In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
06:39:25 on Mon, 11 Aug 2014, remarked:
From the context, and the fact they've been awarded a temporary
extension while the DfT gets its act together for new tendering, I
suggest it means "Short Term Agreement".

See also:


http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/p.../greater-angli
a-direct-award-franchise-agreed.html

Which does nothing to answer the question.

"The short-term agreement features a £20m package of improvements
which includes..."

Your surmise then. No use of or decoding of the acronym.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
06:39:25 on Mon, 11 Aug 2014, remarked:
If the Kings Lynn line is to be officially "GN", does this mean that in
a few years when a GTR train pulls into Farringdon on its way north
that it'll be announced as a GN train if heading for Peterborough/
Cambridge, and something else... perhaps Thameslink if heading for
Bedford. Doesn't that rather balkanise the new integrated TSGN
franchise?

They seem to do exactly that from the stakeholder presentation I've seen.
It shows "Gatwick Express", "Southern", "Great Northern" and "Thameslink"
brands as well as "Govia".

I've found this in the trade press:

"The Thameslink brand is to be re-introduced, and Southern and
Gatwick Express brands retained."

No mention of GN, and could encompass using GTR on all the
'Thameslink' services.

Another possibility is they might use GN temporarily until
through-running starts, but that leaves the Kings Lynn-Kings Cross
services out on a limb.

Look at the GTR material which makes the planned use of the "Great Northern"
brand very clear, even to argumentative Usenet users.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 09:01:32
on Mon, 11 Aug 2014, remarked:
From the context, and the fact they've been awarded a temporary
extension while the DfT gets its act together for new tendering, I
suggest it means "Short Term Agreement".

See also:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/p.../greater-angli
a-direct-award-franchise-agreed.html

Which does nothing to answer the question.

"The short-term agreement features a £20m package of improvements
which includes..."

Your surmise then. No use of or decoding of the acronym.

It's the only meaning that makes any sense. Especially as Abellio are
crowing (in their stunningly inaccessible e-magazine) about how they
have several unprecedented things happening in the STA period which map
closely to those mentioned in the article.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 14:32:46 on
Mon, 11 Aug 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
Another possibility is they might use GN temporarily until
through-running starts, but that leaves the Kings Lynn-Kings Cross
services out on a limb.

I understand they're going to call the Kings Lynn service the "Perry
Express Rail Link" ;-)

Today it's kind-of the "Fen Line" (in whose user-group magazine I've
been featured giving a grumpy interview).

But "Perry Express Ra*I*l Link" has a certain appeal.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 09:01:32
on Mon, 11 Aug 2014, remarked:
Another possibility is they might use GN temporarily until
through-running starts, but that leaves the Kings Lynn-Kings Cross
services out on a limb.

Look at the GTR material which makes the planned use of the "Great
Northern" brand very clear,

For the duration, or just until Thameslink 2018 is finished?

Remember, I'm interested in what the PIS will say.

Comments like this one (Wikipedia) don't count, because FCC don't call
the trains GN (or even Thameslink) currently:

"From September 2014 Govia will take over Great Northern and Thameslink
routes from First Capital Connect, serving 122 stations and operating a
fleet of 226 trains."

It's just the name of the line, not the brand name of the service.

even to argumentative Usenet users.

Moi?
--
Roland Perry

On Monday, 11 August 2014 15:30:05 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:01:32

on Mon, 11 Aug 2014, remarked:

Another possibility is they might use GN temporarily until

through-running starts, but that leaves the Kings Lynn-Kings Cross

services out on a limb.



Look at the GTR material which makes the planned use of the "Great

Northern" brand very clear,



For the duration, or just until Thameslink 2018 is finished?



Remember, I'm interested in what the PIS will say.



Comments like this one (Wikipedia) don't count, because FCC don't call

the trains GN (or even Thameslink) currently:



"From September 2014 Govia will take over Great Northern and Thameslink

routes from First Capital Connect, serving 122 stations and operating a

fleet of 226 trains."



http://www.govia.info/gtr/our-plans/

'Thameslink' identity restored for services running through central core; 'Great Northern' for Kings Cross/Moorgate services.

which says to me that the brand will be Great Northern for all services until 2018, after which it would be retained for the Kings Cross to Kings Lynn and the Moorgate to Welwyn and Hertford services only.

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
09:01:32 on Mon, 11 Aug 2014, remarked:
Another possibility is they might use GN temporarily until
through-running starts, but that leaves the Kings Lynn-Kings Cross
services out on a limb.

Look at the GTR material which makes the planned use of the "Great
Northern" brand very clear,

For the duration, or just until Thameslink 2018 is finished?

Remember, I'm interested in what the PIS will say.

Comments like this one (Wikipedia) don't count, because FCC don't
call the trains GN (or even Thameslink) currently:

"From September 2014 Govia will take over Great Northern and
Thameslink routes from First Capital Connect, serving 122 stations
and operating a fleet of 226 trains."

It's just the name of the line, not the brand name of the service.

I have in front of me "Factsheet 2" issued to stakeholders in Cambridge on
15th July. It has "Great Northern", "GTR" and "Govia" brands at the foot and
shows the "Great Northern 'Outer' services" including those from 2018 via
SPILL to Blackfriars and beyond. It's on the web at
http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/c...t%202%20-%20Gr
eat%20Northern%20outer%20services.pdf

It's all at http://www.govia.info/gtr/.

even to argumentative Usenet users.

