Basil Jet wrote:
On 2016\01\12 00:57, Basil Jet wrote:

I can't argue with any of that!

Another idea... the Greenford Branch is set to become a shuttle from
West Ealing in 2017. Although the frequency will go up from 2tph to
4tph, the curtailment could kill the line off.

With the demolition of parts of two light industrial premises and the
construction of a new curve by North Acton and another curve from
Willesden Junction High Level to Kensal Green, they could run 2tph from
West Ealing - DG - CBP - South Greenford - new platform at North Acton -
Willesden Junction High Level - KG - QP - KHR - SH - Euston. The other
2tph would run West Ealing - Greenford.


Well, that's certainly a creative way to link that orphan shuttle to LO,
where it probably does belong. But it would also be quite expensive,
involving two new chords, some redoubled track and electrification. Would a
five car 378 fit in the Greenford and West Ealing bay platforms? And is
there much demand for a 2 tph service from the Greenford route to Euston?

Wouldn't most potential pax prefer to change to the frequent Central line
at Greenford to get into town more quickly? It does seem like another
solution in search of a problem.

On 2016\01\12 22:40, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:

Another idea... the Greenford Branch is set to become a shuttle from
West Ealing in 2017. Although the frequency will go up from 2tph to
4tph, the curtailment could kill the line off.

With the demolition of parts of two light industrial premises and the
construction of a new curve by North Acton and another curve from
Willesden Junction High Level to Kensal Green, they could run 2tph from
West Ealing - DG - CBP - South Greenford - new platform at North Acton -
Willesden Junction High Level - KG - QP - KHR - SH - Euston. The other
2tph would run West Ealing - Greenford.


Well, that's certainly a creative way to link that orphan shuttle to LO,
where it probably does belong. But it would also be quite expensive,
involving two new chords, some redoubled track and electrification.

It could be a job for IPEMU. The single track section from North Acton
to the Piccadilly Line bridge is only a mile long and would be no
problem for a 2tph service, or even a 4tph one. The Greenford East Curve
is also single but is even shorter.

Would a
five car 378 fit in the Greenford and West Ealing bay platforms? And is
there much demand for a 2 tph service from the Greenford route to Euston?

There's demand from everywhere to Central London. There is a place for
shuttles, particularly where the mainline is full, but trains to Central
London are better if the track is there, and here it mostly is.

Wouldn't most potential pax prefer to change to the frequent Central line
at Greenford to get into town more quickly?

More quickly? From South Greenford to Oxford Circus is 14 stops with 1
change at Greenford, or 9 stops with 1 change at Euston.
From South Greenford to Liverpool Street is 20 stops with 1 change at
Greenford, or 12 stops with 1 change at Euston.

It does seem like another solution in search of a problem.

The Greenford branch being cut off from Paddington is the problem.
Connecting it to Euston is the solution.

Basil Jet wrote:
On 2016\01\12 22:40, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:

Another idea... the Greenford Branch is set to become a shuttle from
West Ealing in 2017. Although the frequency will go up from 2tph to
4tph, the curtailment could kill the line off.

With the demolition of parts of two light industrial premises and the
construction of a new curve by North Acton and another curve from
Willesden Junction High Level to Kensal Green, they could run 2tph from
West Ealing - DG - CBP - South Greenford - new platform at North Acton -
Willesden Junction High Level - KG - QP - KHR - SH - Euston. The other
2tph would run West Ealing - Greenford.


Well, that's certainly a creative way to link that orphan shuttle to LO,
where it probably does belong. But it would also be quite expensive,
involving two new chords, some redoubled track and electrification.

It could be a job for IPEMU. The single track section from North Acton
to the Piccadilly Line bridge is only a mile long and would be no
problem for a 2tph service, or even a 4tph one. The Greenford East Curve
is also single but is even shorter.

Would a
five car 378 fit in the Greenford and West Ealing bay platforms? And is
there much demand for a 2 tph service from the Greenford route to Euston?

There's demand from everywhere to Central London. There is a place for
shuttles, particularly where the mainline is full, but trains to Central
London are better if the track is there, and here it mostly is.

Wouldn't most potential pax prefer to change to the frequent Central line
at Greenford to get into town more quickly?

More quickly? From South Greenford to Oxford Circus is 14 stops with 1
change at Greenford, or 9 stops with 1 change at Euston.
From South Greenford to Liverpool Street is 20 stops with 1 change at
Greenford, or 12 stops with 1 change at Euston.

Yes, but the stops are further apart, and the distance greater, so run
times will be similar or longer. The Central line is a lot more frequent,
even if it isn't actually quicker, and the cross-platform interchange at
Greenford is incredibly convenient compared to Euston.


It does seem like another solution in search of a problem.

The Greenford branch being cut off from Paddington is the problem.
Connecting it to Euston is the solution.

Well, the connections at West Ealing and Greenford aren't all that bad,
though of course worse than having a direct, if infrequent, train. Most pax
will be better off with a 4 tph shuttle than 2 tph direct to Paddington.

