Awful journey planners
 

Someone I know wants to go tomorrow (Sunday) from Luton Airport Parkway
station to Deptford. Trains to Deptford go from Cannon Street calling
at London Bridge. So this is a pretty simple journey, really, and there
seem to be three reasonable routes:

(1) LTN to West Hampstead, then Jubilee line to London Bridge.

(2) LTN to St. Pancras, then Northern Line to London Bridge.

(3) LTN to Blackfriars, then Circle/District line to Cannon Street.

Without checking lots of timetables I was not sure which would be
fastest, so I thought I would try the two main online journey planners.

The National Rail planner suggested (for a return journey) using a
Super-off-peak Zone 1-6 London One-day Travelcard [such a snappy name]
so I selected that. But its suggestions for nearly all departure times
were to go to Blackfriars and then take a 20-minute *walk* to London
Bridge, which is ridiculous, especially for anyone who might have
luggage. For one departure time out of half-a-dozen it suggested
"TRANSFER" to Cannon Street (without actually mentioning how to do the
transfer, i.e. using terms like "tube" or "Circle Line" or anything).
But it helpfully pointed out that most tickets would include
cross-London travel. Two objections here (1) I think *all* tickets from
LTN to Deptford would include cross-London travel, and (2) I had already
selected the use of a Travelcard which indisputably would include it.
I could not find an option that would prompt it to take me via
St.Pancras or West Hampstead and then take a tube. Naive users might
easily conclude that walking along the Thames for 20 minutes was
generally the fastest route, which I simply do not believe. If this had
been sensible it would also be useful to suggest leaving Blackfriars by
the southern exits, but it failed to do that, so naive users might
easily cross the river twice.

The TfL journey planner was extremely slow this morning, I have no idea
why. I had made the mistake of entering the starting point as "London
Luton Airport Parkway" which I thought was its not-very obvious required
description. But it said there were several matching departure points
and then listed all of them, though there turned out only to be one (so
why didn't it select it?). So I had to waste more timing clicking on
"London, Luton Airport Parkway". See the difference there - a comma in
an pointless position - such top-quality programming!

Then its suggestions for all departure times were to change at West
Hampstead and use the Jubilee Line to get to London Bridge. From
detailed study of timetables I think this might sometimes be the fastest
route, but not if you can get an EMT train to St.Pancras which takes
around 20 minutes, when the Northern Line route would be faster, as the
long walk through St.Pancras is not much longer than the walk at West
Hampstead between stations. However for anyone with luggage or say
difficulties with long sets of steps the West Hampstead transfer, which
also involves crossing two main roads, would be much less pleasant. But
I could not find a way to get a change at St.Pancras or at Blackfriars
suggested no matter what the departure time was or what options I chose.

So for this rather simple cross-London journey both main journey
planners failed badly, in my opinion. None of them gave any indication
of alternative routes that might be nearly as fast, or that one might
take in case of travel disruptions. Long experience has taught me to
make a note of all options, since travel disruptions are so frequent.
And none of the planners gave me any indication of which section of
London Bridge to use, useful information in this complex station.

I appreciate that journey planning is a complex job, but it seems to me
that the current examples do a rather poor job even in fairly simple
cases. Does anyone know of any better journey planners out there?


--
Clive Page

Awful journey planners
 

Clive Page writes:

Someone I know wants to go tomorrow (Sunday) from Luton Airport
Parkway station to Deptford. Trains to Deptford go from Cannon
Street calling at London Bridge. So this is a pretty simple journey,
really, and there seem to be three reasonable routes:

(1) LTN to West Hampstead, then Jubilee line to London Bridge.

(2) LTN to St. Pancras, then Northern Line to London Bridge.

(3) LTN to Blackfriars, then Circle/District line to Cannon Street.
Snip

I appreciate that journey planning is a complex job, but it seems to
me that the current examples do a rather poor job even in fairly
simple cases. Does anyone know of any better journey planners out
there?

I have tried inputting that journey on Google Maps, and it suggests LTN
to Blackfriars and then District/Circle to Cannon Street.

