un-used tickets in your pocket, which one will the barrier decide you
want to use?

all c2c tickets seem to be "day" validity only, so that problem doesn't
apply here

They could be, but the idea is that one day ITSO will be used across the
country on routes that do have period returns. So actually it's not a
very representative pilot if the C2C line doesn't have those.
--
Roland Perry

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In message , at 13:04:33
on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, remarked:

You and Roland are missing the point I was making which applied solely to
C2C.

I'm sure they also have peak/offpeak rules which staff can
misunderstand.

A lot simpler than those of GA & FCC, i bet.

They seem to have just one off-peak ticket on weekdays, valid for
arrival in London after 10am and any train back.

So this ITSO trial on C2C isn't really going to test how well they can
cope with a mixture of evening restrictions.
--
Roland Perry

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 21:22:02 on Fri, 27 Jun
2014, tim..... remarked:
"c2c's ITSO-compliant Smartcard can now be loaded with Anytime Weekday
and Off-Peak Returns, plus weekly, monthly and annual season tickets and
used at sfor (sic) stations between Shoeburyness/Southend and Tilbury
Town/West Horndon"

Also for trips to London (not just between Southend and Tilbury?)

Is that a question or a statement?

----------------------- question mark ---------------------------^

It is inside the bracket (and therefore seems to be saying "is it
Tilbury?") - I thought you were better at English than me :--)

tim

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 21:22:02 on Fri, 27 Jun
2014, tim..... remarked:

You can definitely buy tickets "online" for "tomorrow". the engine seemed
exactly the same as the SET one and that sells tickets into the future.

This was about using the ITSO purse to *pay* - how does that work online?

I didn't think we'd even established that there is an (operational) purse.

But if there is, taking the money from the purse and replacing it with a
ticket valid for X, within the "to be collected" database, doesn't seem too
technically difficult.

But my query was "can I buy a ticket that I would like to use for one day
next week but I'm not sure which day?" - to be dated the day that I pick
it up (if that is a necessary simplicity).

One way of doing that would be to have a "prepaid voucher" loaded onto the
ITSO card that gets turned into a day-ticket when you touch in. I wouldn't
want to be designing a system that allowed more than one voucher at a time
to be active.

Once again I don't think the system level design is too difficult here.

Not sure how your single ticket option will work if someone wants to make a
lunchtime journey that they didn't anticipate when they left home for work.
TBH this seems to be the only "difficult" thing that they have to consider
ATM.

Perhaps this is why they have trials. The geeks in the office don't even
bother to come up with a set of scenarios that don't work and postulate
solutions, before implementation of a trial. They just wait to see what
breaks and fix it later (no doubt to the immense inconvenience of the first
customer who tries it)

So the only "biggie" here is that you can buy (and presumably pay)
online and pick up your ticket at the gate (or not),

That's the future for ITSO, but doesn't explain what happens if you have
multiple tickets awaiting collection. Reverting to a scheme where
tickets dated "today" are only valid "today" would help, but last time
they tried that for Anytime tickets they rapidly changed it back to
"today plus three days" for the outbound leg.

I think we're back to the discussion that we had before about this being
nothing more than an electronic "paper ticket" (with online purchase
option)

That's all it is. With the added problem that if you have several
un-used tickets in your pocket, which one will the barrier decide you
want to use?

all c2c tickets seem to be "day" validity only, so that problem doesn't
apply here

They could be, but the idea is that one day ITSO will be used across the
country on routes that do have period returns. So actually it's not a very
representative pilot if the C2C line doesn't have those.

Oh I agree

No doubt there will have to be more trial operations when such a TOC does
implement it

tim

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In message , at 11:30:06 on Sat, 28
Jun 2014, tim..... remarked:

You can definitely buy tickets "online" for "tomorrow". the engine
seemed exactly the same as the SET one and that sells tickets into
the future.

This was about using the ITSO purse to *pay* - how does that work online?

I didn't think we'd even established that there is an (operational) purse.

ITSO cards are supposed to have purses, and although it's a while since
I tried I think there was evidence of a dormant purse when using EMT's
early ITSO-equipped TVMs

I have a Centro "Swift" card (for buses) which has a purse - I had to
pay £10 for the card because it comes pre-loaded with some funds. At tht
point it's remarkably similar to using an PAYG Oyster on a bus.

