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Train-numbers on the LU
Hi all
I am trying to find out which numbers go where. So far I have this list, based on some lines: Bakerloo: Possibly 2xx but not sure Central: Don't know Circle: 201-214? District: 0xx (D-stock-trains) but what about the Wimbledon-Edgware Road services? East London: 171-176 Hammersmith & City: Don't know (unless it is 2xx above 214) Jubilee: 3xx Metropolitan: 4xx Northern: 0xx Piccadilly: 3xx Victoria: 2xx Waterloo & City: 201-204 Specials and engineering trains 7xx How far "off-track" am I? And can anyone expand the list? For instance with service-specific numbers (ie. Olympia for District, Uxbrigde/Ruislip/Rayners Lane for Piccadilly, Mill Hill East/High Barnet/Edgware/City/Charing Cross for Northern and so on and so forth...) Thanks in advance! -- Lars Elmvang ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My mailadress is found by only writing the over-exposed domainname once |
Train-numbers on the LU
t about the Wimbledon-Edgware Road
070 to 076 |
Train-numbers on the LU
Olympia for District,
Olympia trains are No's 151 D & 152 D |
Train-numbers on the LU
Lars Elmvang wrote in message .. .
Hi all I am trying to find out which numbers go where. So far I have this list, based on some lines: Bakerloo: Possibly 2xx but not sure Central: Don't know Circle: 201-214? District: 0xx (D-stock-trains) but what about the Wimbledon-Edgware Road services? East London: 171-176 Hammersmith & City: Don't know (unless it is 2xx above 214) Jubilee: 3xx Metropolitan: 4xx Northern: 0xx Piccadilly: 3xx Victoria: 2xx Waterloo & City: 201-204 Specials and engineering trains 7xx How far "off-track" am I? And can anyone expand the list? For instance with service-specific numbers (ie. Olympia for District, Uxbrigde/Ruislip/Rayners Lane for Piccadilly, Mill Hill East/High Barnet/Edgware/City/Charing Cross for Northern and so on and so forth...) Thanks in advance! Bakerloo are 200 to somewhere in the 240s. The numbers sometimes relate to the stabling arrangements, for example Bakerloo 241 is the London Road midday stabler. The circle and H&C have a shared number series, I think. The picc numbers were in the following series (in 1999): 250 - 257, 260 Cockfosters to Rayners Lane 261 - 267, 270 - 272 Cockfosters to Uxbridge 273 Spare at Acton Town (midday) 274 - 277 Northfields Midday Stablers 300 - 307, 310 - 317, 320 - 327, 330 - 337, 340 - 343 Cockfosters to Heathrow 347 Acton Town Overnight stabler 351 - 357, 360 - 366 Arnos Grove to Northfields 371 - 373 Cockfosters Midday Stablers When running an emergency timetable the picc runs Cockfosters to Heathrow (400 series) and Acton to Rayners Lane (500 series). The vic emergency numbering is in the 000s, and I think the district emergency series is in the 300s. I can't help with the others; I've never seen the bakerloo run an emergency timetable and don't remember the central's series. |
Train-numbers on the LU
"Thomas Crame" wrote in message
om... Bakerloo are 200 to somewhere in the 240s. The numbers sometimes relate to the stabling arrangements, for example Bakerloo 241 is the London Road midday stabler. 201-213 Stonebridge Park depot starters 221-227 Queen's Park depot starters 231-242 London Road depot starters 245-247 Elephant sidings starters 251-254 London Road-Elephant changeovers From memory, the emergency timetable is in the 0XX series, certainly for Elephant to Queen's Park. I don't know what happens for the Harrow service. CENTRAL LINE (WTT60) 1-23 Epping-West Ruislip 31-41 Woodford-Ealing via Hainault 50-57 Hainault-Ealing Broadway 61-67 (Mon-Sat) Loughton-North Acton 61-65 (Sun) White City-Leytonstone 71-76 (Mon-Sat) Newbury Park-White City 101-111 Ruislip depot midday stablers 121-122 White City depot midday stablers 141-154 Hainault depot midday stablers 480 Hainault depot midday route learning/rusty rails train JUBILEE (WTT6) Monday-Friday: 301-343 Stanmore/Wembley/Willesden Grn-Stratford 350-354 Neasden midday stablers 360-366 Stratford midday stablers 370 Peak spare Saturday/Sunday: 301-334 Stanmore-Stratford 340-353 Wembley Park/Willesden Grn-Stratford NORTHERN (WTT48) 1-11 Edgware starters 21-33 Golders starters 40-47 Barnet starters 51-64 Highgate starters 71-131 Morden starters 141-155 Morden midday stablers 161-173 Golders midday stablers 174 Golders evening peak starter 730 Golders-Highgate transfer 731-2 Golders-Golders turning trip 733 Golders-Morden transfer 734 Morden-Golders transfer MET 401-404 Amersham-Baker St 407 Chesham shuttle 420-435 Uxbridge-Aldgate 440-451 Watford-Baker Street 460-476 Neasden midday stablers 470-473 Neasden-Rickmansworth transfer 710 Rail Adhesion Train 711-712 Rickmansworth/Amersham test train 713 Uxbridge test train 714-717 Turning trips HTH. |
