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Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
In message , at
21:26:15 on Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Arthur Figgis remarked: On 30/03/2015 20:48, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 18:57:41 on Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Arthur Figgis remarked: Indeed; even the TfL website isn't sure exactly which foreign or prepay contactless cards they accept. Isn't that just posterior covering? Most cards will work, but if they said "all", then someone would one day turn up with a People's Republic of Donbass bank card which isn't even recognised by the goat sellers of the Donbass People's Republic, never mind anywhere else. Have you actually looked at what they say? Yes. I rather suspect it is isn't realistic to cover every possibility currently out there in the wild, so "nearly all" is a safe bet; the best is the enemy of the good, 80:20 and all that. Not bothering with contactless because someone might have an obscure (for London) card would seem silly - did ticket machines ever take Canadian dollars or Aruban florins anyway? All American Express contactless payment cards. Hurrah (although I don't know how many of them actually exist) Nearly all MasterCard and Maestro contactless payment cards issued outside the UK are accepted. The majority of cards that aren't accepted are issued in the USA, Canada and the Netherlands. So no details, and pretty insignificant sources of tourists to the UK. There are also a few other cards that may not be accepted. Unspecified, again. If your card is rejected on our services, please contact your card issuer. That's a great help to someone on holiday. Some Visa and V PAY contactless payment cards from countries other than the UK are not accepted for contactless travel on our services. Unspecified Visa expects all its contactless payment cards to be accepted in the near future. We are sat on the edge of our seats. Contactless payment cards issued on other platforms, such as Diners Club, JCB or Union Pay are not accepted. Hard luck. -- Roland Perry |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.Pancras
On 30/03/2015 19:58, Richard wrote: On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 16:35:58 +0100, Mizter T wrote: I haven't come across an issue with UK cards in Paris (either RATP or SNCF machines). They don't take notes though. RATP *used* to be trouble IMX, but now that everyone has an EMV card they are fine. Just as well, as without any complaint on here (well, I suppose this isn't uk.transport.paris) they have closed all/most of their ticket offices as well, as have Barcelona and Madrid. (Not forgetting all those networks where you have to go to the top of a mountain on the Solstice to get the smart card that is then rechargeable in millions of outlets.) :-) Good point re the Paris comparison. What's the situation re RER stations run by RATP (so in the centre), as opposed to SNCF run ones - are there still ticket windows? My guess is that there probably are, but it's a guess. I've found the SNCF Transilien ticket counters at termini stations useful places to buy a carnet - they happily take notes too! Card acceptance in France pre-EMV chip standardisation was definitely hit and miss - learnt the hard way by almost running out of petrol late at night, card not accepted at at least two unmanned filling stations, so we had to wait and strike a deal with a friendly local when they eventually arrived to fill up themselves - lesson learnt! |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.Pancras
On 30/03/2015 20:50, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 17:39:58 on Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Mizter T remarked: The agent at the airport in the case of Stansted Express is StEx itself - they've a counter after customs for arrivals. StEx is just a brand of Abellio GA. Are you sure this is an AGA sales office, and not some sort of travel agent? Almost certain, yes. See: https://www.stanstedexpress.com/about-us/latest-news/2013/01/25/buy-stansted-express-tickets-at-the-airport There's nothing in that announcement which persuades me it's an AGA-staffed operation. Well, if you want to be pedantic (and, come on, you love it!), I didn't say anything about it being "AGA-staffed"! |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.Pancras
On 30/03/2015 21:58, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 21:26:15 on Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Arthur Figgis remarked: [...] Indeed; even the TfL website isn't sure exactly which foreign or prepay contactless cards they accept. Isn't that just posterior covering? Most cards will work, but if they said "all", then someone would one day turn up with a People's Republic of Donbass bank card which isn't even recognised by the goat sellers of the Donbass People's Republic, never mind anywhere else. Have you actually looked at what they say? Yes. I rather suspect it is isn't realistic to cover every possibility currently out there in the wild, so "nearly all" is a safe bet; the best is the enemy of the good, 80:20 and all that. Not bothering with contactless because someone might have an obscure (for London) card would seem silly - did ticket machines ever take Canadian dollars or Aruban florins anyway? All American Express contactless payment cards. Hurrah (although I don't know how many of them actually exist) Nearly all MasterCard and Maestro contactless payment cards issued outside the UK are accepted. The majority of cards that aren't accepted are issued in the USA, Canada and the Netherlands. So no details, and pretty insignificant sources of tourists to the UK. There are also a few other cards that may not be accepted. Unspecified, again. If your card is rejected on our services, please contact your card issuer. That's a great help to someone on holiday. Some Visa and V PAY contactless payment cards from countries other than the UK are not accepted for contactless travel on our services. Unspecified Visa expects all its contactless payment cards to be accepted in the near future. We are sat on the edge of our seats. Contactless payment cards issued on other platforms, such as Diners Club, JCB or Union Pay are not accepted. Hard luck. Might as well just give up then, shut down the transport system, forget about this modern living lark and go back to hunting on the savannah. Though I imagine there'd still be one or two persistent voices around the camp fire complaining long into the night about how things don't work... |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
