Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

Govia plan to extend Oyster PAYG to Epsom, Gatwick Airport, Luton Airport, Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North.

Page 21 of http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/c...esentation.pdf

I wonder if the AGA PAYG extension to Hertford East will be revived.

Stansted would also be logical with the new emphasis on serving airports.

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

In message , at
06:38:30 on Mon, 14 Jul 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
Govia plan to extend Oyster PAYG to Epsom, Gatwick Airport, Luton Airport, Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North.

Page 21 of http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/c...esentation.pdf

I wonder if the AGA PAYG extension to Hertford East will be revived.

Stansted would also be logical with the new emphasis on serving airports.

Has TfL solved the problem of there only being an absurdly low number of
possible 'zones' for Oyster cards?

It's interesting that Govia are pushing Oyster, when the current
Southern incumbent is pushing ITSO instead.

ps I note that (subject to getting someone else to pay for it) they will
be introducing 25 electric vehicle charging points. erm... that's
significantly less than one per station (they claim to have over a
hundred 'busiest' ones).
--
Roland Perry

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

On Mon, 14 Jul 2014 15:08:17 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:
It's interesting that Govia are pushing Oyster, when the current
Southern incumbent is pushing ITSO instead.

SN is run by...Govia!

Neil

--
Neil Williams. Use neil before the at to reply.

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

In message , at 16:17:11 on
Mon, 14 Jul 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:

It's interesting that Govia are pushing Oyster, when the current
Southern incumbent is pushing ITSO instead.

Surely it's connected? Having made the effort to introduce the Key

That's the "the Key", Shirley?

on Southern and to get it working into London it makes huge sense to
maximise the return from that effort.

Yes, but that's by making the "the Key" tickets interoperable within TfL
space, which they were already committed to, but at the current rate
won't actually achieve before their franchise turns into the the famous
pumpkin.

The Key will cover the entire TSGN franchise anyway.

That's good news. I look forward to using the "the Key" I have from
Southern for trips from Cambridgshire. Obviously, the the cough first
thing I'll try out is whether or not I can load a TSGN train ticket onto
the "the Key" I have for Oxford buses. And if not, why the the hell not?

There is also a proposal to extend smart ticketing (Oyster isn't
specifically mentioned) to the Luton Airport bus shuttle to the
Parkway station. That could be interesting if it happens *and*
includes Oyster.

Airport employees already have free travel on that there bus, and tptb
don't seem particularly worried about collecting fares from walk-up
passengers (which were originally free, anyway). Perhaps the the best
thing they could do is extract a Tfl bus-fare from everyone via their
Oyster, although I do wonder how many tourists arriving at Luton will
have that there Oyster.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

Airport employees already have free travel on that there bus, and tptb

don't seem particularly worried about collecting fares from walk-up

passengers (which were originally free, anyway). Perhaps the the best

thing they could do is extract a Tfl bus-fare from everyone via their

Oyster, although I do wonder how many tourists arriving at Luton will

have that there Oyster.

--

Roland Perry

Easyjet sell Vistor Oystercards onboard.

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

In message , at
10:02:37 on Mon, 14 Jul 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
I do wonder how many tourists arriving at Luton will
have that there Oyster.

Easyjet sell Vistor Oystercards onboard.

That's very helpful, if only more of them did. Although how actively. I
remember when it was said that the Eurostar lounge at St Pancras sold
Paris RATP carnets. But only if you absolutely insisted, and they went
away and discussed it with a manager.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Mon, 14 Jul 2014 15:08:17 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:
It's interesting that Govia are pushing Oyster, when the current
Southern incumbent is pushing ITSO instead.

SN is run by...Govia!

and will be part of the TSGN franchise next year.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

In message , at 18:55:45
on Mon, 14 Jul 2014, remarked:
It's interesting that Govia are pushing Oyster, when the current
Southern incumbent is pushing ITSO instead.

SN is run by...Govia!

and will be part of the TSGN franchise next year.

Yes, I don't know what I was thinking... So I'm all set, already having
Southern ITSO card, assuming they press on with their current project.

"Nine London Terminal stations: London Waterloo, London Blackfriars,
Vauxhall, London Bridge, London Victoria, Waterloo East, Charing Cross,
Cannon Street and City Thameslink will accept the key from Spring 2014,
followed by the rest of the Southern Network and London Underground and
buses in Summer 2014."

