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How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
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How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On Wednesday, 8 July 2015 17:36:23 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...-striking.html They're paid massively better than many. But of course its also Wimbledon Final, and the sun is shining. CJB. |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
CJB wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 July 2015 17:36:23 UTC+1, Recliner wrote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...-striking.html They're paid massively better than many. But of course its also Wimbledon Final, and the sun is shining. CJB. The finals aren't till the weekend. |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 16:34:56 +0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...-striking.html "No one is fooled by the mayor's spin that this is primarily about pay. There is big concern that in stations outside central London, night tubes will be stopping at stations that will have no minimum staffing levels - which could mean just one member of staff dealing with the public coming home after a late night out. This is a safety nightmare and clearly not good for these staff or the public. […]" http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/tube_...ayor_must_talk |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 16:54:23 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen
wrote: On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 16:34:56 +0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...-striking.html "No one is fooled by the mayor's spin that this is primarily about pay. There is big concern that in stations outside central London, night tubes will be stopping at stations that will have no minimum staffing levels - which could mean just one member of staff dealing with the public coming home after a late night out. This is a safety nightmare and clearly not good for these staff or the public. […]" http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/tube_...ayor_must_talk How is that any different to what already happens when the last tubes arrive at suburban stations at around 1am? And what's the betting that the demands resolve, as they usually do, into more money? |
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do the other members of staff earn? |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
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How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
Robin9 wrote:
'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: ;149283']http://tinyurl.com/nf6grll I heard that all LU workers were on strike, not just the train drivers. How much do the other members of staff earn? Perhaps you didn't actually read the linked article? It said, "Tube drivers are also much better paid than some of their other colleagues who'll be joining them on strike. Station staff get around £30,000, according to TfI, with others closer to £20,000, while supervisors earn around £40,000 - still markedly less than what tube drivers get." |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On 2015\07\09 21:03, Paul Cummins wrote:
In article , (Recliner) wrote: How is that any different to what already happens when the last tubes arrive at suburban stations at around 1am? Or even when main line trains arrive at unmanned stations at any point. I don't see how station staff can be assaulted at an unmanned station. |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 16:03:22 +0100
Recliner wrote: On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 16:54:23 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote: On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 16:34:56 +0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...blog/11725850/ ow-well-off-are-Londons-tube-drivers-and-why-are-they-striking.html "No one is fooled by the mayor's spin that this is primarily about pay. There is big concern that in stations outside central London, night tubes will be stopping at stations that will have no minimum staffing levels - which could mean just one member of staff dealing with the public coming home after a late night out. This is a safety nightmare and clearly not good for these staff or the public. […]" http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/tube_...ayor_must_talk How is that any different to what already happens when the last tubes arrive at suburban stations at around 1am? Or on the DLR. LU won't understaff the stations because they know damn sure people will probably just jump over the barriers if they think no one is watching. And what's the betting that the demands resolve, as they usually do, into more money? Guaranteed. -- Spud |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On Thu, Jul 09, 2015 at 04:54:23PM +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote:
" night tubes will be stopping at stations that will have no minimum staffing levels - which could mean just one member of staff ... " At least the union has stopped telling lies about unstaffed stations. Progress! -- David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age Us Germans take our humour very seriously -- German cultural attache talking to the Today Programme, about the German supposed lack of a sense of humour, 29 Aug 2001 |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On Wednesday, July 8, 2015 at 5:36:23 PM UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...-striking.html At least with no trains the drivers are unable to assault passengers like they do every day by closing the doors on those still trying to get on or off. I'm not talking about the idiot passengers who try and get on / off trains at the very last minute. How many times have I seen a woman with a kid in a pushchair sandwiched between two closing doors? Quite a few. How many times have passengers been killed due to trapped clothing in the doors - quite a few. Remember the old lady killed as she was dragged down the platform at Hounslow a few years ago. And there have been other instances. Numerous complaints to management about drivers not checking the CCTV monitors, closing the doors, and moving off without notice, are always replied to in the vein of 'we have no problems with the issues you mention.' But then with drivers getting 60 grand and supervisors likely less than half that the drivers are well out of control. Their strike is one solely based upon greed. And of course its summer. SB |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