Roland Perry wrote:
All American Express contactless payment cards. Hurrah (although I don't know how many of them actually exist) Nearly all MasterCard and Maestro contactless payment cards issued outside the UK are accepted. The majority of cards that aren't accepted are issued in the USA, Canada and the Netherlands. So no details, and pretty insignificant sources of tourists to the UK. There are also a few other cards that may not be accepted. Unspecified, again. If your card is rejected on our services, please contact your card issuer. That's a great help to someone on holiday. Some Visa and V PAY contactless payment cards from countries other than the UK are not accepted for contactless travel on our services. Unspecified Visa expects all its contactless payment cards to be accepted in the near future. We are sat on the edge of our seats. Contactless payment cards issued on other platforms, such as Diners Club, JCB or Union Pay are not accepted. Hard luck. I rather think TfL would garner more complaints than praise if they paid staff/contractors to go and acquire contactless cards from every single issuer of the same in every country which issues them or paid holders of every such card to come to London to test their cards. And I doubt they'd get very far by asking for contactless cards, linked to accounts with funds, to be sent to them for test transactions. So I am unclear what you expect or propose that TfL do to provide better guidance. In the meantime it seems to me TfL's guidance is the converse of the way card issuers don't guarantee their contactless cards will be accepted by every reader in every country. -- Robin reply to address is (meant to be) valid |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:02:45 +0100, Mizter T
wrote: What's the situation re RER stations run by RATP (so in the centre), as opposed to SNCF run ones - are there still ticket windows? My guess is that there probably are, but it's a guess. I can't remember... I think I saw one at Etoile. Wikipedia still claims they have ticket offices. But it can be hard to tell, as the staff still have the office to sit in and dispense advice rather than tickets. They'll come out of the office if necessary, I've always found them very helpful. I've found the SNCF Transilien ticket counters at termini stations useful places to buy a carnet - they happily take notes too! Yes, and useful that many people don't realise that the Transilien machines can also sell them and head off for the heaving metro station instead. Useful in a city where after spending millions on a smartcard, a 7-day ticket still has to start on a Monday! Card acceptance in France pre-EMV chip standardisation was definitely hit and miss - learnt the hard way by almost running out of petrol late at night, card not accepted at at least two unmanned filling stations, so we had to wait and strike a deal with a friendly local when they eventually arrived to fill up themselves - lesson learnt! I've had a few moments like that... with the male urge to see if empty really does mean empty, and the last last last petrol station only taking cards. Richard. |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
In message , at 23:22:55 on Mon, 30 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked: Might as well just give up then, shut down the transport system, forget about this modern living lark and go back to hunting on the savannah. Though I imagine there'd still be one or two persistent voices around the camp fire complaining long into the night about how things don't work... It would be interesting to know what it is about the cards which stops them working. A lot of people probably think "contactless" is some sort of 'standard', but clearly it isn't. -- Roland Perry |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
In message , at 23:42:12 on Mon, 30 Mar
2015, Robin remarked: I rather think TfL would garner more complaints than praise if they paid staff/contractors to go and acquire contactless cards from every single issuer of the same in every country which issues them or paid holders of every such card to come to London to test their cards. They should be able to get "test" cards from all the major issuers (who are international organisations so a single point of contact for such an exercise), who have a vested interest in as wide as possible acceptance. And I doubt they'd get very far by asking for contactless cards, linked to accounts with funds, to be sent to them for test transactions. Quite the reverse, I expect the issuers will be testing things like this too, and it's just part of their [considerable] costs for the contactless rollout. And in any event the funds successfully taken from the cards will go straight back to the issuers, as will the unsuccessful cards. So I am unclear what you expect or propose that TfL do to provide better guidance. Under their noses is a crowd-sourced database of cards-which-work. I find it hard to believe they aren't using that. So if they want to know if a particular type of card works, they just trawl through the 60 million card usages they've had in the last six months and see if that card is represented within. In the meantime it seems to me TfL's guidance is the converse of the way card issuers don't guarantee their contactless cards will be accepted by every reader in every country. TfL is hardly "any reader". http://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media...015/march/tfl- named-fastest-growing-contactless-merchant-in-europe -- Roland Perry |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:22:55 +0100