Is it summer yet?
--
Roland Perry

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
18:55:45 on Mon, 14 Jul 2014, remarked:
It's interesting that Govia are pushing Oyster, when the current
Southern incumbent is pushing ITSO instead.

SN is run by...Govia!

and will be part of the TSGN franchise next year.

Yes, I don't know what I was thinking... So I'm all set, already
having Southern ITSO card, assuming they press on with their current
project.

"Nine London Terminal stations: London Waterloo, London Blackfriars,
Vauxhall, London Bridge, London Victoria, Waterloo East, Charing
Cross, Cannon Street and City Thameslink will accept the key from
Spring 2014, followed by the rest of the Southern Network and London
Underground and buses in Summer 2014."

Is it summer yet?

Autumn next year then!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

In message , at 03:10:13
on Tue, 15 Jul 2014, remarked:
So I'm all set, already
having Southern ITSO card, assuming they press on with their current
project.

"Nine London Terminal stations: London Waterloo, London Blackfriars,
Vauxhall, London Bridge, London Victoria, Waterloo East, Charing
Cross, Cannon Street and City Thameslink will accept the key from
Spring 2014, followed by the rest of the Southern Network and London
Underground and buses in Summer 2014."

Is it summer yet?

Autumn next year then!

The ITSO on Underground is already late - it was originally supposed to
be 2013[1].

Talking of which, it's gone very quiet on the "Contactless" rollout on
the tube.

[1] From "ITSO news" May 2013:

Summer {that's summer 2103 -ed} will see 21 gated stations within
London start to accept some Southern rail tickets on the key card.
These include Victoria, London Bridge, Purley, Peckham Rye and
Sutton. The rest of this year will see more and more key services
being rolled out ... December is the target date for the
Underground, and London’s ungated and overground rail stations, to
be geared up to accept the key...
--
Roland Perry

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

I saw "ITSO cards not accepted" on a TfL bus ETM display a few days ago, so they now do at least recognise ITSO cards.

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 11:46:52 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 09:39:04 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

Talking of which, it's gone very quiet on the "Contactless" rollout on
the tube.

Expect to hear something very soon. The Mayorwatch blog tweeted
yesterday that TfL had given them a briefing on contactless fares. I
assume this is in anticipation on a launch announcement very soon so
that the media / social media don't give out confusing messages!

The big railway doesn't seem very ready for a proper launch yet. I was
ticket inspected on a train last week and the inspector didn't have a
way of checking my contactless card and although he had heard about the
pilot he had never actually seen a membership card before and didn't
know what they looked like. Felt a bit like waving psychic paper about.

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
03:10:13 on Tue, 15 Jul 2014, remarked:
So I'm all set, already
having Southern ITSO card, assuming they press on with their current
project.

"Nine London Terminal stations: London Waterloo, London Blackfriars,
Vauxhall, London Bridge, London Victoria, Waterloo East, Charing
Cross, Cannon Street and City Thameslink will accept the key from
Spring 2014, followed by the rest of the Southern Network and London
Underground and buses in Summer 2014."

Is it summer yet?

Autumn next year then!

The ITSO on Underground is already late - it was originally supposed
to be 2013[1].

Talking of which, it's gone very quiet on the "Contactless" rollout
on the tube.

[1] From "ITSO news" May 2013:

Summer {that's summer 2103 -ed} will see 21 gated stations within
London start to accept some Southern rail tickets on the key card.
These include Victoria, London Bridge, Purley, Peckham Rye and
Sutton. The rest of this year will see more and more key services
being rolled out ... December is the target date for the
Underground, and London_s ungated and overground rail stations, to
be geared up to accept the key...

I joked about using my Bus Pass on the 11 bus yesterday. Driver nodded me
through. No record of the journey at all either time. I thought I'd try out
some of the nice NB4Ls between Liverpool St station and Parliament Street.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

In article ,
(Matthew Dickinson) wrote:

I saw "ITSO cards not accepted" on a TfL bus ETM display a few days
ago, so they now do at least recognise ITSO cards.

Not the route 11 NB4Ls I rode on yesterday.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

On Monday, 14 July 2014 16:17:11 UTC+1, Paul Corfield wrote:



There is also a proposal to extend smart ticketing (Oyster isn't

specifically mentioned) to the Luton Airport bus shuttle to the

Parkway station. That could be interesting if it happens *and*

includes Oyster.


