London Banter - Chiltern to Paddington

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Chiltern to Paddington

On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 21:01:12 +0100, Barry Salter
wrote:

On 11/08/2015 15:33, Basil Jet wrote:

What use is a diversionary route that only a fraction of the drivers
have the route knowledge for?

Bearing in mind that, to keep the route on their card, a driver needs to
drive over it at *least* every six months,

Drive over it or travel in the cab ?

and Chiltern run over it
approximately 260 days a year, that gives a theoretical maximum of 130
drivers who can sign it...assuming you have a different driver every day.

Chiltern has approximately 300 drivers, so short of running two or three
trains a day to/from Paddington (which there isn't the stock for, let
alone paths), it's impossible for the entire complement to sign the route.

With the route being limited to two trains per hour each way due to the
single line, it's just as easy to change drivers at West Ruislip and
implement stepping back.

Cheers,

Barry

Chiltern to Paddington

On 12/08/15 18:57, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2015\08\10 21:54, Barry Salter wrote:
The latest iteration of the October timetable has been uploaded into
ITPS, so is now available in journey planners, and it's a fairly major
recast in the off-peak!

October of which year? The Chiltern website says the current timetable
is valid until this December.

The full proposed October 2015 timetable is available from
http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/october-timetable

"On 26th October we shall commence the operation of services between Oxford
Parkway and London Marylebone"

Roger

Chiltern to Paddington

On 13/08/2015 00:11, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 21:01:12 +0100, Barry Salter
wrote:

On 11/08/2015 15:33, Basil Jet wrote:

What use is a diversionary route that only a fraction of the drivers
have the route knowledge for?

Bearing in mind that, to keep the route on their card, a driver needs to
drive over it at *least* every six months,

Drive over it or travel in the cab ?

The wording in the Rule Book is: "When working a train, you must have
the necessary knowledge for the entire route over which you are to work,
or be accompanied by a competent conductor driver."

The precise details are left to individual operators, but both practical
handling and theory are assessed.

Cheers,

Barry

Chiltern to Paddington

On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:43:32 -0700 (PDT), Chris
wrote:

On Thursday, 6 August 2015 13:55:28 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
Yes, I suppose so, though at least HS2 will now be in tunnel in the
Park Royal area, rather than taking over that old GWR Oxford line
alignment to Northolt.

But once Crossrail and the OOC station are built, I wonder if a
possible route to Paddington with available capacity will remain?

Think laterally - what'll be at OOC station? Yup, Crossrail & a connection to LHR. Won't that be enough to attract Chiltern?. Quite probably, with no requirement for Paddington.

Also, someone up-thread suggested Risborough/Aylesbury - why not extend that northwards & eastwards when the new EastWest comes online & run to Milton Keynes or Bedford? That's my thinking.

The stretch of track between Old Oak Common and Northolt Junction is a
beautifully engineered RoW. It was completed in 1906 and once saw
Castle Hauled express trains to Birmingham. The line is almost
straight with an almost imperceptible curve past Hanger Lane.

In 1948 it was joined by the LPTB Central Line. Planned pre WWII this
was part of an anti-recession, job creation exercise.

The issue with this section is that there in insufficient demand from
South Ruislip. Et al, for trains to Marylebone, Paddington (or OOC)
and the TfL Central Line service.

The current arrangements thru the Ruislip Stations, along with the
Greenford to West Ealing branch are messy to say the least. But there
is no quick fix.

At first glance a Crossrail branch to say, Gerrards Cross, seems
attractive. But, Crossrail and the Central Line to the West End and
City is overkill. Could Crossrail replace the Central Line? Maybe,
but it would only make sense if Crossrail also took over the Central
Line branch to Ealing Broadway. That would mean cutting the Central
Line back to White City. This in turn would mean the loss of access
to Ruislip Depot. So, the Depot facilities at the eastern end of the
Central Line would need beefing up.

Can this section justify frequent 10 car trains? And what of the
Greenford to west Ealing section, it would become an isolated diesel
branch between two Crossrail routes. Perhaps the Central Line is
better left as it is. What is the demand for trains between West
Ealing and Greenford anyway? Would it make a sensible Central Line
branch?

But, then, the Greenford branch also sees use for mainline diversions.
I doubt Network Rail want tube trains in the way of those!

The route from Ruislip into Paddington is due to be severed at OOC if
the HS2 plans go ahead. And in truth the Central Line serves this
stretch adequately.

Chiltern Railways are developing their services thru the old GCGW
section very well. However, Interchange between Chiltern Railways and
the Central Line is rather inconvenient. The nationalized railway
pulled one of their platform widening stunts at West Ruislip. The
platform was extended over the platform loop but the canopy was not.
Moreover the Central Line was left with its isolated island platform.
Passengers alighting from Central Line trains at West Ruislip wanting
to continue to Denham and beyond, have to climb and descend stairs
despite the fact their train is sitting right next to the down
mainline platform.

