Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 2016\07\29 13:50, Schnuzelbug (Chris Date) wrote:
Photos and video in link.

---

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/t...-unveiled.html

"UK: The first of 66 electric multiple-units for the Crossrail project was unveiled by Transport for London at Bombardier’s Derby factory on July 29.

Following dynamic testing at the Derby plant, the first train is to undergo trials at the Old Dalby test centre during August. This will include carrying more than 100 tonnes of weight to simulate passengers. A car is also to be sent to a climatic chamber. Once trials are completed, the test equipment will be removed from the first trains and the interiors will be fitted out with seats before delivery for passenger service.

The Class 345 EMUs are part of Bombardier’s Aventra family, and according to TfL production in Derby is helping to support 760 jobs and 80 apprenticeships. Barber & Osgerby is acting as design adviser.

The EMUs feature wide gangways, air-conditioning, CCTV and real-time travel information, and are equipped for regenerative braking which is expected to result in energy savings of up to 30%.

The Class 345 is scheduled to enter service on TfL Rail services between London Liverpool Street and Shenfield in May 2017. The first trainsets will initially comprise seven cars and be 160 m long to fit the existing platforms at Liverpool Street. Nine-car sets 200 m long with a capacity of 1 500 passengers are expected to be introduced from May 2018, initially running between Heathrow Airport and Paddington.

The full route linking Reading and Heathrow in the west and Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east via new tunnels under central London is scheduled to open in 2019, and will be called the Elizabeth Line.

‘The Elizabeth Line trains, which are a great showcase of British design and manufacture, will be running on part of our network within a year’, said London Transport Commissioner Mike Brown at the unveiling event. ‘The trains are fully accessible, will have air-cooling, and once the whole line opens, they will help our passengers move more easily into and across the city every day.’"


Thanks. They seem to have put the full Elizabeth Line map over the door
at 1:12 ... surely they will need a Liverpool Street - Shenfield only
map initially!

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

Basil Jet wrote on 29 Jul 2016 at 14:53 ...
On 2016\07\29 13:50, Schnuzelbug (Chris Date) wrote:
Photos and video in link.

---

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/t...-unveiled.html

"UK: The first of 66 electric multiple-units for the Crossrail project was unveiled by Transport for London at Bombardier’s Derby factory on July 29.

Following dynamic testing at the Derby plant, the first train is to undergo trials at the Old Dalby test centre during August. This will include carrying more than 100 tonnes of weight to simulate passengers. A car is also to be sent to a climatic chamber. Once trials are completed, the test equipment will be removed from the first trains and the interiors will be fitted out with seats before delivery for passenger service.

The Class 345 EMUs are part of Bombardier’s Aventra family, and according to TfL production in Derby is helping to support 760 jobs and 80 apprenticeships. Barber & Osgerby is acting as design adviser.

The EMUs feature wide gangways, air-conditioning, CCTV and real-time travel information, and are equipped for regenerative braking which is expected to result in energy savings of up to 30%.

The Class 345 is scheduled to enter service on TfL Rail services between London Liverpool Street and Shenfield in May 2017. The first trainsets will initially comprise seven cars and be 160 m long to fit the existing platforms at Liverpool Street. Nine-car sets 200 m long with a capacity of 1 500 passengers are expected to be introduced from May 2018, initially running between Heathrow Airport and Paddington.

The full route linking Reading and Heathrow in the west and Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east via new tunnels under central London is scheduled to open in 2019, and will be called the Elizabeth Line.

‘The Elizabeth Line trains, which are a great showcase of British design and manufacture, will be running on part of our network within a year’, said London Transport Commissioner Mike Brown at the unveiling event. ‘The trains are fully accessible, will have air-cooling, and once the whole line opens, they will help our passengers move more easily into and across the city every day.’"


So is it air-conditioning or air-cooling? (Both terms used in the last 4
paragraphs.) After the fiasco of "air cooling" on the New Routemaster,
TfL should be more careful in describing it. Hopefully proper air-con
as on LU's S stock.

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 15:27:21 +0100
"Richard J." wrote:
Basil Jet wrote on 29 Jul 2016 at 14:53 ...
‘The Elizabeth Line trains, which are a great showcase of British design
and manufacture, will be running on part of our network within a year’, said
London Transport Commissioner Mike Brown at the unveiling event. ‘The trains
are fully accessible, will have air-cooling, and once the whole line opens,
they will help our passengers move more easily into and across the city every
day.’"


So is it air-conditioning or air-cooling? (Both terms used in the last 4
paragraphs.) After the fiasco of "air cooling" on the New Routemaster,
TfL should be more careful in describing it. Hopefully proper air-con
as on LU's S stock.

The seats look about as well padded and comfortable as a slab of granite as
seems to be the norm these days.