Mizter T wrote: Might as well just give up then, shut down the transport system, forget about this modern living lark and go back to hunting on the savannah. Modern living being people happily allowing TfL to raid their bank accounts so they can have a slightly-slower-an-less-reliable-than-oyster service? Bunch of fecking mugs. Still, you can't educate pork and this city is full of it. Still, no doubt in 10 years time Oyster will be discontinued along with paper tickets and we won't have a choice and can be nicely tracked wherever we go to boot. Though hopefully I'll be well away from this filthy zoo by then. -- Spud |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
Roland Perry wrote:
They should be able to get "test" cards from all the major issuers (who are international organisations so a single point of contact for such an exercise), who have a vested interest in as wide as possible acceptance. When was the issue of cards centralised? Last I heard the standards were agreed internationally but individual banks etc. remain responsible for issuing the cards using any of a range of hardware (or agents with different hardware) from different vendors. And I doubt they'd get very far by asking for contactless cards, linked to accounts with funds, to be sent to them for test transactions. Quite the reverse, I expect the issuers will be testing things like this too, and it's just part of their [considerable] costs for the contactless rollout. And in any event the funds successfully taken from the cards will go straight back to the issuers, as will the unsuccessful cards. I take it by issuers you mean Visa, Mastercard and American Express. If so, I am unclear how that gets TfL any further forward in dealing with departures from their standards. Or different standards. (Eg what about Interac? AIUI most Canadian banks etc used a different contactless system in Interac Flash. Your comment about TfL's guidance auggests to me you think TfL ought to do more. I am not clear what - bearing in mind that not all cards issued in Canada are Interac.) So I am unclear what you expect or propose that TfL do to provide better guidance. Under their noses is a crowd-sourced database of cards-which-work. I find it hard to believe they aren't using that. So if they want to know if a particular type of card works, they just trawl through the 60 million card usages they've had in the last six months and see if that card is represented within. I don't see how that gives TfL information about cards which could not be read. In the meantime it seems to me TfL's guidance is the converse of the way card issuers don't guarantee their contactless cards will be accepted by every reader in every country. TfL is hardly "any reader". Indeed. So TfL is at more than average risk of reputational damage if it gives blanket assurances to users that cards will work and it turns out some don't; and more than average risk of complaints from issuers if it suggests that (all) cards from some particular countries, Banks etc won't work when some (or all) do. -- Robin reply to address is (meant to be) valid |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
On 2015-03-30 15:46:47 +0000, Matthew Dickinson said:
SWT and London Midland have recently withdrawn Oyster at their ticket windows, so they can't value any commission that much. Possibly confirmation that Oyster is going to become much more niche - only really for those of limited means, tourists and children, as everyone else will use contactless instead. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
On 2015-03-30 22:43:54 +0000, Richard said:
I've had a few moments like that... with the male urge to see if empty really does mean empty, and the last last last petrol station only taking cards. The one at Milan Linate airport (just outside) doesn't take UK cards and doesn't give change...right nuisance when bringing a hire car back. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
On 2015-03-30 16:39:58 +0000, Mizter T said:
Do you remember Neil Williams asking FCC about their sales desk at Luton Airport, and getting a response from an FCC CS rep saying they knew nothing about it - of course it turned out that CS department simply weren't clued up about it and it was an FCC operation after all! Yes, I remember that with some amusement. I bet they forgot their TVM in the baggage hall, too (used that a few times). Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
In message , at 11:23:13 on Tue, 31
Mar 2015, Roland Perry remarked: [1] Hidden rather a long way down the list of what does and doesn't work, they suddenly introduce the concept of 'pre-pay' cards. Pre-paid cards If you have a prepaid card (issued in the UK or outside the UK), it may be accepted for travel on our services. Contact your card issuer for more information And I should have added that this aspect is much more important for tourists, because they are aggressively marketed pre-paid cards by various Bureau-de-Change as a means of delivering "foreign" (to them) currency such as pounds. It would be a great disappointment if perhaps the first time they wanted to use such a card on arrival in the UK (to travel on TfL) that it didn't work. This, and other, newsgroups commonly have people moaning about the lack of acceptance of UK cards by Dutch TVMs, for example. -- Roland Perry |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
In message , at 11:39:11 on Tue, 31
Mar 2015, Neil Williams remarked: SWT and London Midland have recently withdrawn Oyster at their ticket windows, so they can't value any commission that much. Possibly confirmation that Oyster is going to become much more niche - only really for those of limited means, tourists and children, as everyone else will use contactless instead. What about commuters in London? Will they all migrate their in-boundary Travelcards to ITSO, or is there a plan to link them to a contactless card, and have it work throughout the Travelcard-valid estate? -- Roland Perry |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
On 2015-03-30 22:22:55 +0000, Mizter T said:
Might as well just give up then, shut down the transport system, forget about this modern living lark and go back to hunting on the savannah. I thought goat ownership was the solution? :) Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.