Awful journey planners
 

"Clive Page" wrote in message
...
Someone I know wants to go tomorrow (Sunday) from Luton Airport Parkway
station to Deptford. Trains to Deptford go from Cannon Street calling at
London Bridge. So this is a pretty simple journey, really, and there seem
to be three reasonable routes:

(1) LTN to West Hampstead, then Jubilee line to London Bridge.

(2) LTN to St. Pancras, then Northern Line to London Bridge.

(3) LTN to Blackfriars, then Circle/District line to Cannon Street.

Without checking lots of timetables I was not sure which would be fastest,
so I thought I would try the two main online journey planners.

The National Rail planner suggested (for a return journey) using a
Super-off-peak Zone 1-6 London One-day Travelcard [such a snappy name]

You're lucky you can get that:

From my local station the out boundary TC is only available as a (3 pound
ish) add on to the Normal Off peak fare, qualify for the Super Off peak
(based upon time of travel) and you have to buy a full priced TC on arrival
(use Oyster etc).

*******s

tim

Awful journey planners
 

Is this not just a case of the Cannon Street line being messed around by
engineering work?

Awful journey planners
 

Basil Jet wrote:
Is this not just a case of the Cannon Street line being messed around by
engineering work?

I haven't followed the progress of the London Bridge situation, but those
lines have certainly suffered quite a lot from engineering related issues
associated with the Thameslink program. It might be the case that a
solution involving the Jubilee line to Canada Water and the East London
line to New Cross or alternatively Jubilee line to Canary Wharf and DLR to
an appropriate station between Greenwich and Lewisham is a more reliable
alternative.

Robin

Awful journey planners
 

In article , (Clive Page)
wrote:

Someone I know wants to go tomorrow (Sunday) from Luton Airport
Parkway station to Deptford. Trains to Deptford go from Cannon
Street calling at London Bridge. So this is a pretty simple journey,
really, and there seem to be three reasonable routes:

(1) LTN to West Hampstead, then Jubilee line to London Bridge.

(2) LTN to St. Pancras, then Northern Line to London Bridge.

(3) LTN to Blackfriars, then Circle/District line to Cannon Street.

Without checking lots of timetables I was not sure which would be
fastest, so I thought I would try the two main online journey
planners.

The National Rail planner suggested (for a return journey) using a
Super-off-peak Zone 1-6 London One-day Travelcard [such a snappy
name] so I selected that. But its suggestions for nearly all
departure times were to go to Blackfriars and then take a 20-minute
*walk* to London Bridge, which is ridiculous, especially for anyone
who might have luggage. For one departure time out of half-a-dozen
it suggested "TRANSFER" to Cannon Street (without actually mentioning
how to do the transfer, i.e. using terms like "tube" or "Circle Line"
or anything). But it helpfully pointed out that most tickets would
include cross-London travel. Two objections here (1) I think *all*
tickets from LTN to Deptford would include cross-London travel, and
(2) I had already selected the use of a Travelcard which indisputably
would include it. I could not find an option that would prompt it to
take me via St.Pancras or West Hampstead and then take a tube. Naive
users might easily conclude that walking along the Thames for 20
minutes was generally the fastest route, which I simply do not
believe. If this had been sensible it would also be useful to
suggest leaving Blackfriars by the southern exits, but it failed to
do that, so naive users might easily cross the river twice.

The TfL journey planner was extremely slow this morning, I have no
idea why. I had made the mistake of entering the starting point as
"London Luton Airport Parkway" which I thought was its not-very
obvious required description. But it said there were several
matching departure points and then listed all of them, though there
turned out only to be one (so why didn't it select it?). So I had to
waste more timing clicking on "London, Luton Airport Parkway". See
the difference there - a comma in an pointless position - such
top-quality programming!

