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Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
In message
-sept ember.org, at 22:03:56 on Thu, 25 Aug 2016, Recliner remarked: And I still fail to understand how it will work with a graphical app. Perhaps you should try it? Got any rich friends with an iPhone you could borrow for a couple of hours?? It would probably work on one of my iPads. And maybe there's an Android equivalent or two; there usually are. But as it's of no relevance to me, I don't think I'll bother. If you are happy to fail to understand, then don't bleat about it here. Looks really easy for a blind person, doesn't it: https://help.uber.com/h/902465fa-f22...4-59940446e792 Yes it does. -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
On Fri, 26 Aug 2016 08:05:03 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message -sept ember.org, at 22:03:56 on Thu, 25 Aug 2016, Recliner remarked: And I still fail to understand how it will work with a graphical app. Perhaps you should try it? Got any rich friends with an iPhone you could borrow for a couple of hours?? It would probably work on one of my iPads. And maybe there's an Android equivalent or two; there usually are. But as it's of no relevance to me, I don't think I'll bother. If you are happy to fail to understand, then don't bleat about it here. Looks really easy for a blind person, doesn't it: https://help.uber.com/h/902465fa-f22...4-59940446e792 Yes it does. Compared to what, them trying to run through a maze without hitting a wall? I realise that a number of people here think newer technology solves every problem better than the previous iteration, but the occasional reality check might be in order now and then just so you don't come across as a complete berk. My mother had poor eyesight and even had trouble operating a calculator that spoke the numbers when you pressed the buttons and spoke the result. The chances of her operating an app like that with speech would have been zero. -- Spud |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
wrote:
On Fri, 26 Aug 2016 08:05:03 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message -sept ember.org, at 22:03:56 on Thu, 25 Aug 2016, Recliner remarked: And I still fail to understand how it will work with a graphical app. Perhaps you should try it? Got any rich friends with an iPhone you could borrow for a couple of hours?? It would probably work on one of my iPads. And maybe there's an Android equivalent or two; there usually are. But as it's of no relevance to me, I don't think I'll bother. If you are happy to fail to understand, then don't bleat about it here. Looks really easy for a blind person, doesn't it: https://help.uber.com/h/902465fa-f22...4-59940446e792 Yes it does. Compared to what, them trying to run through a maze without hitting a wall? I realise that a number of people here think newer technology solves every problem better than the previous iteration, but the occasional reality check might be in order now and then just so you don't come across as a complete berk. My mother had poor eyesight and even had trouble operating a calculator that spoke the numbers when you pressed the buttons and spoke the result. The chances of her operating an app like that with speech would have been zero. Yes, rather than navigate that app, I'd have thought a blind or partiality-sighted person would far rather phone a trusted minicab company on speed dial, using a conventional phone with tactile buttons. |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
On Fri, 26 Aug 2016 10:17:12 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:31:17 on Fri, 26 Aug 2016, d remarked: Looks really easy for a blind person, doesn't it: https://help.uber.com/h/902465fa-f22...4-59940446e792 Yes it does. Compared to what, them trying to run through a maze without hitting a wall? I realise that a number of people here think newer technology solves every problem better than the previous iteration, but the occasional reality check might be in order now and then just so you don't come across as a complete berk. I'm constantly amazed by the ability of blind persons to navigate (literally and metaphorically) the modern world, and after all they'll have had years of practice. There's a big difference between navigating a physical world with touch feedback and trying to use a flat screen with none other than a voice that may or may not help. -- Spud |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
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Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 02:24:00PM -0000, Recliner wrote:
David Cantrell wrote: On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 02:48:12PM -0000, Recliner wrote: David Cantrell wrote: There are four, right now, within 500 yards of my flat. I suspect you're near the sort of traffic magnet that attracts Uber drivers. They don't otherwise hang around residential areas. I'd love to know what traffic magnet there is near CR7 8JH during the middle of a working day. Thornton Heath station, a Tesco superstore, a shopping parade with restaurants, etc. Or as Londoners call it, "nothing unusual". The app doesn't show Uber's drivers congregating there in any case, it mostly shows them scattered on little residential streets where, presumably, they have just dropped people off. -- David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world You can't judge a book by its cover, unless you're a religious nutcase |
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the same and they vary hugely in their ability to cope on their own without help. Just to give one example: a woman who still had some sight insisted she could not place her front door key in the lock, and demanded someone else do it for her. Another woman who was totally blind became annoyed when I told her this story and said the other woman was a disgrace. A blind friend of mine startled, indeed astonished, me by saying that she didn't mind being blind but felt sorry for people who were deaf which she regarded as a far worse disability. |