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Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
In message , at 23:16:35 on Mon, 30 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked: The agent at the airport in the case of Stansted Express is StEx itself - they've a counter after customs for arrivals. StEx is just a brand of Abellio GA. Are you sure this is an AGA sales office, and not some sort of travel agent? Almost certain, yes. See: https://www.stanstedexpress.com/about-us/latest-news/2013/01/25/buy-stansted-express-tickets-at-the-airport There's nothing in that announcement which persuades me it's an AGA-staffed operation. Well, if you want to be pedantic (and, come on, you love it!), I didn't say anything about it being "AGA-staffed"! So what are you claiming then - that it's an AGA "owned" booth with airport-handling-agency staff inside? I recall getting no-where with the KLM ticket desk at Birmingham Airport, where the KLM-uniformed staff eventually said "you'll have to take that up with KLM, we don't work for them..." -- Roland Perry |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.
On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 11:52:32 +0100
Neil Williams wrote: On 2015-03-31 08:33:57 +0000, d said: Modern living being people happily allowing TfL to raid their bank accounts so they can have a slightly-slower-an-less-reliable-than-oyster service? Or not having to lend TfL a load of money on a topped-up Oyster for occasional use, instead being able simply to use your card? There is that. However I'd sooner lend TfL a tenner than have the chance of my bank account details going walkies or being cleaned out because of a bug or hack of the paywave system. Plus I like being anonymous while I travel. My oyster was paid for in cash and its topped up in cash and until face recognition is good enough that we can be tracked by face alone I like being able to travel without the possibility of anyone knowing where I'm going or have been unless I want them to. -- Spud |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.Pancras
On 31/03/2015 12:20, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 23:16:35 on Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Mizter T remarked: The agent at the airport in the case of Stansted Express is StEx itself - they've a counter after customs for arrivals. StEx is just a brand of Abellio GA. Are you sure this is an AGA sales office, and not some sort of travel agent? Almost certain, yes. See: https://www.stanstedexpress.com/about-us/latest-news/2013/01/25/buy-stansted-express-tickets-at-the-airport There's nothing in that announcement which persuades me it's an AGA-staffed operation. Well, if you want to be pedantic (and, come on, you love it!), I didn't say anything about it being "AGA-staffed"! So what are you claiming then - that it's an AGA "owned" booth with airport-handling-agency staff inside? I'll turn that around and ask 'what are you claiming'? |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.Pancras
On 31/03/2015 07:49, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 23:22:55 on Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Mizter T remarked: Might as well just give up then, shut down the transport system, forget about this modern living lark and go back to hunting on the savannah. Though I imagine there'd still be one or two persistent voices around the camp fire complaining long into the night about how things don't work... It would be interesting to know what it is about the cards which stops them working. A lot of people probably think "contactless" is some sort of 'standard', but clearly it isn't. EMV contactless is a standard. But come on, you know about standards... FWIW, you can knock yourself out reading "the EMV Contactless Specifications for Payment Systems" he http://www.emvco.com/specifications.aspx?id=21 |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.