Then its suggestions for all departure times were to change at West
Hampstead and use the Jubilee Line to get to London Bridge. From
detailed study of timetables I think this might sometimes be the
fastest route, but not if you can get an EMT train to St.Pancras
which takes around 20 minutes, when the Northern Line route would be
faster, as the long walk through St.Pancras is not much longer than
the walk at West Hampstead between stations. However for anyone with
luggage or say difficulties with long sets of steps the West
Hampstead transfer, which also involves crossing two main roads,
would be much less pleasant. But I could not find a way to get a
change at St.Pancras or at Blackfriars suggested no matter what the
departure time was or what options I chose.

So for this rather simple cross-London journey both main journey
planners failed badly, in my opinion. None of them gave any
indication of alternative routes that might be nearly as fast, or
that one might take in case of travel disruptions. Long experience
has taught me to make a note of all options, since travel disruptions
are so frequent. And none of the planners gave me any indication of
which section of London Bridge to use, useful information in this
complex station.

I appreciate that journey planning is a complex job, but it seems to
me that the current examples do a rather poor job even in fairly
simple cases. Does anyone know of any better journey planners out
there?

So use a better Journey Planner than the National Rail one! I've not used
that for years. I usually use the East Coast web site but any TOC site using
Webtis would do. That generally offers changes at Blackfriars and Cannon
Street but has a 1 minute faster option via St Pancras and London Bridge.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Awful journey planners
 

Clive Page wrote:

Does anyone know of any better journey planners out there?

Citymapper shows a 65 minute journey, via Cannon Street.

Awful journey planners
 

On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 11:49:30 +0100
Clive Page wrote:

So for this rather simple cross-London journey both main journey
planners failed badly

Why would anyone need a machine to plan their trip?

You must be pretty stupid if you can not plan
your own route.

Awful journey planners
 

"bob" wrote in message ...
Basil Jet wrote:
Is this not just a case of the Cannon Street line being messed around by
engineering work?

I haven't followed the progress of the London Bridge situation,

Currently - CX trains cannot stop at LB but CS trains can (and do).

From next month: CX trains can again call at LB whilst CS trains can't
(until some date in 2018).

If the OP had said "next month I want to travel on a route that I think most
sensibly includes CS to LB", that would be the reason why the journey
planner doesn't find such a route.

But he didn't say that, he said tomorrow... It is just possible, but
unlikely that the journey planner is using next month's restrictions for a
journey made today

tim

Awful journey planners
 

"burfordTjustice" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 11:49:30 +0100
Clive Page wrote:

So for this rather simple cross-London journey both main journey
planners failed badly

Why would anyone need a machine to plan their trip?

You must be pretty stupid if you can not plan
your own route.



Luton airport is an awkward destination because there are fast trains, semi
fast trains and slow trains

Getting to the airport at time X and taking the first train may not be the
smart thing to do

tim

Awful journey planners
 

On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 19:28:28 +0100
"tim..." wrote:


"burfordTjustice" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 11:49:30 +0100
Clive Page wrote:

So for this rather simple cross-London journey both main journey
planners failed badly

Why would anyone need a machine to plan their trip?

You must be pretty stupid if you can not plan
your own route.



Luton airport is an awkward destination because there are fast
trains, semi fast trains and slow trains

Getting to the airport at time X and taking the first train may not
be the smart thing to do

tim


So you are stupid and dependent on someone's machine to figure
things out for you. As the op stated seems the machines are
just a stupid.
Care for your self and not be dependent on government
or others to care for you...

Damn folks Man up and tend to yourself and families.

Awful journey planners
 

On 16/07/2016 12:43, Basil Jet wrote:
Is this not just a case of the Cannon Street line being messed around by
engineering work?

No, seems to be running normally this morning, i.e. one train to
Plumstead via Deptford every 15 mins.


--
Clive Page

Awful journey planners
 

On 16/07/2016 16:26, burfordTjustice wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 11:49:30 +0100
Clive Page wrote:

So for this rather simple cross-London journey both main journey
planners failed badly

Why would anyone need a machine to plan their trip?

You must be pretty stupid if you can not plan
your own route.

Thank you for those kind and perceptive comments.

