On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 13:26:09 +0000, Someone Somewhere
wrote:

On 14/11/2015 10:26, Recliner wrote:


In any case, the old escalator was wood-panelled, which wouldn't have
affected the weight of the moving parts. They could have fitted a second
escalator in the same space, but that wouldn't help people in wheel chairs.
As it is, the able-bodied will be able to ascend using the other escalator,
but are expected to walk down the stairs when arriving at the station.

These inclined lifts are apparently much cheaper than conventional lifts,
and are a cost-effective way of providing step-free access in stations that
have multiple staircases but no convenient place for a vertical lift shaft.


I have to say that it cannot be beyond the wit of man to come up with
some kind of "carriage" that fits on an escalator that allows
wheelchairs to be conveyed up and down with minimal interruption to the
journeys of others.

You need a flat platform for the wheelchair to roll on to, some kind of
mechanism like they have on stretchers to go into ambulances but with a
graduated rather than step mechanism, some kind of braking and some self
levelling. The user and their wheelchair could be loaded on to the
carriage someway away from the top or bottom of the escalator and then
the thing could be maneuvered (or act like a roomba - a bit of vacuuming
of a lot of stations wouldn't go amiss either) onto the esclator.

I accept it may require a "helper" of some description but given the
closure of ticket offices, there are meant to be TfL employees out in
the wild who could help.

Even if such a thing cost £100k per station that's a shedload cheaper
than a new lift...

Somehow, I can't imagine the H&S people approving something like
that...

In message , at 13:38:35 on
Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Recliner remarked:
You need a flat platform for the wheelchair to roll on to, some kind of
mechanism like they have on stretchers to go into ambulances but with a
graduated rather than step mechanism, some kind of braking and some self
levelling. The user and their wheelchair could be loaded on to the
carriage someway away from the top or bottom of the escalator and then
the thing could be maneuvered (or act like a roomba - a bit of vacuuming
of a lot of stations wouldn't go amiss either) onto the esclator.

I accept it may require a "helper" of some description but given the
closure of ticket offices, there are meant to be TfL employees out in
the wild who could help.

Even if such a thing cost £100k per station that's a shedload cheaper
than a new lift...

Somehow, I can't imagine the H&S people approving something like
that...

How does it differ from a trolley loaded with 50kg of shopping which
locks itself onto a Sainsbury's/Adsa inclined travelator, and rarely
fails such that it careers down into whoever is in front.

--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 13:41:22 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:38:35 on
Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Recliner remarked:
You need a flat platform for the wheelchair to roll on to, some kind of
mechanism like they have on stretchers to go into ambulances but with a
graduated rather than step mechanism, some kind of braking and some self
levelling. The user and their wheelchair could be loaded on to the
carriage someway away from the top or bottom of the escalator and then
the thing could be maneuvered (or act like a roomba - a bit of vacuuming
of a lot of stations wouldn't go amiss either) onto the esclator.

I accept it may require a "helper" of some description but given the
closure of ticket offices, there are meant to be TfL employees out in
the wild who could help.

Even if such a thing cost £100k per station that's a shedload cheaper
than a new lift...

Somehow, I can't imagine the H&S people approving something like
that...

How does it differ from a trolley loaded with 50kg of shopping which
locks itself onto a Sainsbury's/Adsa inclined travelator, and rarely
fails such that it careers down into whoever is in front.

A smooth travelator is a lot easier than sliding steps. And a
wheelchair with a disabled person on board needs more protection than
a trolley (or luggage) on an inclined travelator.

On 14/11/2015 13:26, Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 14/11/2015 10:26, Recliner wrote:


In any case, the old escalator was wood-panelled, which wouldn't have
affected the weight of the moving parts. They could have fitted a second
escalator in the same space, but that wouldn't help people in wheel
chairs.
As it is, the able-bodied will be able to ascend using the other
escalator,
but are expected to walk down the stairs when arriving at the station.

These inclined lifts are apparently much cheaper than conventional lifts,
and are a cost-effective way of providing step-free access in stations
that
have multiple staircases but no convenient place for a vertical lift
shaft.


I have to say that it cannot be beyond the wit of man to come up with
some kind of "carriage" that fits on an escalator that allows
wheelchairs to be conveyed up and down with minimal interruption to the
journeys of others.

You need a flat platform for the wheelchair to roll on to, some kind of
mechanism like they have on stretchers to go into ambulances but with a
graduated rather than step mechanism, some kind of braking and some self
levelling. The user and their wheelchair could be loaded on to the
carriage someway away from the top or bottom of the escalator and then
the thing could be maneuvered (or act like a roomba - a bit of vacuuming
of a lot of stations wouldn't go amiss either) onto the esclator.

Sounds horrendously complicated, it would have to have a self-contained
power source to drive the self-levelling mechanism. The stretcher
mehacnism doesn't have to cope with a support that is moving away from
it while the leg are being adjusted. If the pivoted leg tucks under the
base then it would only work on the uphill section.


I accept it may require a "helper" of some description but given the
closure of ticket offices, there are meant to be TfL employees out in
the wild who could help.

Even if such a thing cost £100k per station that's a shedload cheaper
than a new lift...

Is it? How much was the lift at Greenford?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.

"Recliner" wrote

Somehow, I can't imagine the H&S people approving something like
that...

How does it differ from a trolley loaded with 50kg of shopping which
locks itself onto a Sainsbury's/Adsa inclined travelator, and rarely
fails such that it careers down into whoever is in front.

A smooth travelator is a lot easier than sliding steps. And a
wheelchair with a disabled person on board needs more protection than
a trolley (or luggage) on an inclined travelator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving...y#Supermarkets
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopping_cart_conveyor

Can wheelchairs use them ?

