On 10/10/2014 11:40, Neil Williams wrote:

On 2014-10-10 08:33:06 +0000, Roland Perry said:

I've seen similar (or were they an earlier version of the same)
reports about extending Oyster to those airports. Maybe the roll-out
of contactless payments will trump that, especially for the tourist
market who are unlikely to have Oysters (on arrival at Luton, anyway).

Indeed. While Oyster was definitely a worthwhile product of its time, I
suspect it has a very limited future lifespan - 5 to 10 years maybe - as
banking products replace it.

No chance, for the many for whom that's not an option. As Paul has said
in the past on here, the direction for Oyster seems likely to be a mark
II version which is account based rather than card based.


I would have thought that covering journeys to/from Luton Airport
(not merely Airport Parkway) would be the think to aim for. Since
the shuttle bus is no longer free, without this arriving passengers
will have to find cash to pay for the bus, and only then could they
use their Oyster cards for the rail part of the journey. At present
if they can find the (well-hidden) places to buy rail tickets in the
airport they can buy a through ticket.

There's a prominent machine in baggage reclaim. I agree that there
should be better advertised ones landside (eg at the bus station).

There is a very obvious ticket machine outside right at the bus stop for
the shuttle bus, and the conductor[1] has a ticket machine as well.

[1] Why on earth does it have a conductor when the layovers at each end
are (deliberately) quite long, so there is plenty of time for the driver
to sell tickets? As ISTR you aren't penalised for not buying a through
ticket - the add-on is the same as the bus fare - there is no need for
through rail tickets to be sold on the bus itself.

So it can be done in one transaction, rather than two? (i.e. bus + train)

Also the Super Off-peak tickets including the shuttle bus do offer a saving.

In message , at 11:56:25 on Fri, 10 Oct 2014,
Mizter T remarked:
When the weekend-only Super Off Peak Day Returns [CBA] were introduced
to where I live on what's now Great Northern they were only into London,
but now there's an outward flow as well.

Yes, they must have been introduced not so long ago. Annoying that they
didn't exist in the first place.

I suspect they were to encourage local yokels to go up to London for the
day, rather than give an unexpected discount to tourists visiting
Cambridge from London.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 00:58:57 on Fri,
10 Oct 2014, Theo Markettos
remarked:
It also should be remembered that contactless payment is not an option for
people with non-UK cards (and, for credit control reasons, may continue that
way).

I thought they'd gone a long way to fixing that.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-paym...tless/what-is-
contactless#outside

That's still a UK-centric view of the world. What proportion of issuers in
non-UK countries issue contactless cards at all? And how many are
compatible? For example, if I have a China UnionPay card it won't work in
London (AIUI) - it's not just a question of technology but it's a
stored-value card so would need very different processes?

Theo

On 2014-10-10 11:08:02 +0000, Mizter T said:

No chance, for the many for whom that's not an option. As Paul has said
in the past on here, the direction for Oyster seems likely to be a mark
II version which is account based rather than card based.

Possibly. But I think the banks will start providing far more
contactless pre-paid cards of various types, which will provide a
reasonable alternative. Then no need for TfL to get involved in
handling the money. This might tend more towards 10 years, though.

So it can be done in one transaction, rather than two? (i.e. bus + train)

True, though paying the bus driver doesn't take long, and on a service
with long layovers at both ends doesn't delay anything. Its biggest
problem might I suppose well be people coming out of the airport with
large notes, which I guess is a case for making it free again. I
wonder how profitable it is?

Also the Super Off-peak tickets including the shuttle bus do offer a saving.

I stand corrected, I thought all tickets just had the SDS/SDR/SOR added
on, like PlusBus.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 10/10/2014 13:37, Theo Markettos wrote:

Roland Perry wrote:
[...]
It also should be remembered that contactless payment is not an option for
people with non-UK cards (and, for credit control reasons, may continue that
way).

I thought they'd gone a long way to fixing that.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-paym...tless/what-is-
contactless#outside

That's still a UK-centric view of the world. What proportion of issuers in
non-UK countries issue contactless cards at all? And how many are
compatible? For example, if I have a China UnionPay card it won't work in
London (AIUI) - it's not just a question of technology but it's a
stored-value card so would need very different processes?

The blurb is concerning contactless cards, so that point is irrelevant
in the context of the above page. It does say that some contactless
cards might not work - for Mastercard & Maestro it suggests the
countries where the cards that are more likely not to work are issued.
And it specifically says UnionPay, Diners Club and JCB aren't accepted.

If you're making the more general point that it would be foolish to
assume most visitors (even several years down the line) might have
contactless cards, then I'd absolutely agree with you. There isn't any
suggestion that bank (or similar) payment cards are going to be the only
way to pay in the future - for a whole host of reasons, that'd be
totally unworkable anyway.