Would it be so hard to rebuild South Ruislip and West Ruislip as
normal four platform stations that allowed interchange across the
middle island to the down route to Denham et al? That would at least
tidy up the stations and give some focus to passenger convenience.

What of the Greenford branch? A possible use for tram-trains perhaps?
But, where would they go from their termini? Maybe this will become
another isolated section of the Overground.

Chiltern to Paddington

e27002 aurora wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:43:32 -0700 (PDT), Chris
wrote:

On Thursday, 6 August 2015 13:55:28 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
Yes, I suppose so, though at least HS2 will now be in tunnel in the
Park Royal area, rather than taking over that old GWR Oxford line
alignment to Northolt.

But once Crossrail and the OOC station are built, I wonder if a
possible route to Paddington with available capacity will remain?

Think laterally - what'll be at OOC station? Yup, Crossrail & a
connection to LHR. Won't that be enough to attract Chiltern?. Quite
probably, with no requirement for Paddington.

Also, someone up-thread suggested Risborough/Aylesbury - why not extend
that northwards & eastwards when the new EastWest comes online & run to
Milton Keynes or Bedford? That's my thinking.

The stretch of track between Old Oak Common and Northolt Junction is a
beautifully engineered RoW. It was completed in 1906 and once saw
Castle Hauled express trains to Birmingham. The line is almost
straight with an almost imperceptible curve past Hanger Lane.

In 1948 it was joined by the LPTB Central Line. Planned pre WWII this
was part of an anti-recession, job creation exercise.

The issue with this section is that there in insufficient demand from
South Ruislip. Et al, for trains to Marylebone, Paddington (or OOC)
and the TfL Central Line service.

The current arrangements thru the Ruislip Stations, along with the
Greenford to West Ealing branch are messy to say the least. But there
is no quick fix.

At first glance a Crossrail branch to say, Gerrards Cross, seems
attractive. But, Crossrail and the Central Line to the West End and
City is overkill. Could Crossrail replace the Central Line? Maybe,
but it would only make sense if Crossrail also took over the Central
Line branch to Ealing Broadway. That would mean cutting the Central
Line back to White City. This in turn would mean the loss of access
to Ruislip Depot. So, the Depot facilities at the eastern end of the
Central Line would need beefing up.

Can this section justify frequent 10 car trains? And what of the
Greenford to west Ealing section, it would become an isolated diesel
branch between two Crossrail routes. Perhaps the Central Line is
better left as it is. What is the demand for trains between West
Ealing and Greenford anyway? Would it make a sensible Central Line
branch?

But, then, the Greenford branch also sees use for mainline diversions.
I doubt Network Rail want tube trains in the way of those!

The route from Ruislip into Paddington is due to be severed at OOC if
the HS2 plans go ahead.

I think this is no longer the case, as I stated earlier in this thread. You
must be thinking of an earlier iteration of the HS2 plans.

And in truth the Central Line serves this
stretch adequately.

The Crossrail trains would serve, at most, one of the Ruislip stations.

Chiltern Railways are developing their services thru the old GCGW
section very well. However, Interchange between Chiltern Railways and
the Central Line is rather inconvenient. The nationalized railway
pulled one of their platform widening stunts at West Ruislip. The
platform was extended over the platform loop but the canopy was not.
Moreover the Central Line was left with its isolated island platform.
Passengers alighting from Central Line trains at West Ruislip wanting
to continue to Denham and beyond, have to climb and descend stairs
despite the fact their train is sitting right next to the down
mainline platform.

But only 1 tph?

Would it be so hard to rebuild South Ruislip and West Ruislip as
normal four platform stations that allowed interchange across the
middle island to the down route to Denham et al? That would at least
tidy up the stations and give some focus to passenger convenience.

Hardly justified for the limited numbers interchangeing there.

What of the Greenford branch? A possible use for tram-trains perhaps?
But, where would they go from their termini? Maybe this will become
another isolated section of the Overground.

Yes, it no longer fits in the GWR network, but would be hard to include in
the Central or Chiltern lines. Maybe run it as the planned shuttle, but
under Chiltern?

Chiltern to Paddington

On 15/08/2015 14:50, e27002 aurora wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:43:32 -0700 (PDT), Chris
wrote:

On Thursday, 6 August 2015 13:55:28 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
Yes, I suppose so, though at least HS2 will now be in tunnel in the
Park Royal area, rather than taking over that old GWR Oxford line
alignment to Northolt.

But once Crossrail and the OOC station are built, I wonder if a
possible route to Paddington with available capacity will remain?

And what of the
Greenford to west Ealing section, it would become an isolated diesel
branch between two Crossrail routes. Perhaps the Central Line is
better left as it is. What is the demand for trains between West
Ealing and Greenford anyway? Would it make a sensible Central Line
branch?