If not, every supermarket wheeled trolley is of similar design and has been
inspected for suitability.

Wheelchairs differ in size, weight and design.


--
Mike D

On Saturday, 14 November 2015 13:25:58 UTC, Someone Somewhere wrote:

I have to say that it cannot be beyond the wit of man to come up with
some kind of "carriage" that fits on an escalator that allows
wheelchairs to be conveyed up and down with minimal interruption to the
journeys of others.

I accept it may require a "helper" of some description but given the
closure of ticket offices, there are meant to be TfL employees out in
the wild who could help.

I am WITH you there. The lift at Hainault, all 61cm of it, shows that there is something wrong. I also saw one of these lifts in a Wetherspoon's pub in Streatham. It was the Holland Tringham. But there must be a simpler was of getting wheelchaired people up short distances.

In message , at 13:44:41 on
Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Recliner remarked:
You need a flat platform for the wheelchair to roll on to, some kind of
mechanism like they have on stretchers to go into ambulances but with a
graduated rather than step mechanism, some kind of braking and some self
levelling. The user and their wheelchair could be loaded on to the
carriage someway away from the top or bottom of the escalator and then
the thing could be maneuvered (or act like a roomba - a bit of vacuuming
of a lot of stations wouldn't go amiss either) onto the esclator.

I accept it may require a "helper" of some description but given the
closure of ticket offices, there are meant to be TfL employees out in
the wild who could help.

Even if such a thing cost £100k per station that's a shedload cheaper
than a new lift...

Somehow, I can't imagine the H&S people approving something like
that...

How does it differ from a trolley loaded with 50kg of shopping which
locks itself onto a Sainsbury's/Adsa inclined travelator, and rarely
fails such that it careers down into whoever is in front.

A smooth travelator is a lot easier than sliding steps.

Steps are easier because the surface you are gripping is horizontal.

And a wheelchair with a disabled person on board needs more protection
than a trolley (or luggage) on an inclined travelator.

It the person ahead, lower on the slope, who needs the protection
(whether from a shopping trolley or a person in a chair).
--
Roland Perry

On 2015\11\14 13:38, Recliner wrote:
On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 13:26:09 +0000, Someone Somewhere
wrote:

I have to say that it cannot be beyond the wit of man to come up with
some kind of "carriage" that fits on an escalator that allows
wheelchairs to be conveyed up and down with minimal interruption to the
journeys of others.

You need a flat platform for the wheelchair to roll on to, some kind of
mechanism like they have on stretchers to go into ambulances but with a
graduated rather than step mechanism, some kind of braking and some self
levelling. The user and their wheelchair could be loaded on to the
carriage someway away from the top or bottom of the escalator and then
the thing could be maneuvered (or act like a roomba - a bit of vacuuming
of a lot of stations wouldn't go amiss either) onto the esclator.

I accept it may require a "helper" of some description but given the
closure of ticket offices, there are meant to be TfL employees out in
the wild who could help.

Even if such a thing cost £100k per station that's a shedload cheaper
than a new lift...

Somehow, I can't imagine the H&S people approving something like
that...

If something goes wrong, the person could end up in a wheelchair...

Roland Perry wrote:
In message e.net, at
10:29:44 on Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Mark Goodge
remarked:
I'm a little surprised that they claim it uses less power than a
conventional lift. If you have to raise a given mass through a
given vertical distance, shouldn't the answer be the same?

That assumes 100% efficiency in the mechanism. Not a safe assumption.

Yes, I agree about the *energy* consumption. But perhaps it gets away with
a less powerful motor, as it's slower than a normal lift.

In addition, the fact it's sliding down rails rather than hanging in
free space may alter the efficiency of the mechanism.

Yes. A simple thought experiment works here. It clearly requires less
energy to push a wheeled object horizontally than it does to lift it
vertically. So there's clearly also a continuum between 0 degrees = least
energy and 90 degrees (from the horizontal) = most energy, and therefore
something like 45 degrees = somewhere in between the two.

If it's the same weight, and with the same frictional losses as a
conventional lift, it would take the same energy to make the journey
[gaining potential energy in the process].

If the journey takes longer, the *power* (energy/time) would be less.

But it's complicated by the presence (or absence) of a counterweight,
which transfers its energy to the lift (and vice versa).

What the chap in the video is probably saying is that (without having
really thought about the physics himself) that the wattage plate on the
motor is less than you'd expect to find on a lift motor.

Yes, I agree. It probably has a less powerful motor than a vertical lift,
but because of the extra friction, uses more energy. But the extra energy
cost is probably trivial compared to the capital saving from not needing a
new vertical lift shaft.

Incidentally, for those who don't know the station, the
stairs/escalator/inclinator are right at the western end of the island
platforms, so the station building is beyond the end. If they'd fitted a
vertical lift, it would have popped up well beyond the western platform
ends, with the horizontal route to the platforms blocked by the stairs,
shaft etc. The inclinometer is a nifty and cost-effective way of dealing
with this problem.

I do hope I'll be able to spot whether or not there's a counter-weight when
I take a look at it.

On 2015\11\14 09:09, Recliner wrote:
Chris J Dixon wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxScXvX1Dv4

I'm a little surprised that they claim it uses less power than a
conventional lift. If you have to raise a given mass through a
given vertical distance, shouldn't the answer be the same?

Yes, I agree about the *energy* consumption. But perhaps it gets away with
a less powerful motor, as it's slower than a normal lift. I assume it has
a counterbalance like a normal lift? I'll see if I can tell when I go to
see it on Monday. Of course, the balance weight may be hidden, as it is
with many normal lifts.

It is yellow and clearly visible in the video above at 1:21.