Why did they need a completely new type of train anyway on both crossrail and
thameslink. What would have been the problem with ordering another load of
electrostars? Surely it would have saved 10s of millions in design costs.

--
Spud

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 15:27:21 +0100
"Richard J." wrote:
Basil Jet wrote on 29 Jul 2016 at 14:53 ...
‘The Elizabeth Line trains, which are a great showcase of British design
and manufacture, will be running on part of our network within a year’, said
London Transport Commissioner Mike Brown at the unveiling event. ‘The trains
are fully accessible, will have air-cooling, and once the whole line opens,
they will help our passengers move more easily into and across the city every
day.’"


So is it air-conditioning or air-cooling? (Both terms used in the last 4
paragraphs.) After the fiasco of "air cooling" on the New Routemaster,
TfL should be more careful in describing it. Hopefully proper air-con
as on LU's S stock.

The seats look about as well padded and comfortable as a slab of granite as
seems to be the norm these days.

Why did they need a completely new type of train anyway on both crossrail and
thameslink. What would have been the problem with ordering another load of
electrostars? Surely it would have saved 10s of millions in design costs.

Aventras *are* the generation of Electrostars, with updated technology,
lower weight and compliant with the latest safety standards.

The DfT ordered the TL class 700s, and did it in such an inept way that
Siemens won, not because it was offering a better or cheaper train, but
because the company had a better credit rating. Had the trains been
ordered through a ROSCO they'd certainly be cheaper, and would probably
have included features that the civil servants forgot, such as tray tables
and wifi.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

Richard J. wrote:
Basil Jet wrote on 29 Jul 2016 at 14:53 ...
On 2016\07\29 13:50, Schnuzelbug (Chris Date) wrote:
Photos and video in link.

---

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/t...-unveiled.html

"UK: The first of 66 electric multiple-units for the Crossrail project
was unveiled by Transport for London at Bombardier’s Derby factory on July 29.

Following dynamic testing at the Derby plant, the first train is to
undergo trials at the Old Dalby test centre during August. This will
include carrying more than 100 tonnes of weight to simulate passengers.
A car is also to be sent to a climatic chamber. Once trials are
completed, the test equipment will be removed from the first trains and
the interiors will be fitted out with seats before delivery for passenger service.

The Class 345 EMUs are part of Bombardier’s Aventra family, and
according to TfL production in Derby is helping to support 760 jobs and 80
apprenticeships. Barber & Osgerby is acting as design adviser.

The EMUs feature wide gangways, air-conditioning, CCTV and real-time
travel information, and are equipped for regenerative braking which is
expected to result in energy savings of up to 30%.

The Class 345 is scheduled to enter service on TfL Rail services
between London Liverpool Street and Shenfield in May 2017. The first
trainsets will initially comprise seven cars and be 160 m long to fit
the existing platforms at Liverpool Street. Nine-car sets 200 m long
with a capacity of 1 500 passengers are expected to be introduced from
May 2018, initially running between Heathrow Airport and Paddington.

The full route linking Reading and Heathrow in the west and Shenfield
and Abbey Wood in the east via new tunnels under central London is
scheduled to open in 2019, and will be called the Elizabeth Line.

‘The Elizabeth Line trains, which are a great showcase of British
design and manufacture, will be running on part of our network within a
year’, said London Transport Commissioner Mike Brown at the unveiling
event. ‘The trains are fully accessible, will have air-cooling, and
once the whole line opens, they will help our passengers move more
easily into and across the city every day.’"


So is it air-conditioning or air-cooling? (Both terms used in the last 4
paragraphs.) After the fiasco of "air cooling" on the New Routemaster,
TfL should be more careful in describing it. Hopefully proper air-con
as on LU's S stock.

I'd hope so too. These are just next-gen Electrostars, so the aircon should
be similar.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

Basil Jet wrote:
On 2016\07\29 13:50, Schnuzelbug (Chris Date) wrote:
Photos and video in link.

---

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/t...-unveiled.html

"UK: The first of 66 electric multiple-units for the Crossrail project
was unveiled by Transport for London at Bombardier’s Derby factory on July 29.

Following dynamic testing at the Derby plant, the first train is to
undergo trials at the Old Dalby test centre during August. This will
include carrying more than 100 tonnes of weight to simulate passengers.
A car is also to be sent to a climatic chamber. Once trials are
completed, the test equipment will be removed from the first trains and
the interiors will be fitted out with seats before delivery for passenger service.

The Class 345 EMUs are part of Bombardier’s Aventra family, and
according to TfL production in Derby is helping to support 760 jobs and 80
apprenticeships. Barber & Osgerby is acting as design adviser.

The EMUs feature wide gangways, air-conditioning, CCTV and real-time
travel information, and are equipped for regenerative braking which is
expected to result in energy savings of up to 30%.