Train-numbers on the LU
"Thomas Crame" wrote in message om... The circle and H&C have a shared number series, I think. The picc numbers were in the following series (in 1999): 250 - 257, 260 Cockfosters to Rayners Lane 261 - 267, 270 - 272 Cockfosters to Uxbridge 273 Spare at Acton Town (midday) 274 - 277 Northfields Midday Stablers 300 - 307, 310 - 317, 320 - 327, 330 - 337, 340 - 343 Cockfosters to Heathrow 347 Acton Town Overnight stabler 351 - 357, 360 - 366 Arnos Grove to Northfields 371 - 373 Cockfosters Midday Stablers Is there a reason why the don't use numbers ending in 8 or 9? Peter Smyth |
Train-numbers on the LU
MET
401-404 Amersham-Baker St 407 Chesham shuttle 420-435 Uxbridge-Aldgate 440-451 Watford-Baker Street 460-476 Neasden midday stablers 470-473 Neasden-Rickmansworth transfer 710 Rail Adhesion Train NOT SO - The Amershams start at 410 and i think the Watford trains are now in the 42X set. |
Train-numbers on the LU
Roger the cabin boy wrote:
MET 401-404 Amersham-Baker St 407 Chesham shuttle 420-435 Uxbridge-Aldgate 440-451 Watford-Baker Street 460-476 Neasden midday stablers 470-473 Neasden-Rickmansworth transfer 710 Rail Adhesion Train NOT SO - The Amershams start at 410 and i think the Watford trains are now in the 42X set. Hmm, I've seen some pictures of Amersham trains (recent pics) with 401 and 402....... -- Lars Elmvang ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Min mailadresse finder du ved kun at skrive det overeksponerede domænenavn én gang |
Train-numbers on the LU
Peter Smyth wrote:
"Thomas Crame" wrote in message om... The circle and H&C have a shared number series, I think. The picc numbers were in the following series (in 1999): 250 - 257, 260 Cockfosters to Rayners Lane 261 - 267, 270 - 272 Cockfosters to Uxbridge 273 Spare at Acton Town (midday) 274 - 277 Northfields Midday Stablers 300 - 307, 310 - 317, 320 - 327, 330 - 337, 340 - 343 Cockfosters to Heathrow 347 Acton Town Overnight stabler 351 - 357, 360 - 366 Arnos Grove to Northfields 371 - 373 Cockfosters Midday Stablers Is there a reason why the don't use numbers ending in 8 or 9? If I recall correctly old signalling computers not recognicing these digits...... -- Lars Elmvang ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Min mailadresse finder du ved kun at skrive det overeksponerede domænenavn én gang |
Train-numbers on the LU
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Train-numbers on the LU
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Train-numbers on the LU
) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying : Binary Coded Decimal is used a lot with the programme machines and the various remote control of the IMRs etc. and describers. In BCD the decimal number is represented by the digits 0 and 1. The number 4 is represented by 100, 5-101, 6-110, 7-111, 8-1000, 16-10000 Umm, not quite. In normal Binary, 16 is 10000, but in BCD each decimal digit is coded separately in four-bit Binary, so 16 would be 0001 0110 - which is why it's called Binary Coded Decimal. Note - I have no idea about whether BCD or normal Binary was used... |
Train-numbers on the LU
|
Train-numbers on the LU
JRS: In article , seen in
news:uk.transport.london, Peter Smyth posted at Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:00:10 :- "Thomas Crame" wrote in message . com... The circle and H&C have a shared number series, I think. The picc numbers were in the following series (in 1999): 250 - 257, 260 Cockfosters to Rayners Lane 261 - 267, 270 - 272 Cockfosters to Uxbridge 273 Spare at Acton Town (midday) 274 - 277 Northfields Midday Stablers 300 - 307, 310 - 317, 320 - 327, 330 - 337, 340 - 343 Cockfosters to Heathrow 347 Acton Town Overnight stabler 351 - 357, 360 - 366 Arnos Grove to Northfields 371 - 373 Cockfosters Midday Stablers Is there a reason why the don't use numbers ending in 8 or 9? Trains, as you know, are made up of carriages. Generally, these have a bogie at each end, two axles on each bogie, and two wheels on each axle - i.e. eight wheels in all. That is why they count in octal. -- © John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v4.00 MIME. © Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms PAS EXE etc : URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/ - see 00index.htm Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc. |
Train-numbers on the LU
In article ,