y wrote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...blog/11725850/ ow-well-off-are-Londons-tube-drivers-and-why-are-they-striking.html "No one is fooled by the mayor's spin that this is primarily about pay. There is big concern that in stations outside central London, night tubes will be stopping at stations that will have no minimum staffing levels - which could mean just one member of staff dealing with the public coming home after a late night out. This is a safety nightmare and clearly not good for these staff or the public. […]" http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/tube_...ayor_must_talk How is that any different to what already happens when the last tubes arrive at suburban stations at around 1am? Or on the DLR. LU won't understaff the stations because they know damn sure people will probably just jump over the barriers if they think no one is watching. If the station was unstaffed the barriers would be open anyway. Peter Smyth |
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So, most other members of staff earn far less than train drivers. Why then is all the attention on drivers' earnings and none on the £20,000 or so earned by the unspecified "others? Is this that famous politics-of-envy I keep hearing about? |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
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How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
Paul Cummins wrote:
In article , (Basil Jet) wrote: How is that any different to what already happens when the last tubes arrive at suburban stations at around 1am? Or even when main line trains arrive at unmanned stations at any point. I don't see how station staff can be assaulted at an unmanned station. I think the safety claim is not the staff, but the passengers... Why would they be any less safe than on the many night buses that run every night, mainly without incident? In any case, surely no-one believes that the unions actually care about passenger safety? They're after more money for their members, that's all. And if they do care about anyone's safety, it's their members', not the customers'. |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 21:14:05 +0200, Robin9
wrote: 'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: ;149299']Robin9 wrote:- 'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: - ;149283']http://tinyurl.com/nf6grll- I heard that all LU workers were on strike, not just the train drivers. How much do the other members of staff earn?- Perhaps you didn't actually read the linked article? It said, "Tube drivers are also much better paid than some of their other colleagues who'll be joining them on strike. Station staff get around £30,000, according to TfI, with others closer to £20,000, while supervisors earn around £40,000 - still markedly less than what tube drivers get." No, I didn't read the linked article. I rarely follow links. So, most other members of staff earn far less than train drivers. Why then is all the attention on drivers' earnings and none on the £20,000 or so earned by the unspecified "others? Is this that famous politics-of-envy I keep hearing about? People think Tube drivers are very overpaid for the jobs they do. They don't think the other staff are. And yet it's most often the drivers who go on strike. Compare Tube drivers with bus drivers. By almost any measure, the latter have a much more difficult job, and yet they earn much less. Also, operating Tube trains is getting easier and easier, as the trains get more automated, and yet that de-skilling hasn't resulted in lower Tube driver pay. |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
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How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
Paul Cummins wrote:
In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote: If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to "pressing a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of then a genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be warranted. all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube, after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane. And that really can be reduced to "press a button" I see it takes about six months of training; not trivial, but a lot less than a professional pilot. From https://www.how2become.com/careers/l...-train-driver/ Becoming a London Underground train driver requires that you have numerous qualifications. Most are preliminary qualifications prior to any specific training regime required to drive a train. Here is a list of qualifications that you will need to have. First, you need to be at least 21 years of age to start training to be a train driver with any entity other than London Underground. In addition, you will need to have good GCSE grades to show that you have a good standard of education. While there are really no formal education requirements to enter this field, having A Level grades will appeal to the organisation. You will also need to present your formal application to the company and then attend a formal training centre. Here, you will sit several aptitude tests, which will assess your skills, knowledge and proficiency in many different areas. You will also need to pass a physical examination, an eyesight examination and drug tests. In general, becoming a London Underground train driver will require that you undergo 22 weeks of training. However, if you opt to train outside of London Underground, you might have to sit through 48 weeks of training. London Underground has some of the lowest training requirements in the industry for potential drivers. Your training will be multifaceted, and will cover hands-on driver training with an instructor, driving theory and safety training. You will have to complete a Personal Track Safety Certificate, as well as an NVQ Level 2 in Rail Transport Operations (Driving) before your training is complete. You will also need to be familiar with the rules and guidelines of working on the railroad. |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On Saturday, 11 July 2015 20:31:36 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