The Class 345 is scheduled to enter service on TfL Rail services between
London Liverpool Street and Shenfield in May 2017. The first trainsets
will initially comprise seven cars and be 160 m long to fit the existing
platforms at Liverpool Street. Nine-car sets 200 m long with a capacity
of 1 500 passengers are expected to be introduced from May 2018,
initially running between Heathrow Airport and Paddington.

The full route linking Reading and Heathrow in the west and Shenfield
and Abbey Wood in the east via new tunnels under central London is
scheduled to open in 2019, and will be called the Elizabeth Line.

‘The Elizabeth Line trains, which are a great showcase of British design
and manufacture, will be running on part of our network within a year’,
said London Transport Commissioner Mike Brown at the unveiling event.
‘The trains are fully accessible, will have air-cooling, and once the
whole line opens, they will help our passengers move more easily into
and across the city every day.’"


Thanks. They seem to have put the full Elizabeth Line map over the door
at 1:12 ... surely they will need a Liverpool Street - Shenfield only
map initially!


I don't suppose the maps are applied in the factory with the production
trains. They'll be stuck in and updated as needed by the operator.

But will the initial trains even be labelled as 'Elizabeth Line'? I
thought the new name would only be used once the trains can use the tunnel.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 29.07.16 18:12, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2016\07\29 13:50, Schnuzelbug (Chris Date) wrote:
Photos and video in link.

---

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/t...-unveiled.html

"UK: The first of 66 electric multiple-units for the Crossrail project
was unveiled by Transport for London at Bombardier’s Derby factory on July 29.

Following dynamic testing at the Derby plant, the first train is to
undergo trials at the Old Dalby test centre during August. This will
include carrying more than 100 tonnes of weight to simulate passengers.
A car is also to be sent to a climatic chamber. Once trials are
completed, the test equipment will be removed from the first trains and
the interiors will be fitted out with seats before delivery for passenger service.

The Class 345 EMUs are part of Bombardier’s Aventra family, and
according to TfL production in Derby is helping to support 760 jobs and 80
apprenticeships. Barber & Osgerby is acting as design adviser.

The EMUs feature wide gangways, air-conditioning, CCTV and real-time
travel information, and are equipped for regenerative braking which is
expected to result in energy savings of up to 30%.

The Class 345 is scheduled to enter service on TfL Rail services between
London Liverpool Street and Shenfield in May 2017. The first trainsets
will initially comprise seven cars and be 160 m long to fit the existing
platforms at Liverpool Street. Nine-car sets 200 m long with a capacity
of 1 500 passengers are expected to be introduced from May 2018,
initially running between Heathrow Airport and Paddington.

The full route linking Reading and Heathrow in the west and Shenfield
and Abbey Wood in the east via new tunnels under central London is
scheduled to open in 2019, and will be called the Elizabeth Line.

‘The Elizabeth Line trains, which are a great showcase of British design
and manufacture, will be running on part of our network within a year’,
said London Transport Commissioner Mike Brown at the unveiling event.
‘The trains are fully accessible, will have air-cooling, and once the
whole line opens, they will help our passengers move more easily into
and across the city every day.’"


Thanks. They seem to have put the full Elizabeth Line map over the door
at 1:12 ... surely they will need a Liverpool Street - Shenfield only
map initially!


I don't suppose the maps are applied in the factory with the production
trains. They'll be stuck in and updated as needed by the operator.

But will the initial trains even be labelled as 'Elizabeth Line'? I
thought the new name would only be used once the trains can use the tunnel.

I was wondering same. Essentially, this will be LO service between
Liverpool Street and Shenfield with a cool new train.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 29.07.16 15:27, Richard J. wrote:
Basil Jet wrote on 29 Jul 2016 at 14:53 ...
On 2016\07\29 13:50, Schnuzelbug (Chris Date) wrote:
Photos and video in link.

---

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/t...-unveiled.html


"UK: The first of 66 electric multiple-units for the Crossrail
project was unveiled by Transport for London at Bombardier’s Derby
factory on July 29.

Following dynamic testing at the Derby plant, the first train is to
undergo trials at the Old Dalby test centre during August. This will
include carrying more than 100 tonnes of weight to simulate
passengers. A car is also to be sent to a climatic chamber. Once
trials are completed, the test equipment will be removed from the
first trains and the interiors will be fitted out with seats before
delivery for passenger service.

The Class 345 EMUs are part of Bombardier’s Aventra family, and
according to TfL production in Derby is helping to support 760 jobs
and 80 apprenticeships. Barber & Osgerby is acting as design adviser.

The EMUs feature wide gangways, air-conditioning, CCTV and real-time
travel information, and are equipped for regenerative braking which
is expected to result in energy savings of up to 30%.

