From
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/trans...n-9295476.html

Matthew Beard, Transport Editor

Paris Metro bosses today backed plans to emulate the city’s use of
driverless underground trains in London.
RATP has advised Transport for London as it plans to convert four Tube
lines to full automation, beginning with the Piccadilly line in the mid
2020s.

Under the £16 billion programme, passengers will travel on trains “driven�
from a control centre. Some unions have opposed the plans, insisting they
pose a safety risk while many passengers remain unnerved at the prospect of
a cab-less train.

The Paris Metro has led the way in Europe, with the first driverless line
opening in 1998, a second in 2012 and a third due by the end of the decade.

The Metro suffered its last major strike in 1995 and reforms made in 2000
force unions to the negotiating table before a strike ballot can be held.
Such rules are the envy of TfL as it seeks 950 job cuts in its programme to
close Tube ticket offices, a move that has promoted the threat of a fresh
wave strikes, with RMT members due to stage a 48-hour strike from tonight.

Trains in Paris operate to the highest level of automation — more advanced
than the driverless trains of London’s DLR — with automatic trains braking
and accelerating, doors operated remotely and tracks protected by platform
edge screen doors familiar to Jubilee line passengers. With no staff on the
automated lines, a passenger alarm connects to RATP’s control centre using
live CCTV cameras which also show views of the tunnel ahead.

Phillipe Mancone, Chief of Line 1 at RATP, insisted that full automation
was not a blanket solution in Paris, whose 14 lines carry five million
passengers a day. He said it had transformed the performance of Line 1,
which opened two years ago and is the same as the Victoria line in length
and capacity, carrying 750,000 passengers a day.

He said: “It is a good system for Paris on lines which have reached
saturation point. These are typically lines running through tourist
hotspots and one-off events where there are sudden peaks and you need to
respond in real time. It gives you safety, adaptability and increased
reliability and performance.� Advanced signalling enables trains to run at
a rate of 38 per hour — 85 seconds apart — in the peak, four more than
London’s top-performing Victoria Line.

Staffing levels have been cut from 250 to 40. Mr Mancone said: “We had to
discuss it with the unions for years to show them the benefits. It hasn’t
weakened the unions, it’s just another way of working. Automation is not a
religion; on some lines it is not necessary.�

Gareth Powell, London Underground’s director of strategy, said by following
the model, the Piccadilly Line could achieve a 60 per cent capacity
increase. In February, TfL began the search for a supplier of 250
driverless Tube trains to operate from the middle of the next decade on the
Piccadilly, Central, Bakerloo and Waterloo & City lines.

On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 16:13:59 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
Matthew Beard, Transport Editor

The Paris Metro has led the way in Europe, with the first driverless line
opening in 1998, a second in 2012 and a third due by the end of the decade.

Someone should point out to Mr Beard that the DLR has been driverless since
1987 and the victoria line automated since 1967.

The Metro suffered its last major strike in 1995 and reforms made in 2000
force unions to the negotiating table before a strike ballot can be held.

Yeah, right. Unions in france tend to ignore the law when it suits them as
recent events in Calais have demonstrated.

--
Spud

wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 16:13:59 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
Matthew Beard, Transport Editor

The Paris Metro has led the way in Europe, with the first driverless line
opening in 1998, a second in 2012 and a third due by the end of the decade.

Someone should point out to Mr Beard that the DLR has been driverless since
1987 and the victoria line automated since 1967.

I think the Paris Metro trains are unmanned, unlike the DLR and the
Victoria line (which opened in 1968).

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 09:47:21 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 16:13:59 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
Matthew Beard, Transport Editor

The Paris Metro has led the way in Europe, with the first driverless line
opening in 1998, a second in 2012 and a third due by the end of the decade.

Someone should point out to Mr Beard that the DLR has been driverless since
1987 and the victoria line automated since 1967.

I think the Paris Metro trains are unmanned, unlike the DLR and the
Victoria line (which opened in 1968).

Thats true. Not sure I'd be happy about travelling on a completely unmanned
train in our deep level tube tunnels especially in rush hour.

--
Spud

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 11:08:04 +0000 (UTC), y wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 09:47:21 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 16:13:59 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
Matthew Beard, Transport Editor

The Paris Metro has led the way in Europe, with the first driverless line
opening in 1998, a second in 2012 and a third due by the end of the decade.

Someone should point out to Mr Beard that the DLR has been driverless since
1987 and the victoria line automated since 1967.

I think the Paris Metro trains are unmanned, unlike the DLR and the
Victoria line (which opened in 1968).

Thats true. Not sure I'd be happy about travelling on a completely unmanned
train in our deep level tube tunnels especially in rush hour.

Which means, of course, that we stay under the power of the unions,
whatever limited on-board role they may perform.

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 15:57:43 +0100
Recliner wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 11:08:04 +0000 (UTC), y wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 09:47:21 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 16:13:59 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
Matthew Beard, Transport Editor

The Paris Metro has led the way in Europe, with the first driverless line
opening in 1998, a second in 2012 and a third due by the end of the
decade.

Someone should point out to Mr Beard that the DLR has been driverless
since
1987 and the victoria line automated since 1967.

I think the Paris Metro trains are unmanned, unlike the DLR and the
Victoria line (which opened in 1968).