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Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
In message , at 14:02:41 on Tue, 31 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked: The agent at the airport in the case of Stansted Express is StEx itself - they've a counter after customs for arrivals. StEx is just a brand of Abellio GA. Are you sure this is an AGA sales office, and not some sort of travel agent? Almost certain, yes. See: https://www.stanstedexpress.com/about-us/latest-news/2013/01/25/buy-stansted-express-tickets-at-the-airport There's nothing in that announcement which persuades me it's an AGA-staffed operation. Well, if you want to be pedantic (and, come on, you love it!), I didn't say anything about it being "AGA-staffed"! So what are you claiming then - that it's an AGA "owned" booth with airport-handling-agency staff inside? I'll turn that around and ask 'what are you claiming'? I'm claiming I can't see any evidence it's anything other than a travel agency franchise. -- Roland Perry |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
In message , at 14:05:40 on Tue, 31 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked: It would be interesting to know what it is about the cards which stops them working. A lot of people probably think "contactless" is some sort of 'standard', but clearly it isn't. EMV contactless is a standard. But come on, you know about standards... There doesn't seem to be nearly as much of an interoperability issue with the magstripes on cards, or the C&P (where they have one). -- Roland Perry |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.Pancras
On 31/03/2015 11:42, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:23:13 on Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Roland Perry remarked: [1] Hidden rather a long way down the list of what does and doesn't work, they suddenly introduce the concept of 'pre-pay' cards. Pre-paid cards If you have a prepaid card (issued in the UK or outside the UK), it may be accepted for travel on our services. Contact your card issuer for more information And I should have added that this aspect is much more important for tourists, because they are aggressively marketed pre-paid cards by various Bureau-de-Change as a means of delivering "foreign" (to them) currency such as pounds. It would be a great disappointment if perhaps the first time they wanted to use such a card on arrival in the UK (to travel on TfL) that it didn't work. This, and other, newsgroups commonly have people moaning about the lack of acceptance of UK cards by Dutch TVMs, for example. I don't think pre-paid cards issued for the travel market feature contactless (those issued either here or abroad). Bear in mind the revenue risk for an issuer. But by all means show me whatever examples there are out there. (I have looked and not found any - and remember the 'pre-paid card issue' is a significant part of your argument as per above.) |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.
In message , at 14:11:14 on Tue, 31 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked: Given the back office processing, issues such as the OSI max journey time-out that you could encounter with Oyster (where processing happens 'on the card') don't crop up, at least AFAIAA (I haven't tried testing it to destruction yet). Isn't part of the max-journey-time and max-OSI-time to do with revenue prevention (not just fraud, but also making sure that a round trip gets counted as two fares and not one). -- Roland Perry |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.Pancras
On 30/03/2015 23:43, Richard wrote: On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:02:45 +0100, Mizter T wrote: What's the situation re RER stations run by RATP (so in the centre), as opposed to SNCF run ones - are there still ticket windows? My guess is that there probably are, but it's a guess. I can't remember... I think I saw one at Etoile. Wikipedia still claims they have ticket offices. But it can be hard to tell, as the staff still have the office to sit in and dispense advice rather than tickets. They'll come out of the office if necessary, I've always found them very helpful. I've found the SNCF Transilien ticket counters at termini stations useful places to buy a carnet - they happily take notes too! Yes, and useful that many people don't realise that the Transilien machines can also sell them and head off for the heaving metro station instead. Useful in a city where after spending millions on a smartcard, a 7-day ticket still has to start on a Monday! Agreed, I always suggest people head for the Transilien machines - most just head for the Metro ones (just like in London I suggest that, if folk have an Oyster they wish to top-up, they should head for an NR machine rather than a Tube one at a London termini). Worth noting we do now have a slight mirror of the (nee Carte Orange, now Navigo) weekly ticket situation - contactless weekly capping runs on a Monday to Sunday window (not sure that doing it in any other way would be sensible though - K.I.S.S. and all that). Card acceptance in France pre-EMV chip standardisation was definitely hit and miss - learnt the hard way by almost running out of petrol late at night, card not accepted at at least two unmanned filling stations, so we had to wait and strike a deal with a friendly local when they eventually arrived to fill up themselves - lesson learnt! I've had a few moments like that... with the male urge to see if empty really does mean empty, and the last last last petrol station only taking cards. To bring things back on topic, I ran out of petrol in an operating London bus lane once. Embarrassing. Thankfully it was the middle of the day and I didn't end up causing some massive traffic jam. Got a letter with nice colour video still and a demand for money a week or so later from a London borough. (FWIW, twas a friend's car - he casually told me that the fuel gauge was a "tad inaccurate" - alas that wasn't an entirely fair representation of the actualité!) The nearest petrol station that I headed to on foot with my can had, of course, recently closed and become a hand car wash... |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.Pancras
On 31/03/2015 14:15, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 14:05:40 on Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Mizter T remarked: It would be interesting to know what it is about the cards which stops them working. A lot of people probably think "contactless" is some sort of 'standard', but clearly it isn't. EMV contactless is a standard. But come on, you know about standards... There doesn't seem to be nearly as much of an interoperability issue with the magstripes on cards, or the C&P (where they have one). My limited understanding is that there have been different generations of issues of contactless cards - in the future, as old cards expire and new cards issued to the latest specifications, then most if not all EMV contactless cards should work for 'transit applications' such as that of TfL. (I think I recall reading about the possibility of a small writeable space on contactless cards of the future too, one that could be used by transit applications.) |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.