The Class 345 is scheduled to enter service on TfL Rail services
between London Liverpool Street and Shenfield in May 2017. The first
trainsets will initially comprise seven cars and be 160 m long to fit
the existing platforms at Liverpool Street. Nine-car sets 200 m long
with a capacity of 1 500 passengers are expected to be introduced
from May 2018, initially running between Heathrow Airport and
Paddington.

The full route linking Reading and Heathrow in the west and Shenfield
and Abbey Wood in the east via new tunnels under central London is
scheduled to open in 2019, and will be called the Elizabeth Line.

‘The Elizabeth Line trains, which are a great showcase of British
design and manufacture, will be running on part of our network within
a year’, said London Transport Commissioner Mike Brown at the
unveiling event. ‘The trains are fully accessible, will have
air-cooling, and once the whole line opens, they will help our
passengers move more easily into and across the city every day.’"


So is it air-conditioning or air-cooling? (Both terms used in the last 4
paragraphs.) After the fiasco of "air cooling" on the New Routemaster,
TfL should be more careful in describing it. Hopefully proper air-con
as on LU's S stock.


Are they ever going to figure out air conditioning for Tube trains?

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

In message , at 13:50:29 on Sat, 30 Jul
2016, " remarked:

Are they ever going to figure out air conditioning for Tube trains?

Pump the heat out of the trains into the tunnels and stations. What
could possibly go wrong?
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

Roland Perry writes:

In message , at 13:50:29 on Sat, 30 Jul
2016, " remarked:

Are they ever going to figure out air conditioning for Tube trains?

Pump the heat out of the trains into the tunnels and stations. What
could possibly go wrong?

And equip alternate stations with powerful air conditioners and
extractor fans, creating a cooling airflow along the tunnels.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:50:29 on Sat, 30 Jul 2016,
" remarked:

Are they ever going to figure out air conditioning for Tube trains?

Pump the heat out of the trains into the tunnels and stations. What could
possibly go wrong?
--
Roland Perry

Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they don't
have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the excess heat
generated.

--
DAS

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

Graham Murray wrote:
Roland Perry writes:

In message , at 13:50:29 on Sat, 30 Jul
2016, " remarked:

Are they ever going to figure out air conditioning for Tube trains?

Pump the heat out of the trains into the tunnels and stations. What
could possibly go wrong?

And equip alternate stations with powerful air conditioners and
extractor fans, creating a cooling airflow along the tunnels.

Some of that is already in place. Ventilation has been significantly
improved in many stations, and I think some use heat exchangers to cool the
air using pumped ground water.

As for the trains, the NTfL is intended to incorporate saloon cooling, as
well as emitting less heat in the first place. See page 24 in
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/ntfl-feasibility-report.pdf

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 30/07/2016 20:50, D A Stocks wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:50:29 on Sat, 30 Jul
2016, " remarked:

Are they ever going to figure out air conditioning for Tube trains?

Pump the heat out of the trains into the tunnels and stations. What
could possibly go wrong?
--
Roland Perry

Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they
don't have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the
excess heat generated.

--
DAS

But, the holes that the trains run through are vastly larger than tube
tunnels - and they have the service tunnel as well. Much more scope for
cooling if needed!

Colin

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 13:19:28 +0100, Colin Reeves
wrote:

On 30/07/2016 20:50, D A Stocks wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:50:29 on Sat, 30 Jul
2016, " remarked:

Are they ever going to figure out air conditioning for Tube trains?

Pump the heat out of the trains into the tunnels and stations. What
could possibly go wrong?
--
Roland Perry

Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they
don't have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the
excess heat generated.

--
DAS

But, the holes that the trains run through are vastly larger than tube
tunnels - and they have the service tunnel as well. Much more scope for
cooling if needed!

There are doors to the service tunnel and it is at higher pressure in
case of fire so it doesn't really play a part in heat removal. There
are air shafts linking the two running tunnels and there are cold
water pipes in each tunnel to provide cooling.

The other difference between the Channel Tunnel and the tube is there
are no stations so limited braking and acceleration to generate heat.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 2016\07\31 18:25, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 13:19:28 +0100, Colin Reeves
wrote:

On 30/07/2016 20:50, D A Stocks wrote:

Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they
don't have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the
excess heat generated.

But, the holes that the trains run through are vastly larger than tube
tunnels - and they have the service tunnel as well. Much more scope for
cooling if needed!

There are doors to the service tunnel and it is at higher pressure in
case of fire so it doesn't really play a part in heat removal. There
are air shafts linking the two running tunnels and there are cold
water pipes in each tunnel to provide cooling.

Are the pipes supposed to transfer heat to the rock around the tunnel or
out the ends of the tunnel? I can't imagine the latter working very well
in a 50km tunnel.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 31/07/16 18:25, wrote:
There are doors to the service tunnel and it is at higher pressure in
case of fire so it doesn't really play a part in heat removal. There
are air shafts linking the two running tunnels and there are cold
water pipes in each tunnel to provide cooling.