On 2014-10-10 12:37:47 +0000, Theo Markettos said:

That's still a UK-centric view of the world. What proportion of issuers in
non-UK countries issue contactless cards at all? And how many are
compatible? For example, if I have a China UnionPay card it won't work in
London (AIUI) - it's not just a question of technology but it's a
stored-value card so would need very different processes?

Here's an idea - how about following places like parts of Germany and
Switzerland, and introducing a tourist tax, providing a free 1-6
Travelcard (and an extra one on the last day) with every hotel night?
Would catch much of this sort of thing. Then the rest could purchase
paper tickets by card?

I don't think it's viable to keep Oyster just for tourists. Nor is a
"tourist tax", either by charging more for tickets or via hotel rooms,
in any way uncommon the world over.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 10/10/2014 13:52, Neil Williams wrote:
On 2014-10-10 11:08:02 +0000, Mizter T said:

No chance, for the many for whom that's not an option. As Paul has
said in the past on here, the direction for Oyster seems likely to be
a mark II version which is account based rather than card based.

Possibly. But I think the banks will start providing far more
contactless pre-paid cards of various types, which will provide a
reasonable alternative. Then no need for TfL to get involved in
handling the money. This might tend more towards 10 years, though.

I don't think so. Contactless cards as they are now are 'subject to
status', basic bank account holders don't get them, nor do some others
with regular accounts. My prepaid contactless card (Orange Cash) doesn't
work on TfL either, for I suggest the same reasons (not me, just that
it's prepaid).

There are those who don't have a bank account, and those who can't get a
bank account.

There are children.

There are overseas visitors, many of whom don't have contactless now and
won't in the future.

Just because it works for you (someone who's financially secure and
eminently bankable), doesn't mean it'll work for everyone.


So it can be done in one transaction, rather than two? (i.e. bus + train)

True, though paying the bus driver doesn't take long, and on a service
with long layovers at both ends doesn't delay anything. Its biggest
problem might I suppose well be people coming out of the airport with
large notes, which I guess is a case for making it free again. I wonder
how profitable it is?

Fair question. Though if it went free, then given Luton Airports
drop-off charge for cars & taxis, it could attract 'freeloading'
passengers who want to get to the airport from a free drop-off point or
v.v. (Yes, the fee can be avoided by going to the mid-term car park &
shuttle bus from there, but the Parkway station forecourt might be more
convenient.)


Also the Super Off-peak tickets including the shuttle bus do offer a
saving.

I stand corrected, I thought all tickets just had the SDS/SDR/SOR added
on, like PlusBus.

Seems to be the case for the other (non-Super) tickets, at least in
terms of singles.

For arriving easyjet passengers heading to central London, I think that
(at least for those sans Railcard) the cheapest option is to buy the
ticket they sell onboard.

On 2014-10-10 13:11:48 +0000, Mizter T said:

Fair question. Though if it went free, then given Luton Airports
drop-off charge for cars & taxis, it could attract 'freeloading'
passengers who want to get to the airport from a free drop-off point or
v.v. (Yes, the fee can be avoided by going to the mid-term car park &
shuttle bus from there, but the Parkway station forecourt might be more
convenient.)

I'm not sure the airport would mind, given that they advertise the
mid-term option (though few take them up on it). It's not just a
profit centre, it's also a way of reducing congestion.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

In message , at 14:11:48 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked:

For arriving easyjet passengers heading to central London, I think that
(at least for those sans Railcard) the cheapest option is to buy the
ticket they sell onboard.

Time to post this from Luton Airport Parkway again:

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/no-easyjet-tickets.jpg

Although (1) they don't sell Easyjet tickets northbound as far as I know
(2) the main point of the picture was an empty platform at
13:54:31 when the train was signed as expected at 13:53,
originally scheduled for 13:51

--
Roland Perry

On 10/10/2014 13:54, Neil Williams wrote:
[...]
Here's an idea - how about following places like parts of Germany and
Switzerland, and introducing a tourist tax, providing a free 1-6
Travelcard (and an extra one on the last day) with every hotel night?
Would catch much of this sort of thing. Then the rest could purchase
paper tickets by card?

I don't think it's viable to keep Oyster just for tourists. Nor is a
"tourist tax", either by charging more for tickets or via hotel rooms,
in any way uncommon the world over.

Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me one
on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London?

Scenario 2: I am an 11 year old child. How do I travel around London?

Scenario 3: I've lost my debit card. How do I travel around London?

etc etc etc

I look forward to the submission of your equal opportunities assessment
statement, and the subsequent defence of the court case. That is, if you
get it past the elected Mayor and assembly first, and all those pesky
MPs too. Good luck!