But, then, the Greenford branch also sees use for mainline diversions.
I doubt Network Rail want tube trains in the way of those!

The route from Ruislip into Paddington is due to be severed at OOC if
the HS2 plans go ahead. And in truth the Central Line serves this
stretch adequately.

What of the Greenford branch? A possible use for tram-trains perhaps?
But, where would they go from their termini? Maybe this will become
another isolated section of the Overground.

Assuming paths could be found, might it be viable to have a (hourly)
Chiltern service from, say, Princes Risborough to Ealing Broadway via
the Greenford line. One purpose would be for connections to Heathrow.

Chiltern to Paddington

BevanPrice wrote:
On 15/08/2015 14:50, e27002 aurora wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:43:32 -0700 (PDT), Chris
wrote:

On Thursday, 6 August 2015 13:55:28 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
Yes, I suppose so, though at least HS2 will now be in tunnel in the
Park Royal area, rather than taking over that old GWR Oxford line
alignment to Northolt.

But once Crossrail and the OOC station are built, I wonder if a
possible route to Paddington with available capacity will remain?

And what of the
Greenford to west Ealing section, it would become an isolated diesel
branch between two Crossrail routes. Perhaps the Central Line is
better left as it is. What is the demand for trains between West
Ealing and Greenford anyway? Would it make a sensible Central Line
branch?

But, then, the Greenford branch also sees use for mainline diversions.
I doubt Network Rail want tube trains in the way of those!

The route from Ruislip into Paddington is due to be severed at OOC if
the HS2 plans go ahead. And in truth the Central Line serves this
stretch adequately.

What of the Greenford branch? A possible use for tram-trains perhaps?
But, where would they go from their termini? Maybe this will become
another isolated section of the Overground.

Assuming paths could be found, might it be viable to have a (hourly)
Chiltern service from, say, Princes Risborough to Ealing Broadway via the
Greenford line. One purpose would be for connections to Heathrow.

Probably easier to terminate in the new bay platform at West Ealing -- I
don't think it's viable to reverse at Ealing Broadway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Recliner[_3_] (Post 149717)

As most people here must know, Chiltern runs one service a day, M-F,
to Paddington. It's run mainly for maintaining driver route knowledge
for the occasions when Chiltern services are diverted to Paddington.

It's not quite a parly service, as it runs at a convenient time, five
days a week, but it's also not promoted and little used other than by
rail enthusiasts (the few passengers are all sole males with cameras).
And, yes, I was one of those this week, and here's the evidence:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/reclin...57654494380303

But it got me wondering if Chiltern could or should run more services
into Paddington? Chiltern's services are growing steadily, with 2 tph
Oxford services being added soon. The two-track route into Marylebone
is congested, as are Marylebone's six platforms. Would it be possible
to run, say, 2 tph into Paddington? There's obviously many
constraints, including:

- the single track sections on the neglected former main line from
South Ruislip to Old Oak Common, which also sees occasional freight
trains

- the flat Old Oak Common West Junction to the GW relief lines

- capacity on the relief lines into Paddington

- Paddington platform availability.

But might there still be room for a limited number of Chiltern
services, maybe even at peak times? Once Crossrail starts, there will
be more room in Paddington itself, but what about on the approach
lines?

I travelled on this train this morning. Very interesting. There was one other
passenger - with the regulation camera - and a member of staff in civilian
clothes who seemed to be the guard. He said the reason for the service was
to maintain Chiltern's right of way into Paddington and seemed to think that
staff training was a secondary consideration.

He also confirmed there was no chance of Chiltern sending more trains to
Paddington because of a lack of train paths and platforms.

Does anyone know why there are such severe speed limits on this line? The
parallel Central Line moves quite quickly and the track seems to be well-
maintained.

Chiltern to Paddington

On 2015\09\18 16:54, Robin9 wrote:

I travelled on this train this morning. Very interesting. There was one
other
passenger - with the regulation camera - and a member of staff in
civilian
clothes who seemed to be the guard. He said the reason for the service
was
to maintain Chiltern's right of way into Paddington and seemed to think
that
staff training was a secondary consideration.

He also confirmed there was no chance of Chiltern sending more trains to

Paddington because of a lack of train paths and platforms.

What use is maintaining Chiltern's "right of way" if they don't have the
right to more than one path a day?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basil Jet[_4_] (Post 150276)

On 2015\09\18 16:54, Robin9 wrote:

I travelled on this train this morning. Very interesting. There was
one other passenger - with the regulation camera - and a member
of staff in civilian clothes who seemed to be the guard. He said the
reason for the service was to maintain Chiltern's right of way into
Paddington and seemed to think that staff training was a secondary
consideration.

He also confirmed there was no chance of Chiltern sending more trains
to Paddington because of a lack of train paths and platforms.

What use is maintaining Chiltern's "right of way" if they don't have the
right to more than one path a day?

You'll have to ask Chiltern. I'm only the messenger!