Moi?

If the cap fits, as we used to say. :-)

See you at Tim and Kate's on Saturday?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
09:01:32 on Mon, 11 Aug 2014, remarked:
From the context, and the fact they've been awarded a temporary
extension while the DfT gets its act together for new tendering, I
suggest it means "Short Term Agreement".

See also:


http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/p...w/greater-angl
ia-direct-award-franchise-agreed.html

Which does nothing to answer the question.

"The short-term agreement features a £20m package of improvements
which includes..."

Your surmise then. No use of or decoding of the acronym.

It's the only meaning that makes any sense. Especially as Abellio are
crowing (in their stunningly inaccessible e-magazine) about how they
have several unprecedented things happening in the STA period which
map closely to those mentioned in the article.

I suppose there is that. Hardly transparent though. The inward-facing nature
of the publication is also suggested by giving their intranet username and
password. I wonder why?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 08:23:59 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 22:33:54 on
Sat, 9 Aug 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:

That page (in common with the others I quote on similar matters) aren't
project plans being updated, they are one-off press releases saying
something along the lines of "Aren't we clever, lots of new ticketing
technology just around the corner".

What I'm pointing out is that very often (and especially it seems for
new ticketing) these estimates are wildly optimistic and cannot be
relied upon at all. Other than as a warning that perhaps many of the
other things organisations claim to be in the pipeline are also likely
to be over-optimistic.

OK they are crap at managing news. Next problem!

ps I'm not sure what's so complicated about negotiations to allow TOCs
who are already selling paper Travelcards load onto an ITSO card they
already issue[1]. Isn't it TfL who have the "agree" to accept them (and
if money is involved in loading them, which way is it flowing?)

[1] SWT, Southern and EMT at the moment, I suppose.

Sales, acceptance and accounting for Travelcards are covered in the
Travelcard agreement which all TOCs are party to. I suspect trying to
modify the Travelcard Agreement just to reflect ITSO based products is
a step too far. Asking all TOCs to be involved and to sign off when
some have no ITSO products on their network and may not do so for
years is just asking for years of delay.

This is something which should be done by ATOC on behalf of all the
TOCs.

They don't though. Each TOC is represented in a "scheme" brought
together by ATOC. ATOC cannot override the commercial interests of
individual TOCs. Well that was how it was a number of years ago. It
might have changed but I doubt it. I can't see any TOC surrendering
their commercial interest to a central body for the purposes of
negotiation.

Having gone back and checked the latest report I see TfL are saying
the DfT are negotiated the agreements so I apologise for misleading
you in previous posts.

Given each TOC will have their own HOPS and it will need to talk to
Tfl's systems and there will need to be data exchange, sharing,
revenue settlement etc I can see why there may be complications.

Again, I don't know what's so different about revenue settlement at the
point of use of a Travelcard (rather than when it's sold). When it's
being used all that needs to be done is validate that it's "in Zone".

Funny I always thought the Travelcard apportionment was done on a trip
basis by mode but I might be wrong. Again I doubt smartcard data is
accepted as a primary data source rather than the long established
survey process. I do expect the parties look at Oyster data as an
additional source.

Or are you saying that unbeknown to the passengers they are counting how
much the Travelcard is actually (rather than potentially) used on which
routes, and divvying up the revenue retrospectively?

Of course they are counting journey data. If it wasn't important why
do Southern insist that the Key card is touched in and out even when
you have a single ticket on the card?

Quite whether they are cross checking against Travelcards I don't
know. I would expect TOCs to look at the data to see how many trips
are made with season tickets and how many are normal commutes and how
many are leisure journeys. That's just an interesting bit of data any
rail company would want to know if it can be reasonably certain about
the data quality.

I expect I'm more likely to be using a TSGN ITSO card (for my travel to
London); it'll be interesting to see if those interoperate well with
ITSO gates at places like Cambridge which are operated by GA.

Well that's for Govia and AGA to sort out. There is no central
"guiding hand" which is why you get the nonsense of some mag tickets
with special validities not being recognised.

I'm not holding my breath to be able to add a GA (or any other
'foreign') ITSO ticket onto my TSGN card[1], or onto a local Stagecoach
bus ITSO card.

I think the bus stuff might be a step too far *unless* there is a lot
of customer pressure to force Stagecoach and Govia to work together.
There is actually a fair bit of overlap along the line of the TSGN
franchise so never say never.

I expect South East Flexible Ticketing will have to sort out inter
operator acceptance for valid rail tickets. To not do so would be
lunacy.

[1] Whatever branding it gets, currently it's Southern "the Key" of
course. Have they decided to brand themselves GTR long term, or is that
just a working title?

All Go Ahead businesses use the "Key" brand name for their transport
smartcard so I can't see TSGN being any different. They refer to the
Key in their documents related to the franchise changes.

The stakeholder material I was given in July only refers to "Smartcard
ticketing" being introduced in 2015, first item after "Southern and Gatwick
Express join" [GTR].

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
() wrote:

It's all at http://www.govia.info/gtr/.

The presentation to stakeholders is
http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/c...anchise%20pres
entation.pdf.

--
Colin Rosenstiel