(Thomas Crame) wrote: wrote in message ... In article , (Peter Smyth) wrote: "Thomas Crame" wrote in message om... The circle and H&C have a shared number series, I think. The picc numbers were in the following series (in 1999): 250 - 257, 260 Cockfosters to Rayners Lane 261 - 267, 270 - 272 Cockfosters to Uxbridge 273 Spare at Acton Town (midday) 274 - 277 Northfields Midday Stablers 300 - 307, 310 - 317, 320 - 327, 330 - 337, 340 - 343 Cockfosters to Heathrow 347 Acton Town Overnight stabler 351 - 357, 360 - 366 Arnos Grove to Northfields 371 - 373 Cockfosters Midday Stablers Is there a reason why the don't use numbers ending in 8 or 9? Peter Smyth I think this started on the Northern Line, with the introduction of programme machine working in the 1950s, and other lines followed suit. On the programme machine rolls, the information for that train is stored in a row of punched holes. Binary Coded Decimal is used a lot with the programme machines and the various remote control of the IMRs etc. and describers. In BCD the decimal number is represented by the digits 0 and 1. The number 4 is represented by 100, 5-101, 6-110, 7-111, 8-1000, 16-10000 and so on. This means an extra wire etc. for each extra digit. I suspect that this is the reason. I have the info. on it somewhere, but not to hand. The dutys (on the Northern Line anyway) also do not use 8 or 9. I can't remember when it changed. It was a long while ago, but mot at the same time as the programme machine introduction. Roger The programme machines use octal numbering, which is why they don't use 8s or 9s. It's also impossible to have a train number beginning with a number higher than 3 on a programme machine signalled line. A few train numbers you won't see: 375 - This is used as the "Start of service" by a programme machine. 376 - Used for "End of service" 377 - Indicates the programme machine roll has come off the carrier, as all contact fingers are made. I stand corrected, thanks for the info. Roger |
Train-numbers on the LU
Hmm, I've seen some pictures of Amersham trains (recent pics) with 401 and 402....... Nope it has changed "recently" |
Train-numbers on the LU
Peter Smyth wrote:
"Thomas Crame" wrote in message om... The circle and H&C have a shared number series, I think. 201-207 Circle Outer rail 211-217 Circle Inner rail 221-24? H&C The picc numbers were in the following series (in 1999): 250 - 257, 260 Cockfosters to Rayners Lane 261 - 267, 270 - 272 Cockfosters to Uxbridge 273 Spare at Acton Town (midday) 274 - 277 Northfields Midday Stablers 300 - 307, 310 - 317, 320 - 327, 330 - 337, 340 - 343 Cockfosters to Heathrow 347 Acton Town Overnight stabler 351 - 357, 360 - 366 Arnos Grove to Northfields 371 - 373 Cockfosters Midday Stablers Is there a reason why the don't use numbers ending in 8 or 9? Peter Smyth -- Lawrence Myers Remove numbers,if present, from address to reply. |
Train-numbers on the LU
Thomas Crame wrote:
Lars Elmvang wrote in message .. . Hi all I am trying to find out which numbers go where. So far I have this list, based on some lines: Bakerloo: Possibly 2xx but not sure Central: Don't know Circle: 201-214? District: 0xx (D-stock-trains) but what about the Wimbledon-Edgware Road services? 061-07? Wimbledon - Edgware Rd 151-152 (I think) Olympia- H St Ken. East London: 171-176 Hammersmith & City: Don't know (unless it is 2xx above 214) Jubilee: 3xx Metropolitan: 4xx Northern: 0xx Piccadilly: 3xx Victoria: 2xx Waterloo & City: 201-204 Specials and engineering trains 7xx How far "off-track" am I? And can anyone expand the list? For instance with service-specific numbers (ie. Olympia for District, Uxbrigde/Ruislip/Rayners Lane for Piccadilly, Mill Hill East/High Barnet/Edgware/City/Charing Cross for Northern and so on and so forth...) Thanks in advance! Bakerloo are 200 to somewhere in the 240s. The numbers sometimes relate to the stabling arrangements, for example Bakerloo 241 is the London Road midday stabler. The circle and H&C have a shared number series, I think. The picc numbers were in the following series (in 1999): 250 - 257, 260 Cockfosters to Rayners Lane 261 - 267, 270 - 272 Cockfosters to Uxbridge 273 Spare at Acton Town (midday) 274 - 277 Northfields Midday Stablers 300 - 307, 310 - 317, 320 - 327, 330 - 337, 340 - 343 Cockfosters to Heathrow 347 Acton Town Overnight stabler 351 - 357, 360 - 366 Arnos Grove to Northfields 371 - 373 Cockfosters Midday Stablers When running an emergency timetable the picc runs Cockfosters to Heathrow (400 series) and Acton to Rayners Lane (500 series). The vic emergency numbering is in the 000s, and I think the district emergency series is in the 300s. I can't help with the others; I've never seen the bakerloo run an emergency timetable and don't remember the central's series. -- Lawrence Myers Remove numbers,if present, from address to reply. |
Train-numbers on the LU
"Roger the cabin boy" writes...