As I explained, there are (at least) three routes with similar timings,
and it required detailed study of timetables for Thameslink, EMT, and SE
trains, plus getting estimates of times on Northern, Jubilee, and
Circle/District lines, as well as checking for the effects of weekend
engineering works, to work out the best route for any given departure
time. This is the sort of job that ought to be ideally suited to
computers. We have had on-line journey planners for at least 15 years
now, but it seems to me that they are still stuck in the 20th Century,
and have hardly advanced in all that time.

Of course one can do all the work oneself and in this case I had to but
it took me the best part of half-an-hour, but I really don't understand
why there is not a single on-line journey planner that can do the work
much more quickly and reliably.


-- l
Clive Page

Awful journey planners
 

In message , at 09:18:45 on Sun, 17
Jul 2016, Clive Page remarked:
Of course one can do all the work oneself and in this case I had to but
it took me the best part of half-an-hour, but I really don't understand
why there is not a single on-line journey planner that can do the work
much more quickly and reliably.

Ever since the government scrapped the "Transport Direct", I use Google
Maps. It's simple and reliable.
--
Roland Perry

Awful journey planners
 

Clive Page wrote:

Someone I know wants to go tomorrow (Sunday) from Luton Airport Parkway
station to Deptford. Trains to Deptford go from Cannon Street calling
at London Bridge. So this is a pretty simple journey, really, and there
seem to be three reasonable routes:

(1) LTN to West Hampstead, then Jubilee line to London Bridge.

(2) LTN to St. Pancras, then Northern Line to London Bridge.

(3) LTN to Blackfriars, then Circle/District line to Cannon Street.

Without checking lots of timetables I was not sure which would be
fastest, so I thought I would try the two main online journey planners.



I appreciate that journey planning is a complex job, but it seems to me
that the current examples do a rather poor job even in fairly simple
cases. Does anyone know of any better journey planners out there?

Travellink South East gives only one journet with fast walk and that is
your number one route taking 75-6 minutes

Average walk makes these 87-9 miunutes but adds some longer ones
Thaneslink to Elephant and Castel then bus to New Cross then 10 mins
walk - taking 106 mins
and a 99 min journey LTN-StaPancras-KX-Northerm to Bank- DLR to
Cutty Sark- Bus to Deptford

A slow walk gives 1 as 93-102 mins but adds 3 (change at Farringdon not
Blackfriars ie the oyjer way round the circle ) as 94 mins

So depends on how fast you walk :) and there are more rouyes than you
yjought of and only 1 actually competes.

--
Mark

Awful journey planners
 

Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:

Clive Page wrote:

Does anyone know of any better journey planners out there?

Citymapper shows a 65 minute journey, via Cannon Street.

Des Citymapper use actual time tables or does ot just take average times
- I have trmoved one app bevause of that and think it was this one


--
Mark

Awful journey planners
 

On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:18:45 +0100
Clive Page wrote:

it took me the best part of half-an-hour,

damn, stop the world, a whole half hour
to plan a trip...Pathetic

Awful journey planners
 

(Mark Bestley) wrote:

Des Citymapper use actual time tables or does ot just take average times
- I have trmoved one app bevause of that and think it was this one

Good question. I assumed it uses actual timetables as the journey times vary
depending on when you choose to depart, but I suppose that might not be the
case.

Awful journey planners
 

Clive Page wrote:

On 16/07/2016 16:26, burfordTjustice wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 11:49:30 +0100
Clive Page wrote:

So for this rather simple cross-London journey both main journey
planners failed badly

Why would anyone need a machine to plan their trip?

You must be pretty stupid if you can not plan
your own route.

Thank you for those kind and perceptive comments.

As I explained, there are (at least) three routes with similar
timings, and it required detailed study of timetables for Thameslink,
EMT, and SE trains, plus getting estimates of times on Northern,
Jubilee, and Circle/District lines, as well as checking for the
effects of weekend engineering works, to work out the best route for
any given departure time. This is the sort of job that ought to be
ideally suited to computers. We have had on-line journey planners
for at least 15 years now, but it seems to me that they are still
stuck in the 20th Century, and have hardly advanced in all that time.

I think you are being somewhat harsh on the TfL Planner, it gave you a
perfectly reasonable route. Exactly which option is quickest will
largely depend on how much time you allow for the interchanges.