On 31/03/2015 14:19, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 14:11:14 on Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Mizter T remarked: Given the back office processing, issues such as the OSI max journey time-out that you could encounter with Oyster (where processing happens 'on the card') don't crop up, at least AFAIAA (I haven't tried testing it to destruction yet). Isn't part of the max-journey-time and max-OSI-time to do with revenue prevention (not just fraud, but also making sure that a round trip gets counted as two fares and not one). Yes, but if you're making a longer journey, or two separate journeys (the distinction being in the eye of the passenger) - then if your break outside a paid zone (for instance outside the barriers at a London termini, between an NR and Tube journey) is short enough to qualify as an OSI (the time allowance can be quite generous), and the total journey time from point A to point C (point B being where the OSI occurs) busts the specified max journey time (which depends on number of zones passed through, time of day and day of week), then with Oyster you can end up with a max fare for an unfinished journey (the one that timed out en route to point C) and a max fare for exiting at point C without having touched-in - at least that's how the Oyster card and validators interpret it. What I'm suggesting is that the back office logic that processes contactless fares should work it all out and either break them into two separately charged fares, or else charge it as one fare (I don't know which it does, I shall endeavour to experiment and find out). |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
On 2015-03-31 10:44:56 +0000, Roland Perry said:
What about commuters in London? Will they all migrate their in-boundary Travelcards to ITSO, or is there a plan to link them to a contactless card, and have it work throughout the Travelcard-valid estate? With monthly capping (and perhaps a move to longer-term capping), who needs a Travelcard? Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.Pancras
On 31/03/2015 15:14, Neil Williams wrote: On 2015-03-31 10:44:56 +0000, Roland Perry said: What about commuters in London? Will they all migrate their in-boundary Travelcards to ITSO, or is there a plan to link them to a contactless card, and have it work throughout the Travelcard-valid estate? With monthly capping (and perhaps a move to longer-term capping), who needs a Travelcard? Someone who wants their month to not start on the 1st (as monthly capping might be implemented), or wants an odd-period Travelcard, or wants to just buy their travel in one go (poss related to a loan from an employer, or just the way they wish to budget for things). |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
In message , at 14:18:33 on Tue, 31 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked: On 31/03/2015 11:42, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:23:13 on Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Roland Perry remarked: [1] Hidden rather a long way down the list of what does and doesn't work, they suddenly introduce the concept of 'pre-pay' cards. Pre-paid cards If you have a prepaid card (issued in the UK or outside the UK), it may be accepted for travel on our services. Contact your card issuer for more information And I should have added that this aspect is much more important for tourists, because they are aggressively marketed pre-paid cards by various Bureau-de-Change as a means of delivering "foreign" (to them) currency such as pounds. It would be a great disappointment if perhaps the first time they wanted to use such a card on arrival in the UK (to travel on TfL) that it didn't work. This, and other, newsgroups commonly have people moaning about the lack of acceptance of UK cards by Dutch TVMs, for example. I don't think pre-paid cards issued for the travel market feature contactless (those issued either here or abroad). Bear in mind the revenue risk for an issuer. The risk is more for the merchant, because unless they are online you get a Solo/Electron issue of not knowing if the card has sufficient funds. Although it's not costing TfL any actual cash to transport someone around for a day, and if the overnight processing reveals that the card is bust or stolen, then block it from use the next day. But by all means show me whatever examples there are out there. My daughter is using my Orange Cash card (which is contactless) as travel money at the moment; but it has the disadvantage of being in pounds, not Euros. So there's a 2.75% fee. (I have looked and not found any - and remember the 'pre-paid card issue' is a significant part of your argument as per above.) It's a part that I've highlighted because this thread features foreigners arriving at Kings Cross/StP. -- Roland Perry |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.Pancras
On 31/03/2015 11:39, Neil Williams wrote: On 2015-03-30 15:46:47 +0000, Matthew Dickinson said: SWT and London Midland have recently withdrawn Oyster at their ticket windows, so they can't value any commission that much. Possibly confirmation that Oyster is going to become much more niche [...] Not really. LM offered Oyster at ticket windows at Watford Junction, and poss at Euston? Nowhere else. SWT only offered Oyster at ticket windows at a few stations such as Richmond and Wimbledon - it was never anything near approaching universal. I've read one suggestion that SWT's change might have been because new ITSO compatible kit (for use with SEFT) that they're obliged to support doesn't also support Oyster. only really for those of limited means, tourists and children, as everyone else will use contactless instead. I don't think a separate card for travel only (Oyster, or an Oyster v2) is ever going to be that niche a concept. |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
Mizter T wrote:
On 30/03/2015 11:13, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:25:09 on Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Theo Markettos remarked: I always assume that things being sold on trains, aeroplanes and in baggage reclaim halls are sold to a captive audience at some massive markup. I don't think that's true of these kinds of tickets, at least for the first two, and many of the permanent booths at airports. The prices are more likely to be published in advance, for you to get the correct amount of change, etc. I agree with that - for the UK at least. Yes, but if you go to Heathrow you might find Heathrow Express is promoted a wee bit more than the Piccadilly Line. Likewise in other places they may heavily promote one method over another - be it 'express' trains over the local bus/train that's almost as quick (cf Gatwick Express v Southern/FCC), shuttle minibuses over the subway, or a maglev that only goes half the way (though that was worth doing once as a tourist attraction). After all Ryanair offering me a transfer to central London are not doing it out of the goodness of their heart, They'll be getting a commission, but not necessarily any more than an agent at the airport who also has to fund extra staff and premises. The agent at the airport in the case of Stansted Express is StEx itself - they've a counter after customs for arrivals. That doesn't nullify your point at all though - as a 'city transfer' operator getting the airlines to do some of the selling for you is a plus, with the bonus that even if people don't buy on board they might have been familiarised with your name, or at least with the options available to them. They never present you with a table of options though, it's always 'travel brand, the superlative way to the city". The best I found was an airport with three different bus lines with three different durations and prices - at least there was a list. and I'd probably end up with an First Anytime Return on Terravision to Irkutsk Broadway when actually I could get a Network Card super-offpeak to Liverpool St instead. Apart from a CDR, the only tickets on that flow are Anytimes. There's GroupSave, which could be useful, and isn't sold by the airlines. (There's first class too - ditto. The WebDuo and Business Plus fares don't count in this instance as they're only available online, not from the ticket office.) Who says I want to go to city centre station, or that I'm not buying a child/senior/soldier/goat ticket instead? Tickets sold this way are inevitably one-size-fits-all, and frequently it doesn't. The flip side is places where the airport is just another stop on the public transport network and tickets are available from every friendly neighbourhood kiosk - of which there isn't at the airport. (See also cashless TfL buses at Heathrow) Indeed; even the TfL website isn't sure exactly which foreign or prepay contactless cards they accept. It's because they don't know - some work and some don't, it really does depend. A customer could ask their bank of course, but I wouldn't rely on them getting the correct answer. For the record, I went to a TfL station in December and discovered I'd forgotten my Oyster. Of the three UK contactless cards in my pocket, only one worked. None of them were anything out of the ordinary. The alternative would be for TfL to simply bar all non-UK contactless payment cards, even though the majority would probably work. What would a hypothetical Mr R. Perry, head of TfL ticketing, do? (Bear in mind that 'head of ticketing' is not the same thing as the Commissioner for Transport, the Mayor, the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the SoS for Transport!) TfL ticketing is just complicated, that's the fact of the matter. Whether it's 'too' complicated, I don't know. However it isn't designed to be friendly to visitors, at least visitors who want to understand what's going on rather than just throwing money at TfL and hoping for the best. Theo |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
One of t
On Tuesday, 31 March 2015 11:47:48 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:39:11 on Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Neil Williams remarked: SWT and London Midland have recently withdrawn Oyster at their ticket windows, so they can't value any commission that much. Possibly confirmation that Oyster is going to become much more niche - only really for those of limited means, tourists and children, as everyone else will use contactless instead. What about commuters in London? Will they all migrate their in-boundary Travelcards to ITSO, or is there a plan to link them to a contactless card, and have it work throughout the Travelcard-valid estate? -- Roland Perry One of the next stages of TfL's Future Ticketing Program is to allow in-boundary Travelcards to be loaded onto the contactless back office (presumably this will include TfL's proposed EMV closed loop Oyster replacement). |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
In message , at 16:25:47 on Tue,
31 Mar 2015, Theo Markettos remarked: TfL ticketing is just complicated, that's the fact of the matter. Whether it's 'too' complicated, I don't know. However it isn't designed to be friendly to visitors, at least visitors who want to understand what's going on rather than just throwing money at TfL and hoping for the best. Often the best thing to do in a strange city is buy the equivalent of an all-zone[1] travelcard, and go off and enjoy your holiday knowing you'll be able to travel around without any hassle (or further payment). [1] fsvo "all"; best if it's the subset you can live with. -- Roland Perry |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
In message , at
08:46:13 on Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Matthew Dickinson remarked: SWT and London Midland have recently withdrawn Oyster at their ticket windows, so they can't value any commission that much. Possibly confirmation that Oyster is going to become much more niche - only really for those of limited means, tourists and children, as everyone else will use contactless instead. What about commuters in London? Will they all migrate their in-boundary Travelcards to ITSO, or is there a plan to link them to a contactless card, and have it work throughout the Travelcard-valid estate? One of the next stages of TfL's Future Ticketing Program is to allow in-boundary Travelcards to be loaded onto the contactless back office That's logical. Meanwhile those of us deciding whether or not to buy outboundary travelcards have a complex matrix of decisions based on how much out particular TOC marks up (or discounts) the price when added to a London Terminals Ticket, and how that all shifts around when buying off-peak, or with a railcard discount, and also attempting to predict whether one will hit any of the caps is travelling ad-hoc. If they can stick *all* of that into the contactless system and guarantee to offer the best deal from the numerous potential combinations, that would be great. But how the ordinary traveller is supposed to audit that, I have no idea. And they haven't got a clean track record so far with Oyster capping, where all they promise[1] turns out to be to cap to the cheapest Travelcard that would once upon a time have been available for purchase, and not try to work out if a slightly cheaper travelcard plus one single from that card's boundary, might have worked out less expensive. They've perhaps wormed their way out of that corner now by pretty much having a flat fare for all paper day travelacrds. [1] Mizter T can correct me if I'm wrong. -- Roland Perry |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.