Nope it has changed "recently" Presumably when they increased the frequency of the Fast Amersham service? D. |
Train-numbers on the LU
David Splett wrote:
"Roger the cabin boy" writes... Nope it has changed "recently" Presumably when they increased the frequency of the Fast Amersham service? How recent is "recent"? The pictures I've seen is from 27-05-2002 p36 in London Underground Rolling Stock 15ed. (402) and a no-date picture at p41 in the same book (401) -- Lars Elmvang ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Min mailadresse finder du ved kun at skrive det overeksponerede domænenavn én gang |
Train-numbers on the LU
err, 2 days ago
|
Train-numbers on the LU
Roger the cabin boy wrote:
err, 2 days ago Was the timetable change 2 days ago? -- Lars Elmvang ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Min mailadresse finder du ved kun at skrive det overeksponerede domænenavn én gang |
Train-numbers on the LU
) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying : I'll have to look at the program machine roll and check what is used - I think it just uses plain binary. Given that the first digit seems to indicate the line, and from Thomas Crame's post stating it's octal hence no 8 or 9, it would seem that 3-bit BCD would make sense. |
Train-numbers on the LU
I can't help with the others; I've never seen the bakerloo run an
emergency timetable and don't remember the central's series. The Bakerloo emergency service is usually split in 2 Elephant - Queens Park with trains numbered 001-017 never seen more than 17 trains in that section and Harrow - Queens Park (reversing out of service via Kilburn High Road) the trains used on this bit, never more than 3, keep their original numbers. Normal Bakerloo numbers are generally allocated to depot starters in time order, or so it says in my timetable 201-214 Stonebridge Park 221-223 Queens Park North Sheds 224-227 Queens Park South Sheds 231-242 London Road 245-247 Elephant With 251, 252, 253 as Stonebridge Park to Elephant changeover trains running down out of service each night. Colin |
Train-numbers on the LU
In article , Peter Smyth
writes Is there a reason why the don't use numbers ending in 8 or 9? As other posts have said, the programme machines work in binary, shown as octal in the train numbers. To represent a digit from 0 to 7 requires three sets of circuits. To represent a digit from 0 to 9 requires four sets of circuits. So the fourth circuit gives only a 20% growth in numbers for a 33% growth in complexity. More precisely: Octal: 6 circuits give 64 train numbers 7 circuits give 128 train numbers 8 circuits give 256 train numbers Decimal: 6 circuits give 40 train numbers 7 circuits give 80 train numbers 8 circuits give 100 train numbers 9 circuits give 200 train numbers If you were designing and costing it, which would you choose? [Note that there's no need to do arithmetic in the system, so there's no issue with remembering that the number after 77 is 100, for example.] -- Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address |
Train-numbers on the LU
writes:
(Adrian) wrote: In normal Binary, 16 is 10000, but in BCD each decimal digit is coded separately in four-bit Binary, so 16 would be 0001 0110 - which is why it's called Binary Coded Decimal. Sorry, my mistake. I forgot about that. I'll have to look at the programme machine roll and check what is used - I think it just uses plain binary. I have the answer, Roger: it is Binary-Coded Decimal. A few years ago I went on an arranged visit to Cobourg Street Control Centre and East Finchley Signal Cabin [1] and, being a keen sort of chap, was invited to write an essay on the visit for the members' quarterly journal CHTbulletin. [1] - A group tour run by Cravens Heritage Trains for some of its members. I have pasted into this article the relevant section of that essay [with some minor clarifications -- Ed]. With reference to the question under discussion, the answer is in the 5th line from the bottom: ---------- begin quote ------------------------ A word about programme machines. Each of these consists of a roll of "Melinex" plastic with holes punched in it; as the day progresses, the roll is spooled from one drum to the other past the reader. Saturday and Sunday information is located beyond the end of the weekday information on the roll, so rewinding is done at 0200 _only_ on Sunday to Thursday nights. Each row of holes relates to a given movement for one train (the machine we were shown was for departures from Edgware). Around thirty "tracks" are arranged across the width of the roll, each of which may or may not have a hole punched in it on any given row; the presence of a hole in any given track is detected electrically by one of a row of contacts in the reader, and the Working Timetable information thus encoded is transferred to the signalling system. The first holes or tracks impart timing information in binary format (with the most significant "hours" digit being 8, the machines working in a sort of crude double-twelve-hour format), down to half-minutes at track eleven. At the other edge of the roll is Train Number information, whose available digits are 100, 100, 40, 20, 10, 4, 2 and 1: this explains the lack of 8s and 9s in Northern Line train numbers! In the central part of the roll is a destination code, and the all-important signalling tracks (e.g., if a hole is punched in track 12 then the signal for "plat 3 to SB" will clear). ---------- end quote ------------------------- We see that Train Numbers are encoded using bits 200, 100; 40, 20, 10; and 4, 2, 1. This allows Train Numbers to be encoded that lie within the range 000 to 377, so long as the digit in the units and tens column is neither an 8 nor a 9. There appears to be no way for the Programme Machine to store and transmit a Train Number in the 4xx or 7xx series; I'm pretty sure I asked about this at the time, and was told that as these are special workings they would be entered manually from Cobourg Street anyway. (I have a trio of rings of Train Numbers off a scrap 1959ts train, which are still set to "736" which was Golders Green to Ruislip depots.) With "." being plain Melinex and "O" being a hole in it, we can translate the following examples thus: .. . . . . . . . == 0 0 0 O O O O O O O O == 3 7 7 .. O . O O O . . == 1 3 4 O . O . . . O O == 2 4 3 (Only the Train Number section of the roll is shown here, with four rows shown; the roll would scroll upwards or downwards relative to this article. ISTR the Train Number holes are actually laid out with the *least*-significant digit at the left.) The only thing that I may have mis-interpreted is whether a *hole* or a "non-hole" represents a binary "1"; seeing as I had to inspect my photograph (currently buried somewhere in clutter-heap!) of the programme-machine very carefully in order to determine what each track was for, when writing the essay, I hope that it is unlikely. HTH, -- Richard Griffin http://www.squarewheels.org.uk/ "It seems that, nowadays, there is no NOUN that cannot be VERBED!" -- Professor Griffin, University of Cambridge |
Train-numbers on the LU
I will try to sum up what we got so far then.......