Paul Cummins wrote: In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote: If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to "pressing a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of then a genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be warranted. all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube, after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane. And that really can be reduced to "press a button" I see it takes about six months of training; not trivial, but a lot less than a professional pilot. From https://www.how2become.com/careers/l...-train-driver/ [snip Internet hearsay] I don't really understand your point, or the relevance of pilots, or why you copy+pasted all of that from some random site (a link would have been enough!) You're ranting on about drivers even after it's been pointed out that it's been an age since ASLEF have gone on strike. That's why this strike resulted in a shutdown rather than the minuscule service that's happened a few times over the last few years. You can run some service when you have reduced staff of different types, but when they all have a grievance they agree on... I don't work on the Underground, but if you're so jealous of people who do (that's surely what it comes down to?) there's surely an easy way to get on the button-pushing gravy train yourself? Apply! It's really odd how if you work in a bank in the City you're creating wealth for the nation, but not if you're someone transporting thousands of them to their office. |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On Saturday, 11 July 2015 21:37:00 UTC+1, Robin9 wrote:
'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: ;149316']On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 21:14:05 +0200, Robin9 wrote: - 'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: - ;149299']Robin9 wrote:- 'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: - ;149283']http://tinyurl.com/nf6grll- I heard that all LU workers were on strike, not just the train drivers. How much do the other members of staff earn?- Perhaps you didn't actually read the linked article? It said, "Tube drivers are also much better paid than some of their other colleagues who'll be joining them on strike. Station staff get around £30,000, according to TfI, with others closer to £20,000, while supervisors earn around £40,000 - still markedly less than what tube drivers get."- No, I didn't read the linked article. I rarely follow links. So, most other members of staff earn far less than train drivers. Why then is all the attention on drivers' earnings and none on the �20,000 or so earned by the unspecified "others? Is this that famous politics-of-envy I keep hearing about?- People think Tube drivers are very overpaid for the jobs they do. They don't think the other staff are. And yet it's most often the drivers who go on strike. Compare Tube drivers with bus drivers. By almost any measure, the latter have a much more difficult job, and yet they earn much less. Also, operating Tube trains is getting easier and easier, as the trains get more automated, and yet that de-skilling hasn't resulted in lower Tube driver pay. It isn't tube workers' fault that bus drivers are under-paid, and there is no reason tube workers should take a pay cut in sympathy. It really does sound like the politics-of-envy: ordinary working people daring to earn good money! Outrageous! Exactly! "I have no power and am completely at the whim of my bosses, but instead of wanting better for everyone I want everyone to be like me". Complete race to the bottom. How that became excepted wisdom I've no idea, but it's incredibly depressing. |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
Mark wrote:
On Saturday, 11 July 2015 20:31:36 UTC+1, Recliner wrote: Paul Cummins wrote: In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote: If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to "pressing a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of then a genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be warranted. all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube, after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane. And that really can be reduced to "press a button" I see it takes about six months of training; not trivial, but a lot less than a professional pilot. From https://www.how2become.com/careers/l...-train-driver/ [snip Internet hearsay] I don't really understand your point, or the relevance of pilots, or why you copy+pasted all of that from some random site (a link would have been enough!) Lots of people, it seems, don't read posted links, and it's in any case polite to quote relevant extracts. Not everyone is online when reading usenet. It also wasn't a random link. The relevance of pilots would be evident if you had read the post I was replying to. You're ranting on about drivers even after it's been pointed out that it's been an age since ASLEF have gone on strike. Perhaps you aren't aware that almost 40% of Tube drivers are RMT members, and they're the ones who frequently go on strike, sometimes to defend the indefensible. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to quote any rants of mine? I suspect you're confusing me with other posters. That's why this strike resulted in a shutdown rather than the minuscule service that's happened a few times over the last few years. You can run some service when you have reduced staff of different types, but when they all have a grievance they agree on... I don't work on the Underground, but if you're so jealous of people who do (that's surely what it comes down to?) there's surely an easy way to get on the button-pushing gravy train yourself? Apply! Why should I be jealous? Have I ever suggested I was? I just don't think that relatively well-paid people should subject millions of people to such disruption every time they have any sort of grievance. I spent a *lot* more than six months in higher education, never joined a union in my career, almost all of which was in organisations with no unions, and never even contemplated going on strike in my entire working life. Being well qualified, I was also well paid. Neither the work, nor the pay, of driving a tube train or a plane was ever attractive to me. It's really odd how if you work in a bank in the City you're creating wealth for the nation, but not if you're someone transporting thousands of them to their office. How many times have City workers ever gone on strike? And they aren't all as well paid as tube drivers. A very small proportion of investment bankers and top managers do earn huge sums, but most City workers don't. And, before you start accusing me of being a banker, no I wasn't, and nor did I ever work in the City. |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On Sat, 11 Jul 2015 13:52:25 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote: On Sat, 11 Jul 2015 11:22:48 +0100, Recliner wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 21:14:05 +0200, Robin9 wrote: 'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: ;149299']Robin9 wrote:- 'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: - ;149283']http://tinyurl.com/nf6grll- I heard that all LU workers were on strike, not just the train drivers. How much do the other members of staff earn?- Perhaps you didn't actually read the linked article? It said, "Tube drivers are also much better paid than some of their other colleagues who'll be joining them on strike. Station staff get around £30,000, according to TfI, with others closer to £20,000, while supervisors earn around £40,000 - still markedly less than what tube drivers get." No, I didn't read the linked article. I rarely follow links. So, most other members of staff earn far less than train drivers. Why then is all the attention on drivers' earnings and none on the £20,000 or so earned by the unspecified "others? Is this that famous politics-of-envy I keep hearing about? People think Tube drivers are very overpaid for the jobs they do. They don't think the other staff are. And yet it's most often the drivers who go on strike. No it isn't. It's station staff and people in specialised control positions that the RMT have called out. Some RMT train drivers have been called out but ASLEF rarely strikes. There have only been two ASLEF disputes - Boxing Day payments and the current Night Tube - in recent years. The Boxing Day issue is resolved. There are also line specific disputes - again nearly always called by the RMT. Yes, I know these days it's the RMT that's militant. In years gone by, it was ASLEF rather than the NUR that tended to call the strikes. Compare Tube drivers with bus drivers. By almost any measure, the latter have a much more difficult job, and yet they earn much less. Also, operating Tube trains is getting easier and easier, as the trains get more automated, and yet that de-skilling hasn't resulted in lower Tube driver pay. However the formal job requirements haven't been deskilled have they? Drivers have to learn to operate to a new set of operating procedures and rules, still need to know the entire route but how it works under degraded conditions with ATO kit and to still be able to drive the trains. Care of passengers, fault management and detection on the stock and safety & evacuation knowledge requirements haven't changed one jot as far as I know. When driving automatic trains manually, presumably they are driven much more slowly than when in full automatic mode? Do the trains still have protection? If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to "pressing a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of then a genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be warranted. I wonder if the travelling public would really be content to have relatively poorly qualified staff looking after technically complex assets in what will always be a confined environment underground? Lower paid, and often very young, cabin crew have similar responsibilities on airliners, and it seems to work pretty well. Planes no longer carry flight engineers, and the pilots seldom emerge from the flight deck other than to visit the loo or the galley. The cabin crew have to look after safety equipment, the doors, luggage stowage, broken seats, screaming kids, medical and emergency procedures, safety briefings, the entertainment system, etc on their own, quite apart from heating up and delivering the food and drink. On long haul flights, those responsibilities might last for up to 15 years (with rest breaks). They also have to monitor the flight deck, visiting it regularly to ensure that the pilots aren't all asleep. They need to be alert for possible hijackers, and stop passengers clustering round the cockpit door. They also have to deal with drunks. |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On 2015-07-11 18:28:00 +0000, Paul Cummins said:
all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube, Interesting as I've driven a Class 101 DMU (which involves a bit more than a modern one, given the semi-manual transmission and vacuum brake) and didn't actually find it all that difficult. Indeed, I was OK enough with it that at one point the instructor decided it was OK to wander off to the van to chat with his mate who was acting as the guard and leave me to it! OK, it was on a preserved line, so far fewer challenges, but in terms of the mechanics of driving the train (rather than all the other stuff drivers have to learn for the mainline and Tube) it wasn't hard. The PC based simulators are actually a bit harder than the real thing because you don't have the kind of feedback (feeling of acceleration and braking etc) that you do with the real thing. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