This pdf states that Oyster is the aim: "Smart ticketing to be introduced on bus link. Oyster Pay As You Go to be extended to cover services to/from Luton Airport Parkway, including bus link, subject to agreement with TfL"

http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/c...%20 route.pdf

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 13:52:27 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
The big railway doesn't seem very ready for a proper launch yet. I was
ticket inspected on a train last week and the inspector didn't have a
way of checking my contactless card and although he had heard about the
pilot he had never actually seen a membership card before and didn't
know what they looked like. Felt a bit like waving psychic paper about.

While I haven't expended a lot of brain power on the issue I can't see
how contactless bank cards can be checked by any railway inspector. On
a bus the inspector obtains a print out from the driver's machine and
checks card numbers presented by passengers against the list. Given
you just tap your bank card on a reader on the rail network and there
is no "write" record on the bank card (AFAIK) then what is there to
check? The transaction data all goes to a "black box" for calculation
of fares and caps.

It's possible I have a knowledge gap about the card technology and
cards can be checked in some way that I'm unaware of.

Perhaps you can't tell by interrogating the card but you could log all
contactless cards that passengers claim to be using and then as part of
the overnight processing bill any cards that were checked by an inspector
but hadn't started a journey with a penalty fare.

Although that would leave the system open to abuse by people with pre-paid
cards, assuming they can be used at all and they aren't registered to
an individual.

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 17:15:08 +0100, David Walters wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 13:52:27 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
The big railway doesn't seem very ready for a proper launch yet. I was
ticket inspected on a train last week and the inspector didn't have a
way of checking my contactless card and although he had heard about the
pilot he had never actually seen a membership card before and didn't
know what they looked like. Felt a bit like waving psychic paper about.

While I haven't expended a lot of brain power on the issue I can't see
how contactless bank cards can be checked by any railway inspector. On
a bus the inspector obtains a print out from the driver's machine and
checks card numbers presented by passengers against the list. Given
you just tap your bank card on a reader on the rail network and there
is no "write" record on the bank card (AFAIK) then what is there to
check? The transaction data all goes to a "black box" for calculation
of fares and caps.

It's possible I have a knowledge gap about the card technology and
cards can be checked in some way that I'm unaware of.

Perhaps you can't tell by interrogating the card but you could log all
contactless cards that passengers claim to be using and then as part of
the overnight processing bill any cards that were checked by an inspector
but hadn't started a journey with a penalty fare.

I've just logged onto the Contactless website and there is now a 'Today's
Travel' section that appears new. Could the gates/validators now be
close enough to online and real-time that an inspector could have an
online reader that checks with a central database, provided you aren't
currently in a tunnel?

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 17:15:08 +0100
David Walters wrote:
Perhaps you can't tell by interrogating the card but you could log all
contactless cards that passengers claim to be using and then as part of
the overnight processing bill any cards that were checked by an inspector
but hadn't started a journey with a penalty fare.

TfL takes money out of your account later on when it thinks its owed it? I can
see that going down like a bucket of cold sick.

--
Spud

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

On Tuesday, 15 July 2014 18:17:27 UTC+1, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 09:00:13 -0700 (PDT), Matthew Dickinson

wrote:



On Monday, 14 July 2014 16:17:11 UTC+1, Paul Corfield wrote:



There is also a proposal to extend smart ticketing (Oyster isn't

specifically mentioned) to the Luton Airport bus shuttle to the

Parkway station. That could be interesting if it happens *and*

includes Oyster.



This pdf states that Oyster is the aim: "Smart ticketing to be introduced on bus link. Oyster Pay As You Go to be extended to cover services to/from Luton Airport Parkway, including bus link, subject to agreement with TfL"



http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/c...%20 route.pdf



Hmm - I may have read that pdf too quickly the other day or Govia

might have tweaked the wording. I'm sure it wasn't quite that clear

about Oyster on the bus link. Thanks for the clarification.



The wording also raises another interesting question which is what

"extend Oyster to and from Luton Airport Parkway" really means. Does

it mean :-



a) from within the zonal area and existing "out boundary" Oyster

equipped stations just to Luton Airport Parkway.



b) from within the zonal area and existing "out boundary" Oyster

equipped station to / from stations from Elstree and Borehamwood up to

and including Luton Airport Parkway



c) from within the zonal area and existing "out boundary" Oyster

equipped station to / from stations from Elstree and Borehamwood up to

and including Luton Airport Parkway and all stations north thereof to

Bedford.