On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 14:11:14 +0100
Mizter T wrote: I doubt you've used it - works very well, it is ever-so-slightly-slower to read the card but I don't know where you get the less reliable bit from. I've seen on a number of occasions cards not work and the person has to try a second or 3rd time. And it wasn't a card clash issue either. Still, no doubt in 10 years time Oyster will be discontinued along with paper tickets and we won't have a choice and can be nicely tracked wherever we go to boot. Though hopefully I'll be well away from this filthy zoo by then. Likely still ranting into cyberspace about everything and anything. You never know. -- Spud |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St.Pancras
On 31/03/2015 17:08, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:46:13 on Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Matthew Dickinson remarked: SWT and London Midland have recently withdrawn Oyster at their ticket windows, so they can't value any commission that much. Possibly confirmation that Oyster is going to become much more niche - only really for those of limited means, tourists and children, as everyone else will use contactless instead. What about commuters in London? Will they all migrate their in-boundary Travelcards to ITSO, or is there a plan to link them to a contactless card, and have it work throughout the Travelcard-valid estate? One of the next stages of TfL's Future Ticketing Program is to allow in-boundary Travelcards to be loaded onto the contactless back office That's logical. Meanwhile those of us deciding whether or not to buy outboundary travelcards have a complex matrix of decisions based on how much out particular TOC marks up (or discounts) the price when added to a London Terminals Ticket, and how that all shifts around when buying off-peak, or with a railcard discount, and also attempting to predict whether one will hit any of the caps is travelling ad-hoc. If they can stick *all* of that into the contactless system and guarantee to offer the best deal from the numerous potential combinations, that would be great. But how the ordinary traveller is supposed to audit that, I have no idea. Ha, well I can't really see the above happening! And they haven't got a clean track record so far with Oyster capping, where all they promise[1] turns out to be to cap to the cheapest Travelcard that would once upon a time have been available for purchase, and not try to work out if a slightly cheaper travelcard plus one single from that card's boundary, might have worked out less expensive. They've perhaps wormed their way out of that corner now by pretty much having a flat fare for all paper day travelacrds. [1] Mizter T can correct me if I'm wrong. You are wrong, sorry! If you do enough journeys within say zones 1&2 to reach a cap, and then make a journey out to zone 6 (e.g. last day being a tourist in London then out to Heathrow), you'll be capped for z1&2 and then pay a z3-z6 journey on top. Since Jan 2015 things are a bit simpler (though I don't approve coz it's much more expensive for some) - there's now one daily cap for Tube/rail, rather than peak and off-peak caps. |
Chaos likely when they close ticket windows at King's Cross St. Pancras
In message , at 18:51:18 on Tue, 31 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked: And they haven't got a clean track record so far with Oyster capping, where all they promise[1] turns out to be to cap to the cheapest Travelcard that would once upon a time have been available for purchase, and not try to work out if a slightly cheaper travelcard plus one single from that card's boundary, might have worked out less expensive. They've perhaps wormed their way out of that corner now by pretty much having a flat fare for all paper day travelacrds. [1] Mizter T can correct me if I'm wrong. You are wrong, sorry! If you do enough journeys within say zones 1&2 to reach a cap, and then make a journey out to zone 6 (e.g. last day being a tourist in London then out to Heathrow), you'll be capped for z1&2 and then pay a z3-z6 journey on top. My impression was that they'd charge you for a Z1-6 travelcard. -- Roland Perry |
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