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How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On Sunday, July 12, 2015 at 1:29:21 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
On Saturday, 11 July 2015 20:31:36 UTC+1, Recliner wrote: Paul Cummins wrote: In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote: If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to "pressing a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of then a genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be warranted. all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube, after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane. And that really can be reduced to "press a button" I see it takes about six months of training; not trivial, but a lot less than a professional pilot. From https://www.how2become.com/careers/l...-train-driver/ [snip Internet hearsay] I don't really understand your point, or the relevance of pilots, or why you copy+pasted all of that from some random site (a link would have been enough!) You're ranting on about drivers even after it's been pointed out that it's been an age since ASLEF have gone on strike. That's why this strike resulted in a shutdown rather than the minuscule service that's happened a few times over the last few years. You can run some service when you have reduced staff of different types, but when they all have a grievance they agree on... I don't work on the Underground, but if you're so jealous of people who do (that's surely what it comes down to?) there's surely an easy way to get on the button-pushing gravy train yourself? Apply! It's really odd how if you work in a bank in the City you're creating wealth for the nation, but not if you're someone transporting thousands of them to their office. In Nigel's case it is not jealousy. It is a case of "I'm alright Jack". He has made his money, sod the workers trying to make a decent living. He lacks a moral compass. |
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(suburban) in London. He had changed jobs because he couldn't make a good living as a suburban driver. He said it had not taken long to be trained up as a driver and he was making far more money too. |
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You seem very pleased with the way your career has developed, and the above passage is not the first instance of your regaling us with details of your success. Yet you seem eager to suggest that well-paid tube drivers are somehow unworthy of their hire. I too have never aspired to work on London Underground but I'm glad that those who do are well paid. Having lived through the pre-Thatcher period when securing decent pay was normal and having seen what happens when the vast majority of jobs are badly paid, I am delighted when normal people with not more than normal levels of education, self-confidence and energy receive handsome renumeration. |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 11:59:01 PM UTC+5:30, Paul Cummins wrote:
In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote: If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to "pressing a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of then a genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be warranted. website designing company in tirunelveli, webdesign company in tirunelveli, web designer in tirunelveli , web site design tirunelveli,tamilnadu web designing company, web designing companies in tamilnadu, web designing in tirunelveli, web design tirunelveli, web designing in tuticorin, web design in tuticorin, web design tamilnadu, web design company tirunelveli, web designing in tamilnadu, web hosting in tirunelveli, cheap web hosting in tamil nadu, low cost web designing and hosting in tamilnadu, low cost domain registration in tamilnadu, web design india, website design india, web design company, web design chennai, web development company, website designers chennai, web design in tamilnadu web designer Tirunelveli, ecommerce developer in tamilnadu, moodle developer in tamilnadu, cms portal developer in tamilnadu, web design company in tamilnadu, web design tuticorin, web design tamilnadu,Website Designers tirunelveli India, e-Commerce web design company, Website Design Company tirunelveli, India, e-Commerce Web Development, Web Design tirunelveli, Website Design, India, Web Design, Website, Web Design, Web Design Agency, Web Design Firm, SEO, Ecommerce, Web Development",affordable website design, create a website design,e-commerce website designing, flash, flash templates, flash web designing usa, free web templates, free website templates, html, need a website, sivaramasamy, web design, web design services, web designer, web designers, web designers in Tamilnadu, web designers india, web designing, web designing india, web designing services, web developer, web developers, web development, web development company, web development services, web site design, web site design services, web site designing company, web site development, web site development services, website design, website design company, website design services, website design usa, website designer, website designers, website designing india, website developer, website development company, website development services,web design company in chennai,web design companies in chennai,bamstechnologies,bamstechnologies tirunelveli, http://www.bamstechnologies.com/ all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube, after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane. And that really can be reduced to "press a button" -- Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead Wasting Bandwidth since 1981 Please Help us dispose of unwanted virtual currency: Bitcoin: 1LzAJBqzoaEudhsZ14W7YrdYSmLZ5m1seZ tamilnadu web designing company| bamstechnologies tirunelveli|tirunelveli software company |
How well off are London's tube drivers and why are they striking?
On Wednesday, July 8, 2015 at 10:06:23 PM UTC+5:30, Recliner wrote:
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