Gentlemen, still holes to fill out ;-) Bakerloo: 201-213/214 Stonebridge Park depot starters 221-223 Queen's Park North shed starters 224-227 Queen's Park South shed starters 231-242 London Road depot starters 245-247 Elephant sidings starters 251-254 London Road-Elephant changeovers or 251-253 Stonebridge Park-Elephant & Castle changeovers Central: (WTT60 - when is this timetable from?) 1-23 Epping-West Ruislip 31-41 Woodford-Ealing via Hainault 50-57 Hainault-Ealing Broadway 61-67 (Mon-Sat) Loughton-North Acton 61-65 (Sun) White City-Leytonstone 71-76 (Mon-Sat) Newbury Park-White City 101-111 Ruislip depot midday stablers 121-122 White City depot midday stablers 141-154 Hainault depot midday stablers 480 Hainault depot midday route learning/rusty rails train Circle: 201-207 Circle Outer rail 211-217 Circle Inner rail District: 0xx (D-stock) Wimbledon - Edgware Road: 061-07x (maybe 076) (However 10 trains are required for the service, 9 in the mornings and 10 in the afternoon, and one midday stabler (at Hammersmith H&C)) High Street Kensington - Kensington (Olympia): 151-152 (and of course also when they run to and from Ealing Common Depot) East London: 171-176??? Hammersmith & City: 221-24x Jubilee: (WTT6 - when is this timetable from?) Monday-Friday: 301-343 Stanmore/Wembley/Willesden Grn-Stratford 350-354 Neasden midday stablers 360-366 Stratford midday stablers 370 Peak spare Saturday/Sunday: 301-334 Stanmore-Stratford 340-353 Wembley Park/Willesden Grn-Stratford Metropolitan: (No timetable given, but apparantly obsoleted.....) 401-404 Amersham-Baker St 407 Chesham shuttle 420-435 Uxbridge-Aldgate 440-451 Watford-Baker Street 460-476 Neasden midday stablers 470-473 Neasden-Rickmansworth transfer 710 Rail Adhesion Train 711-712 Rickmansworth/Amersham test train 713 Uxbridge test train 714-717 Turning trips Northern: (WTT48 - when is this timetable from?) 1-11 Edgware starters 21-33 Golders starters 40-47 Barnet starters 51-64 Highgate starters 71-131 Morden starters 141-155 Morden midday stablers 161-173 Golders midday stablers 174 Golders evening peak starter 730 Golders-Highgate transfer 731-2 Golders-Golders turning trip 733 Golders-Morden transfer 734 Morden-Golders transfer Piccadilly: 3xx In 1999 as follows: 250 - 257, 260 Cockfosters to Rayners Lane 261 - 267, 270 - 272 Cockfosters to Uxbridge 273 Spare at Acton Town (midday) 274 - 277 Northfields Midday Stablers 300 - 307, 310 - 317, 320 - 327, 330 - 337, 340 - 343 Cockfosters to Heathrow 347 Acton Town Overnight stabler 351 - 357, 360 - 366 Arnos Grove to Northfields 371 - 373 Cockfosters Midday Stablers Victoria: 2xx Waterloo & City: 201-204 Specials and engineering trains: 7xx -- Lars Elmvang ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My mailadress is found by only writing the over-exposed domain-name once |
Train-numbers on the LU
Richard Griffin wrote in message ...
writes: (Adrian) wrote: In normal Binary, 16 is 10000, but in BCD each decimal digit is coded separately in four-bit Binary, so 16 would be 0001 0110 - which is why it's called Binary Coded Decimal. Sorry, my mistake. I forgot about that. I'll have to look at the programme machine roll and check what is used - I think it just uses plain binary. I have the answer, Roger: it is Binary-Coded Decimal. A few years ago I went on an arranged visit to Cobourg Street Control Centre and East Finchley Signal Cabin [1] and, being a keen sort of chap, was invited to write an essay on the visit for the members' quarterly journal CHTbulletin. [1] - A group tour run by Cravens Heritage Trains for some of its members. I have pasted into this article the relevant section of that essay [with some minor clarifications -- Ed]. With reference to the question under discussion, the answer is in the 5th line from the bottom: ---------- begin quote ------------------------ A word about programme machines. Each of these consists of a roll of "Melinex" plastic with holes punched in it; as the day progresses, the roll is spooled from one drum to the other past the reader. Saturday and Sunday information is located beyond the end of the weekday information on the roll, so rewinding is done at 0200 _only_ on Sunday to Thursday nights. Each row of holes relates to a given movement for one train (the machine we were shown was for departures from Edgware). So how come I've got an LUL engineering standard, last revised in 2000, saying the codes are in octal numbering? Rewind time (or end of traffic day) on all LT centralised control systems is 0300, having spent many nights half - asleep waiting for the appointed hour. The programme machine is not fail-safe, and will not cause routes to clear. What it will do is call routes, the decision as to if they will clear or not is up to the safety signalling. The other thing I was wondering is how does a programme machine at Finchley Central call routes for trains departing from Edgware? |
Train-numbers on the LU
In article ,
(Thomas Crame) wrote: Richard Griffin wrote in message ... writes: (Adrian) wrote: In normal Binary, 16 is 10000, but in BCD each decimal digit is coded separately in four-bit Binary, so 16 would be 0001 0110 - which is why it's called Binary Coded Decimal. Sorry, my mistake. I forgot about that. I'll have to look at the programme machine roll and check what is used - I think it just uses plain binary. I have the answer, Roger: it is Binary-Coded Decimal. A few years ago I went on an arranged visit to Cobourg Street Control Centre and East Finchley Signal Cabin [1] and, being a keen sort of chap, was invited to write an essay on the visit for the members' quarterly journal CHTbulletin. [1] - A group tour run by Cravens Heritage Trains for some of its members. I have pasted into this article the relevant section of that essay [with some minor clarifications -- Ed]. With reference to the question under discussion, the answer is in the 5th line from the bottom: ---------- begin quote ------------------------ A word about programme machines. Each of these consists of a roll of "Melinex" plastic with holes punched in it; as the day progresses, the roll is spooled from one drum to the other past the reader. Saturday and Sunday information is located beyond the end of the weekday information on the roll, so rewinding is done at 0200 _only_ on Sunday to Thursday nights. Each row of holes relates to a given movement for one train (the machine we were shown was for departures from Edgware). So how come I've got an LUL engineering standard, last revised in 2000, saying the codes are in octal numbering? Rewind time (or end of traffic day) on all LT centralised control systems is 0300, having spent many nights half - asleep waiting for the appointed hour. The programme machine is not fail-safe, and will not cause routes to clear. What it will do is call routes, the decision as to if they will clear or not is up to the safety signalling. The other thing I was wondering is how does a programme machine at Finchley Central call routes for trains departing from Edgware? It doesn't - the programme machine roll and casing in question was at Cobourg Street - used for demonstration purposes. This was shown prior to the east Finchley visit. Roger |
Train-numbers on the LU
In article , (Richard
Griffin) wrote: writes: (Adrian) wrote: In normal Binary, 16 is 10000, but in BCD each decimal digit is coded separately in four-bit Binary, so 16 would be 0001 0110 - which is why it's called Binary Coded Decimal. Sorry, my mistake. I forgot about that. I'll have to look at the programme machine roll and check what is used - I think it just uses plain binary. I have the answer, Roger: it is Binary-Coded Decimal. A few years ago I went on an arranged visit to Cobourg Street Control Centre and East Finchley Signal Cabin [1] and, being a keen sort of chap, was invited to write an essay on the visit for the members' quarterly journal CHTbulletin. [1] - A group tour run by Cravens Heritage Trains for some of its members. I have pasted into this article the relevant section of that essay [with some minor clarifications -- Ed]. With reference to the question under discussion, the answer is in the 5th line from the bottom: ---------- begin quote ------------------------ A word about programme machines. Each of these consists of a roll of "Melinex" plastic with holes punched in it; as the day progresses, the roll is spooled from one drum to the other past the reader. Saturday and Sunday information is located beyond the end of the weekday information on the roll, so rewinding is done at 0200 _only_ on Sunday to Thursday nights. Each row of holes relates to a given movement for one train (the machine we were shown was for departures from Edgware). Around thirty "tracks" are arranged across the width of the roll, each of which may or may not have a hole punched in it on any given row; the presence of a hole in any given track is detected electrically by one of a row of contacts in the reader, and the Working Timetable information thus encoded is transferred to the signalling system. The first holes or tracks impart timing information in binary format (with the most significant "hours" digit being 8, the machines working in a sort of crude double-twelve-hour format), down to half-minutes at track eleven. At the other edge of the roll is Train Number information, whose available digits are 100, 100, 40, 20, 10, 4, 2 and 1: this explains the lack of 8s and 9s in Northern Line train numbers! In the central part of the roll is a destination code, and the all-important signalling tracks (e.g., if a hole is punched in track 12 then the signal for "plat 3 to SB" will clear). ---------- end quote ------------------------- We see that Train Numbers are encoded using bits 200, 100; 40, 20, 10; and 4, 2, 1. This allows Train Numbers to be encoded that lie within the range 000 to 377, so long as the digit in the units and tens column is neither an 8 nor a 9. There appears to be no way for the Programme Machine to store and transmit a Train Number in the 4xx or 7xx series; I'm pretty sure I asked about this at the time, and was told that as these are special workings they would be entered manually from Cobourg Street anyway. (I have a trio of rings of Train Numbers off a scrap 1959ts train, which are still set to "736" which was Golders Green to Ruislip depots.) Yes - anything that is in addition to the normal timetable would be manually entered by the signalman. This includes the additional paths such as the 4XX which are shown for stock transfers (and don't run on a regular basis anyway), the 310 and 330 which are used for the training train, plus all the other sundry odd paths such as the AVI train, track recording train etc. In theory, any number from 200 - 777 could be picked for a path, although I suppose there is a logic to it. The training train started off as 310, then I added 330 for the Saturday version. As long as nothing else is running with the same number, then that shouldn't be a problem. With the additional paths the signalman will normally fit the trains in as and when to suit the service. E.g. the training train has a specific timetable with a set time for each location, but as far as I'm concerned the only relevant times on it are those when it comes out of Morden depot in the morning and starts from the siding at Golders Green after meal relief. With "." being plain Melinex and "O" being a hole in it, we can translate the following examples thus: . . . . . . . . == 0 0 0 O O O O O O O O == 3 7 7 . O . O O O . . == 1 3 4 O . O . . . O O == 2 4 3 (Only the Train Number section of the roll is shown here, with four rows shown; the roll would scroll upwards or downwards relative to this article. ISTR the Train Number holes are actually laid out with the *least*-significant digit at the left.) The only thing that I may have mis-interpreted is whether a *hole* or a "non-hole" represents a binary "1"; seeing as I had to inspect my photograph (currently buried somewhere in clutter-heap!) of the programme-machine very carefully in order to determine what each track was for, when writing the essay, I hope that it is unlikely. When demonstrating the programme roll to trainees, I define the "1" as being the hole. This matches up with everything. If the "1" is defined as the space, then that will give all sorts of weird answers! The said roll at Cobourg St. used to have the ID for each group of holes shown, but that has now disappeared. I think the roll is from the S1 machine at Edgware which controls the SB departures. Roger HTH, -- Richard Griffin http://www.squarewheels.org.uk/ "It seems that, nowadays, there is no NOUN that cannot be VERBED!" -- Professor Griffin, University of Cambridge |