Thats true. Not sure I'd be happy about travelling on a completely unmanned
train in our deep level tube tunnels especially in rush hour.

Which means, of course, that we stay under the power of the unions,
whatever limited on-board role they may perform.

The rail unions could be brought to heal just like the miners were if some of
our current crop of politicos could find actually find a pair.

--
Spud

wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 15:57:43 +0100
Recliner wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 11:08:04 +0000 (UTC), y wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 09:47:21 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 16:13:59 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
Matthew Beard, Transport Editor

The Paris Metro has led the way in Europe, with the first driverless line
opening in 1998, a second in 2012 and a third due by the end of the
decade.

Someone should point out to Mr Beard that the DLR has been driverless
since
1987 and the victoria line automated since 1967.

I think the Paris Metro trains are unmanned, unlike the DLR and the
Victoria line (which opened in 1968).

Thats true. Not sure I'd be happy about travelling on a completely unmanned
train in our deep level tube tunnels especially in rush hour.

Which means, of course, that we stay under the power of the unions,
whatever limited on-board role they may perform.

The rail unions could be brought to heal just like the miners were if some of
our current crop of politicos could find actually find a pair.

The trouble is that it's hard to stockpile driver hours like you can coal.
I think the government's plan is to let the unions annoy the population so
much that there will be overwhelming support for legislation to ban strikes
in essential services.

Recliner wrote:
The trouble is that it's hard to stockpile driver hours like you can
coal. I think the government's plan is to let the unions annoy the
population so much that there will be overwhelming support for
legislation to ban strikes in essential services.

Which sadly would still leave the problem of "blue flu"?

ISTM the least bad option is to de-skill the job with automation so
that, even if there is a need for a person on board*, it is a job which
can be done by many more people after much less training.

*I have never understood the obsession many seem to have with staff on
trains. If the train can be moved by remote controllers, and help
summoned by calls to them, ISTM the main thing lost is the driver's
ability to deal with heart attacks, fights etc which start while a train
is unable
to move due to power loss etc. Just how often has that been a
significant benefit in the past - leaving aside circumstances which
wouldn't arise with modern communication systems and platform edge
screen doors? Indeed, do our wonderful, highly trained, tube drivers
carry defibrillators and know how to use them or are they waiting for a
one-off payment and extra salary?

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

"Robin" wrote:
Recliner wrote:
The trouble is that it's hard to stockpile driver hours like you can
coal. I think the government's plan is to let the unions annoy the
population so much that there will be overwhelming support for
legislation to ban strikes in essential services.

Which sadly would still leave the problem of "blue flu"?

ISTM the least bad option is to de-skill the job with automation so
that, even if there is a need for a person on board*, it is a job which
can be done by many more people after much less training.

*I have never understood the obsession many seem to have with staff on
trains. If the train can be moved by remote controllers, and help
summoned by calls to them, ISTM the main thing lost is the driver's
ability to deal with heart attacks, fights etc which start while a train
is unable
to move due to power loss etc. Just how often has that been a
significant benefit in the past - leaving aside circumstances which
wouldn't arise with modern communication systems and platform edge
screen doors? Indeed, do our wonderful, highly trained, tube drivers
carry defibrillators and know how to use them or are they waiting for a
one-off payment and extra salary?

When BA was faced with regular cabin crew strikes, it reminded them how
little training was needed for their jobs, and recruited many new flight
attendants on cheaper contracts. They only needed a few weeks training.
That put paid to the strikes, which were all about defending the perks of
the senior cabin crew who were recruited by BOAC on civil service style
contracts.

The cabin crew have roughly the same safety role as train attendants may
have in the future, plus they have to serve the food and drinks when not
doing safety-related stuff, something that Tube attendants thankfully won't
have to do. They do have glamour and foreign travel associated with their
role, which is some compensation for low wages, but the new cabin crew earn
less than half what Tube drivers do.

For anyone who thinks that the Tube drivers' high pay, long holidays,
regular strike days off during key sporting events, and short working hours
sounds attractive, this is worth a read:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...Heres-why.html

Doesn't it remind you of the route to becoming a steam engine driver in the
old days?

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:17:17 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
Which means, of course, that we stay under the power of the unions,
whatever limited on-board role they may perform.

The rail unions could be brought to heal just like the miners were if some
of
our current crop of politicos could find actually find a pair.

The trouble is that it's hard to stockpile driver hours like you can coal.
I think the government's plan is to let the unions annoy the population so
much that there will be overwhelming support for legislation to ban strikes
in essential services.

I'm not sure I'd be happy with banning strikes altogether, but perhaps some
sort of greater financial penalty if they do. So 1 days strike = 1 weeks lost
pay or similar.

Mind you , there is the Regan solution. Back in 80 or 81 the air traffic
controllers went on strike in the US for the umpteenth time and Reagan had
threatened to sack the lot if they did it again. They did do it again and he
did sack them all with an added bonus of preventing being re-employed as
controllers anywhere in the USA.

If it can be done with something as critical as air traffic control I'm pretty
sure it could be done with tube staff especially since their jobs don't even
come close to the pressure and complexity of the former. I'm sure there are
plenty of east europeans who'd be more than willing to do it.

--
Spud