It is very likely all three options would have ended up on the same
train out of London Bridge.

Peter Smyth

Awful journey planners
 

On 17/07/2016 10:02, Roland Perry wrote:
Ever since the government scrapped the "Transport Direct", I use Google
Maps. It's simple and reliable.

Do you know whether it has up-to-date info on engineering works etc? I
tried to find out but Google's algorithms seem to be hidden.


--
Clive Page

Awful journey planners
 

In article , (Clive Page)
wrote:

On 17/07/2016 10:02, Roland Perry wrote:
Ever since the government scrapped the "Transport Direct", I use Google
Maps. It's simple and reliable.

Do you know whether it has up-to-date info on engineering works etc?
I tried to find out but Google's algorithms seem to be hidden.

Not hard to check if it respects which trains are not calling at London
Bridge now, surely?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Awful journey planners
 

wrote in message
...
In article , (Clive
Page)
wrote:

On 17/07/2016 10:02, Roland Perry wrote:
Ever since the government scrapped the "Transport Direct", I use Google
Maps. It's simple and reliable.

Do you know whether it has up-to-date info on engineering works etc?
I tried to find out but Google's algorithms seem to be hidden.

Not hard to check if it respects which trains are not calling at London
Bridge now, surely?

the thing about the LB engineering is that it is long term and reflected in
the twice annual published timetables

It's the odd weekend engineering that is only released a week or two before
that's the problem to collect

(I have no idea if Google do this or not)

Awful journey planners
 

Awful journey planners
 

In article , (tim...)
wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Clive Page) wrote:

On 17/07/2016 10:02, Roland Perry wrote:
Ever since the government scrapped the "Transport Direct", I use
Google Maps. It's simple and reliable.

Do you know whether it has up-to-date info on engineering works etc?
I tried to find out but Google's algorithms seem to be hidden.

Not hard to check if it respects which trains are not calling at London
Bridge now, surely?

the thing about the LB engineering is that it is long term and
reflected in the twice annual published timetables

It's the odd weekend engineering that is only released a week or two
before that's the problem to collect

(I have no idea if Google do this or not)

It's supposed to be at least 12 weeks before these days, barring things like
Eden Brow.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Awful journey planners
 

On 18/07/2016 18:30, Peter Smyth wrote: (on Google Maps)
It doesn't seem to have weekend closures though, for next Saturday it
is advising me to use the District Line to Wimbledon even though the
branch is closed.

Ah that's a good test. I was impressed by the recommendations higher up
the thread to use CityMapper, and it does seem better in many ways than
the TfL or NR journey planners, in that it suggests a number of
alternatives, has times for changing trains etc., and has timings for a
set of buses/tubes/trains, not just the one it thinks you will take.

But I just tried it for Embankment to Wimbledon for next Saturday and it
does indeed suggest taking the District Line. Pity.


--
Clive Page

Awful journey planners
 

On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 07:35:36 -0400, burfordTjustice wrote:

On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:18:45 +0100
Clive Page wrote:

it took me the best part of half-an-hour,

damn, stop the world, a whole half hour
to plan a trip...Pathetic


And why should anyone want to plan an awful journey?

Awful journey planners
 

Hmmm... Apparently Google Maps is adding transit delays...

http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/07...to-some-users/

Awful journey planners
 

On 17/07/2016 12:35, burfordTjustice wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:18:45 +0100
Clive Page wrote:

it took me the best part of half-an-hour,

damn, stop the world, a whole half hour
to plan a trip...Pathetic


What justice do you offer, apart from utter inanity?

Awful journey planners
 

Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
Hmmm... Apparently Google Maps is adding transit delays...

http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/07...to-some-users/

I learnt to distrust Google Maps transit times when I got off the Caltrain
at Mountain View to catch the VTA light rail, to discover that most of the
route had been bustituted and was completely different from the times Google
Maps told me (taking an extra hour). If Google can't cope with scheduled
service changes /in their home town/ I don't think there's much hope for the
rest of us.

Theo