Train-numbers on the LU
(Thomas Crame) writes:
Richard Griffin wrote: I have the answer, Roger: it is Binary-Coded Decimal. So how come I've got an LUL engineering standard, last revised in 2000, saying the codes are in octal numbering? Because it's true for the Train Numbers themselves. Train Numbers ARE Octal, being in base 8: as you know, they run from 0 (theoretically) up to 7, and then jump straight to 10, and so on. I presume octal notation was chosen to save having a nearly-redundant fourth bit (for the 8s column) in two extra tracks in the programme machine. However, at programme-machine level they are encoded in what I suppose must be called Binary-Coded Octal. Binary, because a "hole" or a "no-hole" can only store and provide information in binary form; and "-Coded Octal" because each digit of the octal number is encoded separately rather than treating the whole three-digit number as one unit. Sorry for calling it Binary-Coded Decimal, where the Decimal bit was misleading. I'm speculating that using binary-coded digits (rather than pure binary) may also have been chosen as it would interface better with Positive Train Identification and its forerunners. Using primitive crew-operated electromechanical devices to transmit a variable train number, binary-coded digits would be much easier than pure binary (the latter requiring either the operator, e.g. motorman, to enter his train number in Binary (!) or for a computer to be present). The Westinghouse PTI transmitting-equipment as fitted to 1959/72 stock was very simple. Rewind time (or end of traffic day) on all LT centralised control systems is 0300, Thanks for that. The programme machine is not fail-safe, and will not cause routes to clear. What it will do is call routes, the decision as to if they will clear or not is up to the safety signalling. Sure. I should re-word the article to make it apparent that a hole for "plat 3 to SB" doesn't actually clear the signal directly, merely attempts to pull the relevant lever in the IMR when the electrical interlocking allows. Is that correct? (Though AIUI, only some of the Northern Line's ElectroPneumatic IMRs are still in use, others being solid state replacements -- is this true?) The other thing I was wondering is how does a programme machine at Finchley Central call routes for trains departing from Edgware? I didn't actually say it did, though I can see how you were mis-led. BTW it was East Finchley (NP) IMR we visited. Roger has the answer I was going to give. Cheers, Richard. -- http://www.squarewheels.org.uk/ |
Train-numbers on the LU
writes:
Yes - anything that is in addition to the normal timetable would be manually entered by the signalman. Good; thanks for that. Richard Griffin wrote: The only thing that I may have mis-interpreted is whether a *hole* or a "non-hole" represents a binary "1"; When demonstrating the programme roll to trainees, I define the "1" as being the hole. This matches up with everything. If the "1" is defined as the space, then that will give all sorts of weird answers! Okay. I expect I sat studying my photo of it, trying to work out the values represented by the Time Coincidence tracks, and seeing which way round gave sensible answers! The said roll at Cobourg St. used to have the ID for each group of holes shown, As it does in my photo. In a whirlwind of unusual getting-things-done activity, I've just dug out the photo, scanned it, and written a little webpage around it. It's only temporary at present, and it's at: http://www.squarewheels.org.uk/tmp/programme-machine/ TTFN, Richard. -- http://www.squarewheels.org.uk/ |
Train-numbers on the LU
The Bakerloo Line numbers start with 201 and complete with 254, although
they can be extended if required. Stonebridge Park Depot prepares 16 trains for service each night, 13 of these 201-213 go into service from Stonebridge Park itself, whilst 252, 253 and 254 are prepped at Stonebridge and are then returned to Elephant and Castle from where they will enter service in the morning Bakerloo BadBoy "Lars Elmvang" wrote in message ... Hi all I am trying to find out which numbers go where. So far I have this list, based on some lines: Bakerloo: Possibly 2xx but not sure Central: Don't know Circle: 201-214? District: 0xx (D-stock-trains) but what about the Wimbledon-Edgware Road services? East London: 171-176 Hammersmith & City: Don't know (unless it is 2xx above 214) Jubilee: 3xx Metropolitan: 4xx Northern: 0xx Piccadilly: 3xx Victoria: 2xx Waterloo & City: 201-204 Specials and engineering trains 7xx How far "off-track" am I? And can anyone expand the list? For instance with service-specific numbers (ie. Olympia for District, Uxbrigde/Ruislip/Rayners Lane for Piccadilly, Mill Hill East/High Barnet/Edgware/City/Charing Cross for Northern and so on and so forth...) Thanks in advance! -- Lars Elmvang -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- My mailadress is found by only writing the over-exposed domainname once |
Train-numbers on the LU
Richard Griffin wrote in message ...