The other difference between the Channel Tunnel and the tube is there
are no stations so limited braking and acceleration to generate heat.
But the trains have to be powered towards the tunnel exits as there is
an upward gradient.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

In message , Basil Jet
writes
On 2016\07\31 18:25, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 13:19:28 +0100, Colin Reeves
wrote:

On 30/07/2016 20:50, D A Stocks wrote:

Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they
don't have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the
excess heat generated.

But, the holes that the trains run through are vastly larger than tube
tunnels - and they have the service tunnel as well. Much more scope for
cooling if needed!

There are doors to the service tunnel and it is at higher pressure in
case of fire so it doesn't really play a part in heat removal. There
are air shafts linking the two running tunnels and there are cold
water pipes in each tunnel to provide cooling.

Are the pipes supposed to transfer heat to the rock around the tunnel
or out the ends of the tunnel? I can't imagine the latter working very
well in a 50km tunnel.

Wasn't the need for an upgraded cooling system one of the major reasons
for the cost over-run and delayed opening of the tunnel?

http://batisseurs-tunnel.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/1-Le-Projet-Tunnel-sous-La-Manche_C1.pdf
says

Cooling system: compensates heat from air friction generated by trains,
and heat produced by engines or electrical equipments. It is based on a
closed circuit chilled water, and includes 2 cooling plants, total
40 MW, located at Sangatte and Shakespeare Cliff, supplying cold water
(4 degree C, 220 l/s) through 200 km of pipes of diameters 400 and
320 mm.

There's more in
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...epage&q=channe
l%20tunnel%20cooling%20system:MW&f=false
but it's a pdf image of an article so difficult to copy and paste.
--
Goalie of the Century

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 19:58:59 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2016\07\31 18:25, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 13:19:28 +0100, Colin Reeves
wrote:

On 30/07/2016 20:50, D A Stocks wrote:

Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they
don't have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the
excess heat generated.

But, the holes that the trains run through are vastly larger than tube
tunnels - and they have the service tunnel as well. Much more scope for
cooling if needed!

There are doors to the service tunnel and it is at higher pressure in
case of fire so it doesn't really play a part in heat removal. There
are air shafts linking the two running tunnels and there are cold
water pipes in each tunnel to provide cooling.

Are the pipes supposed to transfer heat to the rock around the tunnel or
out the ends of the tunnel? I can't imagine the latter working very well
in a 50km tunnel.

Out of the tunnel, there's a cooling plant at each end. I guess it's
configured as 25 km out and return rather than all the way through.
The plants supply water at 4 C, no idea of the return temperature.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 31/07/16 20:07, Martin Coffee wrote:
On 31/07/16 18:25, wrote:
The other difference between the Channel Tunnel and the tube is there
are no stations so limited braking and acceleration to generate heat.
But the trains have to be powered towards the tunnel exits as there is
an upward gradient.

And therefore correspondingly reduced power on the downward gradient at the
entrances.

Roger

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 08:50:00PM +0100, D A Stocks wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
Pump the heat out of the trains into the tunnels and stations. What could
possibly go wrong?
Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they don't
have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the excess heat
generated.

Yeah, and that means that they don't have to worry about the stations
being uncomfortably hot.

--
header FROM_DAVID_CANTRELL From =~ /david.cantrell/i
describe FROM_DAVID_CANTRELL Message is from David Cantrell
score FROM_DAVID_CANTRELL 15.72 # This figure from experimentation

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 17:12:48 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

I don't suppose the maps are applied in the factory with the production
trains. They'll be stuck in and updated as needed by the operator.

But will the initial trains even be labelled as 'Elizabeth Line'? I
thought the new name would only be used once the trains can use the
tunnel.

No they won't. TfL Rail applies until Dec 2018. It will apply even
when TfL take Heathrow Connect services in May 2018. All changes come
Dec 2018. See the footnotes to this press release about Paddington
Bakerloo Line reopening.


https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/pr...kerloo-line-se
rves-paddington-station-again-from-today

Was Crossrail/Elizabeth line always only going to terminate at Terminal 4 in
Heathrow?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

wrote:
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 17:12:48 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

I don't suppose the maps are applied in the factory with the production
trains. They'll be stuck in and updated as needed by the operator.

But will the initial trains even be labelled as 'Elizabeth Line'? I
thought the new name would only be used once the trains can use the
tunnel.

No they won't. TfL Rail applies until Dec 2018. It will apply even
when TfL take Heathrow Connect services in May 2018. All changes come
Dec 2018. See the footnotes to this press release about Paddington
Bakerloo Line reopening.


https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/pr...kerloo-line-se
rves-paddington-station-again-from-today

Was Crossrail/Elizabeth line always only going to terminate at Terminal 4 in
Heathrow?