On 2016\01\13 00:22, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2016\01\12 22:40, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:

Another idea... the Greenford Branch is set to become a shuttle from
West Ealing in 2017. Although the frequency will go up from 2tph to
4tph, the curtailment could kill the line off.

With the demolition of parts of two light industrial premises and the
construction of a new curve by North Acton and another curve from
Willesden Junction High Level to Kensal Green, they could run 2tph from
West Ealing - DG - CBP - South Greenford - new platform at North Acton -
Willesden Junction High Level - KG - QP - KHR - SH - Euston. The other
2tph would run West Ealing - Greenford.


Well, that's certainly a creative way to link that orphan shuttle to LO,
where it probably does belong. But it would also be quite expensive,
involving two new chords, some redoubled track and electrification.

It could be a job for IPEMU. The single track section from North Acton
to the Piccadilly Line bridge is only a mile long and would be no
problem for a 2tph service, or even a 4tph one. The Greenford East Curve
is also single but is even shorter.

Would a
five car 378 fit in the Greenford and West Ealing bay platforms? And is
there much demand for a 2 tph service from the Greenford route to Euston?

There's demand from everywhere to Central London. There is a place for
shuttles, particularly where the mainline is full, but trains to Central
London are better if the track is there, and here it mostly is.

Wouldn't most potential pax prefer to change to the frequent Central line
at Greenford to get into town more quickly?

More quickly? From South Greenford to Oxford Circus is 14 stops with 1
change at Greenford, or 9 stops with 1 change at Euston.
From South Greenford to Liverpool Street is 20 stops with 1 change at
Greenford, or 12 stops with 1 change at Euston.

I shouldn't have picked a destination on Crossrail... South Greenford to
Liverpool Street is 10 stops with 1 change at West Ealing.


Yes, but the stops are further apart, and the distance greater, so run
times will be similar or longer. The Central line is a lot more frequent,
even if it isn't actually quicker, and the cross-platform interchange at
Greenford is incredibly convenient compared to Euston.


It does seem like another solution in search of a problem.

The Greenford branch being cut off from Paddington is the problem.
Connecting it to Euston is the solution.

Well, the connections at West Ealing and Greenford aren't all that bad,
though of course worse than having a direct, if infrequent, train. Most pax
will be better off with a 4 tph shuttle than 2 tph direct to Paddington.

You're overstating the indirect aspect. Look at
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...ions%20Map.pdf
and use a string or earphone cable to draw a straight line from North
Acton to, say, Kings Cross.

On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 01:33:11 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2016\01\13 00:22, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2016\01\12 22:40, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:

Another idea... the Greenford Branch is set to become a shuttle from
West Ealing in 2017. Although the frequency will go up from 2tph to
4tph, the curtailment could kill the line off.

With the demolition of parts of two light industrial premises and the
construction of a new curve by North Acton and another curve from
Willesden Junction High Level to Kensal Green, they could run 2tph from
West Ealing - DG - CBP - South Greenford - new platform at North Acton -
Willesden Junction High Level - KG - QP - KHR - SH - Euston. The other
2tph would run West Ealing - Greenford.


Well, that's certainly a creative way to link that orphan shuttle to LO,
where it probably does belong. But it would also be quite expensive,
involving two new chords, some redoubled track and electrification.

It could be a job for IPEMU. The single track section from North Acton
to the Piccadilly Line bridge is only a mile long and would be no
problem for a 2tph service, or even a 4tph one. The Greenford East Curve
is also single but is even shorter.

Would a
five car 378 fit in the Greenford and West Ealing bay platforms? And is
there much demand for a 2 tph service from the Greenford route to Euston?

There's demand from everywhere to Central London. There is a place for
shuttles, particularly where the mainline is full, but trains to Central
London are better if the track is there, and here it mostly is.

Wouldn't most potential pax prefer to change to the frequent Central line
at Greenford to get into town more quickly?

More quickly? From South Greenford to Oxford Circus is 14 stops with 1
change at Greenford, or 9 stops with 1 change at Euston.
From South Greenford to Liverpool Street is 20 stops with 1 change at
Greenford, or 12 stops with 1 change at Euston.

I shouldn't have picked a destination on Crossrail... South Greenford to
Liverpool Street is 10 stops with 1 change at West Ealing.


Yes, but the stops are further apart, and the distance greater, so run
times will be similar or longer. The Central line is a lot more frequent,
even if it isn't actually quicker, and the cross-platform interchange at
Greenford is incredibly convenient compared to Euston.


It does seem like another solution in search of a problem.

The Greenford branch being cut off from Paddington is the problem.
Connecting it to Euston is the solution.

Well, the connections at West Ealing and Greenford aren't all that bad,
though of course worse than having a direct, if infrequent, train. Most pax
will be better off with a 4 tph shuttle than 2 tph direct to Paddington.

You're overstating the indirect aspect. Look at
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...ions%20Map.pdf
and use a string or earphone cable to draw a straight line from North
Acton to, say, Kings Cross.