(Thomas Crame) writes: Richard Griffin wrote: I have the answer, Roger: it is Binary-Coded Decimal. So how come I've got an LUL engineering standard, last revised in 2000, saying the codes are in octal numbering? Because it's true for the Train Numbers themselves. Train Numbers ARE Octal, being in base 8: as you know, they run from 0 (theoretically) up to 7, and then jump straight to 10, and so on. I presume octal notation was chosen to save having a nearly-redundant fourth bit (for the 8s column) in two extra tracks in the programme machine. However, at programme-machine level they are encoded in what I suppose must be called Binary-Coded Octal. Binary, because a "hole" or a "no-hole" can only store and provide information in binary form; and "-Coded Octal" because each digit of the octal number is encoded separately rather than treating the whole three-digit number as one unit. Sorry for calling it Binary-Coded Decimal, where the Decimal bit was misleading. I'm speculating that using binary-coded digits (rather than pure binary) may also have been chosen as it would interface better with Positive Train Identification and its forerunners. Using primitive crew-operated electromechanical devices to transmit a variable train number, binary-coded digits would be much easier than pure binary (the latter requiring either the operator, e.g. motorman, to enter his train number in Binary (!) or for a computer to be present). The Westinghouse PTI transmitting-equipment as fitted to 1959/72 stock was very simple. Rewind time (or end of traffic day) on all LT centralised control systems is 0300, Thanks for that. The programme machine is not fail-safe, and will not cause routes to clear. What it will do is call routes, the decision as to if they will clear or not is up to the safety signalling. Sure. I should re-word the article to make it apparent that a hole for "plat 3 to SB" doesn't actually clear the signal directly, merely attempts to pull the relevant lever in the IMR when the electrical interlocking allows. Is that correct? (Though AIUI, only some of the Northern Line's ElectroPneumatic IMRs are still in use, others being solid state replacements -- is this true?) I'm trying to remember how the system works (without my cheat sheet) If it's a scan site with p/mc (which East Finchley is) the P/Mc contact making will put a feed on the RUM (route stick unit) if the appropriate YUPR relay is up. The RUM puts a feed to the Lever Op Board which will give an o/p to the RLM (lever valve) if all other conditions have been made, so yes. Though I would say "puffed" instead of pulled, but that's just because it's in remote control. I believe all the IMRs are still in use, but some of the P/Mc sites at the south have been converted to other methods of control. The other thing I was wondering is how does a programme machine at Finchley Central call routes for trains departing from Edgware? I didn't actually say it did, though I can see how you were mis-led. BTW it was East Finchley (NP) IMR we visited. Roger has the answer I was going to give. Cheers, Richard. |
Train-numbers on the LU
In article , Richard Griffin
writes "-Coded Octal" because each digit of the octal number is encoded separately rather than treating the whole three-digit number as one unit. In octal it's the same thing. Sure. I should re-word the article to make it apparent that a hole for "plat 3 to SB" doesn't actually clear the signal directly, merely attempts to pull the relevant lever in the IMR when the electrical interlocking allows. Is that correct? (Though AIUI, only some of the Northern Line's ElectroPneumatic IMRs are still in use, others being solid state replacements -- is this true?) According to the book I'm looking at right now, the programme machine, train describer logic, or the control panel push buttons all set a route relay. The relay might work several signals according to track circuit occupation; the relevant circuit powers the pneumatics for the IMR. All the IMR-drive circuits also repeat the mechanical interlocking in the electrical (that is, if levers 1 and 2 lock each other normal, the 2R circuit will go through a relay driven off 1 being normal and vice versa). This means that the mechanical interlocking will not be stressed by the pneumatic drives. The programme machine roll is shown as 30 data tracks in two sets of 15, with two control tracks, one punched in every row and one punched only at the end of the row, between the sets. In the diagram, the left hand set has 7 tracks used - 4 for the local train describer and 3 for three possible routes. The right had set is: - punched for first and last rows - unused - 4 tracks for train describer code to be transmitted on - unused - 8 tracks for train number, with the 200 bit on the left and the 1 bit at the edge of the roll. Other machines either have an interval field (5 holes, for 8,4,2,1, and 0.5 minutes) indicating how long to wait before moving the roll, or a time code (11 holes, 8h,4h,2h,1h,32m,16m,8m,4m,2m,1m, and 0.5m) indicating when to act on the remainder of the code. A photo of a roll, however, doesn't agree with either. On the left side, the first 7 bits are the destination code in some manner; matching with the text typed on the roll, it says: 1000010 Morden Golders Grn. via B. 1111100 Morden High Barnet via C.X. 0011001 Kennington Edgware via C.X. On the right hand side: - tracks 1 and 2 alternate - track 5 is punched for the Kennington trains and one other - tracks 10 to 13 are punched with values that don't correlate with either the train numbers (which include 9s) or the times. In sequence, the codes are 7,6,4,3,2,11,10,9,13,1,5,15,14,12,8,7,6,4,3,2 -- Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address |
Train-numbers on the LU
JRS: In article , seen in
news:uk.transport.london, Peter Smyth posted at Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:00:10 :- "Thomas Crame" wrote in message . com... The circle and H&C have a shared number series, I think. The picc numbers were in the following series (in 1999): 250 - 257, 260 Cockfosters to Rayners Lane 261 - 267, 270 - 272 Cockfosters to Uxbridge 273 Spare at Acton Town (midday) 274 - 277 Northfields Midday Stablers 300 - 307, 310 - 317, 320 - 327, 330 - 337, 340 - 343 Cockfosters to Heathrow 347 Acton Town Overnight stabler 351 - 357, 360 - 366 Arnos Grove to Northfields 371 - 373 Cockfosters Midday Stablers Is there a reason why the don't use numbers ending in 8 or 9? Trains, as you know, are made up of carriages. Generally, these have a bogie at each end, two axles on each bogie, and two wheels on each axle - i.e. eight wheels in all. That is why they count in octal. -- © John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v4.00 MIME. © Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms PAS EXE etc : URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/ - see 00index.htm Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc. |
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