--

Paul C

Other interesting aspects are that EMT would have to accept PAYG, and if LAP is the limit, I can see demands for Luton itself to be included.

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

In message , at 11:46:52 on
Tue, 15 Jul 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
Talking of which, it's gone very quiet on the "Contactless" rollout on
the tube.

Expect to hear something very soon.

My friend who is on the trial has apparently been contacted with a view
to being sent the cash-bonus for trialists. Which might indicate it's
coming to an end.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

In message , at 17:15:08 on
Tue, 15 Jul 2014, David Walters remarked:
It's possible I have a knowledge gap about the card technology and
cards can be checked in some way that I'm unaware of.

I don't think the cards can be checked, but in theory an online gripper
could ask the back-office if they've seen any flying pigs delivering
that card number and an associated touch-in recently.

Perhaps you can't tell by interrogating the card but you could log all
contactless cards that passengers claim to be using and then as part of
the overnight processing bill any cards that were checked by an inspector
but hadn't started a journey with a penalty fare.

Although that would leave the system open to abuse by people with pre-paid
cards, assuming they can be used at all and they aren't registered to
an individual.

And the reverse, which is accidentally giving the gripper the "wrong"
card and hence creating an unresolved journey when in fact you had
touched in with another of your cards.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

In message , at 15:33:39 on
Tue, 15 Jul 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 09:39:04 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:


Talking of which, it's gone very quiet on the "Contactless" rollout on
the tube.

No date yet but some feedback from the Mayorwatch blog that may be of
interest.

http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/much-del...ess-rail-fares
-cant-fail-to-impress/

"TfL say customers will only ever pay the lowest fare for their journey"

I bet that doesn't include price-matching split ticketing of the kind
someone was discussing earlier.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 15:33:39
on Tue, 15 Jul 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 09:39:04 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

Talking of which, it's gone very quiet on the "Contactless" rollout on
the tube.

No date yet but some feedback from the Mayorwatch blog that may be of
interest.


http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/much-del...rail-fares-can
t-fail-to-impress/

"TfL say customers will only ever pay the lowest fare for their journey"

I bet that doesn't include price-matching split ticketing of the kind
someone was discussing earlier.

Hmm. Time to involve Trading Standards or the ASA?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

wrote in
:

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at 15:33:39
on Tue, 15 Jul 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 09:39:04 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

Talking of which, it's gone very quiet on the "Contactless" rollout
on the tube.

No date yet but some feedback from the Mayorwatch blog that may be
of interest.


http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/much-del...less-rail-fare
s-can
t-fail-to-impress/

"TfL say customers will only ever pay the lowest fare for their
journey"

I bet that doesn't include price-matching split ticketing of the kind
someone was discussing earlier.

Hmm. Time to involve Trading Standards or the ASA?


TfL certainly used to say for Oyster that "customers will only ever pay the
lowest fare for their journey", but I thought it had been dropped a few
years ago (there are a fair number of scenarios, things like National Rail
journeys with railcards starting between 16.00 and 19.00, where Oyster
doesn't offer the lowest fare).

I'm amazed this claim is being made for contactless.

David

Oyster PAYG Extensions
 

On 15/07/2014 13:52, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 13:02:04 +0100, David Walters
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 11:46:52 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
[snip]

While I haven't expended a lot of brain power on the issue I can't see
how contactless bank cards can be checked by any railway inspector. On
a bus the inspector obtains a print out from the driver's machine and
checks card numbers presented by passengers against the list. Given
you just tap your bank card on a reader on the rail network and there
is no "write" record on the bank card (AFAIK) then what is there to
check? The transaction data all goes to a "black box" for calculation
of fares and caps.

It's possible I have a knowledge gap about the card technology and
cards can be checked in some way that I'm unaware of.


With contactless EMV cards (cEMV - bank cards) you are correct that
nothing can be written back to the card at the point of use (although
that may change in the future. So the only way that a mid-trip ticket
inspection can work is that the 'tap' record from teh inspector's device
is fed back to the back office system.

If there is a cirresponding 'entry tap' for the same card within an
appropriate interval before the inspection then all is well, and the
back office will charge thepassenger the 'normal' fare, subject to any
appropriate caps, discounts, etc. But if there isnt an entry tap, then
the passenger (or more accurately their card) can be charged a
'standard' (aka 'penalty') fare, although this may well require a change
to the Conditions of Carriage.

HTH

Kevin