It replaces Heathrow Connect, which terminates at T4. HEx has T5. But I
still doubt the long term future of HEx. If it gets merged into Crossrail,
then all the terminals would be served by the same Tube and Rail services,
which would be much simpler.

What's particularly confusing to a visitor today is that the HCon station
in T4 is labelled as a HEx, not a HCon station, despite the fact that only
HCon trains serve it:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26830662545/in/photolist-FXuZNR-GSWad6-GsQvXd-GsQvRS-GsQuX7-GsQw19-GJDBvL

If/when the western link opens, and there are through trains, then I'm sure
Crossrail will have to serve T5.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 7/29/2016 6:12 PM, Recliner wrote:
[...]
The DfT ordered the TL class 700s, and did it in such an inept way that
Siemens won, not because it was offering a better or cheaper train, but
because the company had a better credit rating. Had the trains been
ordered through a ROSCO they'd certainly be cheaper, and would probably
have included features that the civil servants forgot, such as tray tables
and wifi.


I haven't followed that story closely - so Siemen's superior credit
rating is what won it?! Somewhat bizarre.

One imagines that the missing tray tables must have been bought up by
Siemens.

Missing wifi I can kinda understand - those who really need/want it will
have their own mobile data connectivity, and it's yet more electronic
kit for the train - but no tray tables is a daft omission.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

Mizter T wrote:

On 7/29/2016 6:12 PM, Recliner wrote:
[...]
The DfT ordered the TL class 700s, and did it in such an inept way that
Siemens won, not because it was offering a better or cheaper train, but
because the company had a better credit rating. Had the trains been
ordered through a ROSCO they'd certainly be cheaper, and would probably
have included features that the civil servants forgot, such as tray tables
and wifi.


I haven't followed that story closely - so Siemen's superior credit
rating is what won it?! Somewhat bizarre.

One imagines that the missing tray tables must have been bought up by
Siemens.

Missing wifi I can kinda understand - those who really need/want it will
have their own mobile data connectivity, and it's yet more electronic
kit for the train - but no tray tables is a daft omission.

From
http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk...-trains-QA.pdf

"It has been decided not to have tables in standard class. Passenger
research for the rail watchdog, Passenger Focus and London TravelWatch
showed that people recognised the main priority was to maximise capacity.
Seat tables are a nice to have but they also slow people down getting on
and off trains – and we’ll have just 30 seconds to get people on and off
these new trains in central London.
Our priority is to get more people from A to B as quickly and as reliably
as possible. These new trains will give us more carriages and more capacity
and much better reliability than existing trains, which is what people
want.

....

Wi-Fi was not included in the original specification laid out in 2008.
However, the trains have been designed to make it as easy as possible for
Wi-Fi (or an alternative next generation technology) to be fitted."


Of course, the actual order was confirmed in, I think, 2013, not 2008, when
discussions first started. So there's really no good reason why the spec
wasn't updated to include Wi-Fi in the intervening five years of debate,
discussion and negotiation.

The reason it all took so long was that the DfT wished to place the order
itself, as it thought it could do better than the hated ROSCOs. The
manufacturers had to finance the trains, as the Treasury wanted the
purchase to be off the government's books, and that's where Siemens (with
its much better credit rating) had the advantage over Bombardier. Of
course, the government could have borrowed the money itself much more
cheaply than either manufacturer...

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

In uk.transport.london Recliner wrote:
"It has been decided not to have tables in standard class. Passenger
research for the rail watchdog, Passenger Focus and London TravelWatch
showed that people recognised the main priority was to maximise capacity.
Seat tables are a nice to have but they also slow people down getting on
and off trains – and we’ll have just 30 seconds to get people on and off
these new trains in central London.

It is noticeable that the 365 'refresh' has removed the tray tables,
procured by the very same TOC.

They were of limited usefulness: had a hole for a cup and a small space, but
not enough to put much on, and tended to collect dirt. However they were
also a useful shelf to prop up a laptop.

^MOur priority is to get more people from A to B as quickly and as reliably
as possible. These new trains will give us more carriages and more capacity
and much better reliability than existing trains, which is what people
want.

But some of those people will be doing two hour journeys and working on the
train is a thing, sources reveal.

Of course, the actual order was confirmed in, I think, 2013, not 2008, when
discussions first started. So there's really no good reason why the spec
wasn't updated to include Wi-Fi in the intervening five years of debate,
discussion and negotiation.

Is there any plan to fit them with wifi post-delivery?
And do they allow or block mobile signals?
(not a panacea, so many gadgets omitting a GSM radio)

Theo

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

In article ,
(Theo) wrote:

In uk.transport.london Recliner wrote:
"It has been decided not to have tables in standard class. Passenger
research for the rail watchdog, Passenger Focus and London TravelWatch
showed that people recognised the main priority was to maximise
capacity. Seat tables are a nice to have but they also slow people down
getting on and off trains _ and we_ll have just 30 seconds to get people
on and off these new trains in central London.