Which is an interesting point. Thanks to Crossrail, the Greenford line
customers do lose their half hourly direct service to Paddington. But,
with one change, they get a more frequent and faster service to many
more destinations, some new, some already available via the Central
Line (but with more stops). The change in the up direction will be
cross platform, though not so easy in the down direction.

Is diverting the service away from Euston via Camden Road
to wherever a feasible option?

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 18:26:44 +0100, Robin9
wrote:
[color=blue][i]

;153065 Wrote:
In article , (Basil
Jet)
wrote:
-
I was thinking about what a wasted resource the DC lines from Queens
Park to Euston are. A twin track railway to the edge of Central
London with only 3tph. But what to do with it?-

Surely the real pressure is to turf the suburban services out to provide

more mainline and HS2 capacity?

Colin Rosenstiel

Is diverting the service away from Euston via Camden Road
to wherever a feasible option?

Wouldn't it be easier to simply replace the LO service to Watford
Junction with the Bakerloo? It might have to wait till the Bakerloo
gets new stock in a few years time, of course.

Certainly it would be simpler but would it be practicable?
I assume the Bakerloo Line is as overcrowded during rush
hour as any other Underground service. Would adding to it
the people who currently travel on the Overground service to
Euston be workable?

We come back to the beginning of this thread: the DC lines to
Euston are an under-utilised asset. Abandoning the service does
not address that issue.

Robin9 wrote:[color=blue][i]

'Recliner[_3_ Wrote:
;153191']On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 18:26:44 +0100, Robin9
wrote:
-

;153065 Wrote: -
In article , (Basil
Jet)
wrote:
-
I was thinking about what a wasted resource the DC lines from Queens
Park to Euston are. A twin track railway to the edge of Central
London with only 3tph. But what to do with it?-

Surely the real pressure is to turf the suburban services out to
provide

more mainline and HS2 capacity?

Colin Rosenstiel-

Is diverting the service away from Euston via Camden Road
to wherever a feasible option?-

Wouldn't it be easier to simply replace the LO service to Watford
Junction with the Bakerloo? It might have to wait till the Bakerloo
gets new stock in a few years time, of course.

Certainly it would be simpler but would it be practicable?
I assume the Bakerloo Line is as overcrowded during rush
hour as any other Underground service. Would adding to it
the people who currently travel on the Overground service to
Euston be workable?

I thought the Bakerloo was the least (over) crowded of the LU lines?


We came back to the beginning of this thread: the DC lines to
Euston are an under-utilised asset. Abandoning the service does
address that issue.

I assume you meant "does NOT address"? That's true, but it does free up
the LO Euston platforms for other services. On the other hand, a more
intensive LO service to make better use of the track pair would need more
Euston platforms, which will be in short supply during the HS2 rebuilding.

On 2016\01\15 21:50, Recliner wrote:[color=blue][i]
Robin9 wrote:

'Recliner[_3_ Wrote:
;153191']On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 18:26:44 +0100, Robin9
wrote:
-

;153065 Wrote: -
In article , (Basil
Jet)
wrote:
-
I was thinking about what a wasted resource the DC lines from Queens
Park to Euston are. A twin track railway to the edge of Central
London with only 3tph. But what to do with it?-

Surely the real pressure is to turf the suburban services out to
provide

more mainline and HS2 capacity?

Colin Rosenstiel-

Is diverting the service away from Euston via Camden Road
to wherever a feasible option?-

Wouldn't it be easier to simply replace the LO service to Watford
Junction with the Bakerloo? It might have to wait till the Bakerloo
gets new stock in a few years time, of course.

Certainly it would be simpler but would it be practicable?
I assume the Bakerloo Line is as overcrowded during rush
hour as any other Underground service. Would adding to it
the people who currently travel on the Overground service to
Euston be workable?

I thought the Bakerloo was the least (over) crowded of the LU lines?


We came back to the beginning of this thread: the DC lines to
Euston are an under-utilised asset. Abandoning the service does
address that issue.

I assume you meant "does NOT address"? That's true, but it does free up
the LO Euston platforms for other services.

What? Render 3.5 mile strip of twin track and twin tunnel derelict just
because of platform issues at Euston?

(Has a look at Quail)

Bloody hell. It seems the formation passing Camden carriage sheds is
only 5-track. It certainly looks as if there's room for 6 tracks, the
tracks just aren't there. What were they thinking? (We only run 3tph on
the DC lines, I suppose.) Was it 3tph when LO took it over?

However, platform space at Euston is rumoured to be not in short supply.
Had the approaches been 6-track, the DC lines could have easily
supported 8tph or so from a single platform, surely?

I'm tempted to suggest joining the DC line to the Batterware line just
south of Chalk Farm station, after the Batterware frequency has been
increased. It would get rid of the compromise height platforms between
Kensal Green and Stonebridge Park without losing any direct services
(although Watford High Street would have to be served by either Met
trains or deep tube trains, not both), and give DC commuters an easy
interchange at Camden to the Barnden line that they probably actually want.

I suspect Figure 2 here rules it out though.
http://www.sparpointgroup.com/news/c...e-under-london