But if there is, taking the money from the purse and replacing it with
a ticket valid for X, within the "to be collected" database, doesn't
seem too technically difficult.

But my query was "can I buy a ticket that I would like to use for one
day next week but I'm not sure which day?" - to be dated the day that
I pick it up (if that is a necessary simplicity).

One way of doing that would be to have a "prepaid voucher" loaded
onto the ITSO card that gets turned into a day-ticket when you touch
in. I wouldn't want to be designing a system that allowed more than
one voucher at a time to be active.

Once again I don't think the system level design is too difficult here.

Not sure how your single ticket option will work if someone wants to
make a lunchtime journey that they didn't anticipate when they left
home for work. TBH this seems to be the only "difficult" thing that
they have to consider ATM.

More difficult is if you have trips to different destinations loaded as
vouchers. Say you live in Grays and have vouchers for both Southend and
London, because you anticipate visiting both soon (and not necessarily
knowing in which order). Which voucher should it swap for a ticket?

Perhaps this is why they have trials. The geeks in the office don't
even bother to come up with a set of scenarios that don't work and
postulate solutions, before implementation of a trial. They just wait
to see what breaks and fix it later (no doubt to the immense
inconvenience of the first customer who tries it)

It's a bit more pre-planned than that, although I agree there have been
some major hiccups that should have been anticipated. For example my EMT
card would only allow me to buy Child tickets, because the card knows
your age and the simplest explanations is that they'd coded the DOB
field on the card with its issue date.

--
Roland Perry

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:44:14 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:
They could be, but the idea is that one day ITSO will be used
across the
country on routes that do have period returns.

It's out of date before they even start.

Neil

--
Neil Williams. Use neil before the at to reply.

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 10:55:54 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Perhaps this is why they have trials. The geeks in the office don't
even bother to come up with a set of scenarios that don't work and
postulate solutions, before implementation of a trial. They just wait
to see what breaks and fix it later (no doubt to the immense
inconvenience of the first customer who tries it)

It's a bit more pre-planned than that, although I agree there have been
some major hiccups that should have been anticipated. For example my EMT
card would only allow me to buy Child tickets, because the card knows
your age and the simplest explanations is that they'd coded the DOB
field on the card with its issue date.

A lot of effort and HUGE amounts of money just to replace a small bit of
paper card that did the job fine. What a joke.

--
Spud

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
13:04:33 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, remarked:

You and Roland are missing the point I was making which applied solely
to C2C.

I'm sure they also have peak/offpeak rules which staff can
misunderstand.

A lot simpler than those of GA & FCC, i bet.

They seem to have just one off-peak ticket on weekdays, valid for
arrival in London after 10am and any train back.

So this ITSO trial on C2C isn't really going to test how well they
can cope with a mixture of evening restrictions.

Indeed, as the barriers at Cambridge can't do already. Every time I come
back on an Off-Peak Day Return in the evening peak from Liverpool St (as
permitted) the barrier doesn't let me out.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

TfL acknowledges contactless technology risk
 

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 10:55:54 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Perhaps this is why they have trials. The geeks in the office don't
even bother to come up with a set of scenarios that don't work and
postulate solutions, before implementation of a trial. They just wait
to see what breaks and fix it later (no doubt to the immense
inconvenience of the first customer who tries it)

It's a bit more pre-planned than that, although I agree there have been
some major hiccups that should have been anticipated. For example my EMT
card would only allow me to buy Child tickets, because the card knows
your age and the simplest explanations is that they'd coded the DOB
field on the card with its issue date.

A lot of effort and HUGE amounts of money just to replace a small bit of
paper card that did the job fine. What a joke.

I think they make a big contribution to the evolvement of season tickets by
offering flexible number of days and carnets for one's regular journey.

But I agree that, as a complete replacement for single point to point
tickets, the complications of not knowing whether the pax is making the
return journey from an outbound he has already used or a new outbound to
somewhere else is (almost) unsolvable - and that problem's just the same
whether you force pax to "buy" a virtual ticket before travel or rely upon
calculating the fare using Oyster style check-in/check-out.

Of course, other transport operators who are looking at using this
technology don't have the concept of (substantial) discounts for return
journeys, but I can see that doing away with day/period return discounts is
going to endear the public to this new ticketing system.

tim









--
Spud