It is noticeable that the 365 'refresh' has removed the tray tables,
procured by the very same TOC.

I can't believe the 365 tables (there are still some I'm sure) are large
enough to affect dwell times.

They were of limited usefulness: had a hole for a cup and a small space,
but not enough to put much on, and tended to collect dirt. However they
were also a useful shelf to prop up a laptop.

No hole for a cup. Your memory is faulty.

^MOur priority is to get more people from A to B as quickly and as
reliably as possible. These new trains will give us more carriages and
more capacity and much better reliability than existing trains, which is
what people want.

But some of those people will be doing two hour journeys and working on
the train is a thing, sources reveal.

I think it's a Siemens thing. There are no tables of any sort on the 450s
and they have catering trolleys on some journeys!

Of course, the actual order was confirmed in, I think, 2013, not 2008,
when discussions first started. So there's really no good reason why the
spec wasn't updated to include Wi-Fi in the intervening five years of
debate, discussion and negotiation.

Is there any plan to fit them with wifi post-delivery?

Allegedly.

And do they allow or block mobile signals?
(not a panacea, so many gadgets omitting a GSM radio)

Where do you get that idea?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 03/08/2016 01:01, wrote:
In article ,

And do they allow or block mobile signals?
(not a panacea, so many gadgets omitting a GSM radio)

Where do you get that idea?

Didn't one lot of Virgin X-Country trains get covered with some form of
foil wrap that blocked GSM signals?

The point was aesthetic rather than a deliberate attempt to prevent "I'M
ON THE TRAIN" conversations but nevertheless that was the net effect.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On Tue, 02 Aug 2016 19:01:54 -0500
wrote:
In article ,
Of course, the actual order was confirmed in, I think, 2013, not 2008,
when discussions first started. So there's really no good reason why the
spec wasn't updated to include Wi-Fi in the intervening five years of
debate, discussion and negotiation.

Is there any plan to fit them with wifi post-delivery?

Allegedly.

Out of interest, does anyone know how the uplink in train wifi is done in the
UK? Does it use the cellular network or is it a proprietary radio system?

--
Spud

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

In message , at 08:25:38 on Wed, 3 Aug
2016, d remarked:
Of course, the actual order was confirmed in, I think, 2013, not 2008,
when discussions first started. So there's really no good reason why the
spec wasn't updated to include Wi-Fi in the intervening five years of
debate, discussion and negotiation.

Is there any plan to fit them with wifi post-delivery?

Allegedly.

Out of interest, does anyone know how the uplink in train wifi is done in the
UK? Does it use the cellular network or is it a proprietary radio system?

It's a mixture of satellite and HSDPA mobile. Coverage can be very
patchy outside of urban areas. The main problem with the Elizabeth Line
will be whether there's any mobile coverage in the tunnels. Existing HEx
tunnels do have GSM coverage.
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 09:35:58 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:25:38 on Wed, 3 Aug
2016, d remarked:
Of course, the actual order was confirmed in, I think, 2013, not 2008,
when discussions first started. So there's really no good reason why the
spec wasn't updated to include Wi-Fi in the intervening five years of
debate, discussion and negotiation.

Is there any plan to fit them with wifi post-delivery?

Allegedly.

Out of interest, does anyone know how the uplink in train wifi is done in the
UK? Does it use the cellular network or is it a proprietary radio system?

It's a mixture of satellite and HSDPA mobile. Coverage can be very

Satellite on a moving train? Doesn't sound like a reliable system with the
train rocking and bouncing and changing direction all the time plus buildings
getting in the way. I know its used on aircraft but turbulence aside the body
pitching and rolling is generally fairly slow.

--
Spud

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

Recliner wrote:
It replaces Heathrow Connect, which terminates at T4. HEx has T5. But I
still doubt the long term future of HEx. If it gets merged into Crossrail,
then all the terminals would be served by the same Tube and Rail services,
which would be much simpler.

Assuming a unified fares structure, does the layout preclude HEx
trains running into the Crossrail tunnel? eg fast Heathrow-Paddington, then
taking the tunnel and going to Abbey Wood, say? I can understand Heathrow
passengers not wanting an additional 6 stops between Heathrow and
Paddington.

Actually, I don't think I've seen the service pattern fully described
anywhere. (ie which branches will be joined together, what will fast and
slow trains do, how many trains will turn back and where - the 'route
diagrams', not just 'X trains per hour to central London'). Has it been
publically stated?

Theo

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

In message , at 10:16:19 on Wed, 3 Aug
2016, d remarked:
Out of interest, does anyone know how the uplink in train wifi is done in the
UK? Does it use the cellular network or is it a proprietary radio system?

It's a mixture of satellite and HSDPA mobile. Coverage can be very

Satellite on a moving train? Doesn't sound like a reliable system with the
train rocking and bouncing and changing direction all the time plus buildings
getting in the way. I know its used on aircraft but turbulence aside the body
pitching and rolling is generally fairly slow.

https://artes-apps.esa.int/sites/def...A%20ARTES%20Wo
rkshop%20Broadband%20to%20Trains.pdf?

I've also seen satellite Internet fitted to a mobile home (not sure if
it was intended to be used on the move though).
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 11:48:51 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:16:19 on Wed, 3 Aug
2016, d remarked:
Out of interest, does anyone know how the uplink in train wifi is done in
the
UK? Does it use the cellular network or is it a proprietary radio system?

It's a mixture of satellite and HSDPA mobile. Coverage can be very

Satellite on a moving train? Doesn't sound like a reliable system with the
train rocking and bouncing and changing direction all the time plus buildings
getting in the way. I know its used on aircraft but turbulence aside the body
pitching and rolling is generally fairly slow.

https://artes-apps.esa.int/sites/def...A%20ARTES%20Wo
rkshop%20Broadband%20to%20Trains.pdf?

Interesting. That new phased array certainly makes more sense on a moving train
than a physically steered dish IMO.

--
Spud

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 03 Aug 2016 11:29:56 +0100 (BST), Theo
wrote:

Recliner wrote:
It replaces Heathrow Connect, which terminates at T4. HEx has T5. But I
still doubt the long term future of HEx. If it gets merged into Crossrail,
then all the terminals would be served by the same Tube and Rail services,
which would be much simpler.

Assuming a unified fares structure, does the layout preclude HEx
trains running into the Crossrail tunnel? eg fast Heathrow-Paddington, then
taking the tunnel and going to Abbey Wood, say? I can understand Heathrow
passengers not wanting an additional 6 stops between Heathrow and
Paddington.

No, only the Relief lines are connected to the tunnel. Trains on the
Main lines would have to cross the Reliefs on the flat to access the
tunnel.


Actually, I don't think I've seen the service pattern fully described
anywhere. (ie which branches will be joined together, what will fast and
slow trains do, how many trains will turn back and where - the 'route
diagrams', not just 'X trains per hour to central London'). Has it been
publically stated?

From memory, there will be four Abbey Wood trains an hour to Heathrow.
The two Reading trains will go to the Shenfield branch. All the
Crossrail trains are, I think, stoppers.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 08:25:38 on Wed, 3 Aug
2016, d remarked:
Of course, the actual order was confirmed in, I think, 2013, not
2008, when discussions first started. So there's really no good
reason why the spec wasn't updated to include Wi-Fi in the
intervening five years of debate, discussion and negotiation.

Is there any plan to fit them with wifi post-delivery?

Allegedly.

Out of interest, does anyone know how the uplink in train wifi is done
in the UK? Does it use the cellular network or is it a proprietary radio
system?

It's a mixture of satellite and HSDPA mobile. Coverage can be very
patchy outside of urban areas. The main problem with the Elizabeth
Line will be whether there's any mobile coverage in the tunnels.
Existing HEx tunnels do have GSM coverage.

I bet the tunnels will have leaky feeder aerials for 4G or some other radio
technology. It's a well-established technology. At work (still Philips then)
we did most of the central London tube stations for emergency coverage after
the King's Cross fire. That was for voice comms. Data is probably easier.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On Tue, 02 Aug 2016 19:01:54 -0500,
wrote:

I think it's a Siemens thing. There are no tables of any sort on the 450s
and they have catering trolleys on some journeys!

Plenty of tables on the 444 though... Specify the wrong train, and
you'll get it!

Richard.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 09:35:58 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

[...] The main problem with the Elizabeth Line
will be whether there's any mobile coverage in the tunnels. Existing HEx
tunnels do have GSM coverage.

I'd be surprised if there isn't, but then I'm still surprised that the
HS1 tunnels are not fitted. After all, they will have had GSM-R
installed.

Richard.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

In article ,
(Richard) wrote:

On Tue, 02 Aug 2016 19:01:54 -0500,
wrote:

I think it's a Siemens thing. There are no tables of any sort on the 450s
and they have catering trolleys on some journeys!

Plenty of tables on the 444 though... Specify the wrong train, and
you'll get it!

Specify the wrong numbers of trains and you get inner suburban trains used
on long distance (Portsmouth fast) services.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

Theo wrote:
In uk.transport.london Recliner wrote:

^MOur priority is to get more people from A to B as quickly and as reliably
as possible. These new trains will give us more carriages and more capacity
and much better reliability than existing trains, which is what people
want.

But some of those people will be doing two hour journeys and working on the
train is a thing, sources reveal.

How likely is it that anyone other than the driver will actually be on the
train for that length of time? The routes and stopping patterns seem to be
arranged in a way that the overwhelming majority of journeys will be a lot
shorter.

Robin