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rest of the time they work as minicab drivers with a local firm. So they have two pieces of communication equipment in the car. In practice what happens is that they log on with their local firm, and as and when it becomes "quiet" they turn on the Uber app. At this point Uber customers can see them on their screens. My guess is that most of the drivers showing on the Uber app in the suburbs are working for two firms. |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
On Fri, 26 Aug 2016 11:08:37 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:02:19 on Fri, 26 Aug 2016, d remarked: I'm constantly amazed by the ability of blind persons to navigate (literally and metaphorically) the modern world, and after all they'll have had years of practice. There's a big difference between navigating a physical world with touch feedback and trying to use a flat screen with none other than a voice that may or may not help. Clearly, in this case the accessibility software does work. Unless there is some documentated verification by someone who is blind that this is the case I'll take it with a pinch. You can have the smartest software in the world in the phone, but it can't change the physical hardware which is a touch screen with no tactile feedback. -- Spud |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
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Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:51:03 on Sun, 28 Aug 2016, d remarked: I'm constantly amazed by the ability of blind persons to navigate (literally and metaphorically) the modern world, and after all they'll have had years of practice. There's a big difference between navigating a physical world with touch feedback and trying to use a flat screen with none other than a voice that may or may not help. Clearly, in this case the accessibility software does work. Unless there is some documentated verification by someone who is blind that this is the case I'll take it with a pinch. The evidence is the way the accessibility software exists (if it didn't work it would have been discontinued by now) and how Uber has a document explaining how to use it. That's because it has been told to comply with ADA, not because a single person uses it. http://www.recode.net/2015/9/18/1161...d-a-surprising http://www.newmobility.com/2015/01/f...er-comply-ada/ https://www.ada.gov/briefs/uber_soi.pdf http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ply-to-us.html |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
In message
-septe mber.org, at 06:57:05 on Mon, 29 Aug 2016, Recliner remarked: Unless there is some documentated verification by someone who is blind that this is the case I'll take it with a pinch. The evidence is the way the accessibility software exists (if it didn't work it would have been discontinued by now) and how Uber has a document explaining how to use it. That's because it has been told to comply with ADA, not because a single person uses it. http://www.recode.net/2015/9/18/1161...d-a-surprising http://www.newmobility.com/2015/01/f...er-comply-ada/ https://www.ada.gov/briefs/uber_soi.pdf http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ply-to-us.html Which of those say it's not used (I don't have time to read them all). -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
Roland Perry wrote:
In message -septe mber.org, at 06:57:05 on Mon, 29 Aug 2016, Recliner remarked: Unless there is some documentated verification by someone who is blind that this is the case I'll take it with a pinch. The evidence is the way the accessibility software exists (if it didn't work it would have been discontinued by now) and how Uber has a document explaining how to use it. That's because it has been told to comply with ADA, not because a single person uses it. http://www.recode.net/2015/9/18/1161...d-a-surprising http://www.newmobility.com/2015/01/f...er-comply-ada/ https://www.ada.gov/briefs/uber_soi.pdf http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ply-to-us.html Which of those say it's not used (I don't have time to read them all). They don't day it isn't used (no-one seems to know). They do say Uber claimed it didn't need to comply with ADA, but was forced to do so. There's another story about the app itself: https://www.buzzfeed.com/wilbutler/u...JoW#.sfoAmlQJl Quote: Blind people have been largely unable to access Uber on iPhone for more than six weeks, despite activists’ repeated requests for a bug fix. Though the company has partially addressed the problem, blind activists say it’s still hard — in some cases, prohibitively so — to use. “They’ve somewhat addressed one issue, but they’ve created others,” Scott Blanks, deputy director of the San Francisco LightHouse for the Blind and Visually Impaired, told BuzzFeed News. “It is by no means a fix. It’s concerning to me that after multiple phone calls, this is still an issue.” Most blind iOS users rely on VoiceOver, the screen reader built into every new iPhone that works (almost) perfectly with all native apps. But on Jan. 26, Uber released an update that rendered the “Request UberX” button, among other functions, effectively invisible to the VoiceOver reader. And the fixes the company has since issued have failed to fully address the problem. .... This isn’t the first time Uber has raised the ire of accessibility advocates. After a series of incidents in which Uber drivers denied blind passengers rides, the California branch of the National Federation of the Blind has alleged that Uber is violating the Americans with Disabilities Act. Uber filed to have the case dismissed, but on March 3, a federal judge tentatively ruled that the lawsuit could proceed. “It’s disappointing that Uber has chosen to try to litigate this case rather than sitting down at the table with us to negotiate a mutually beneficial solution,” said Tim Elder, who is representing multiple plaintiffs in the case. “Uber has the potential to be wonderful for blind people, and the plaintiffs are trying to ensure that that potential is realized for all blind people, including blind people with service animals.” |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
In message
-septem ber.org, at 07:18:44 on Mon, 29 Aug 2016, Recliner remarked: Most blind iOS users rely on VoiceOver, the screen reader built into every new iPhone that works (almost) perfectly with all native apps. Well, there you go. It does work after all. -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
"Recliner" wrote in message ... Roland Perry wrote: In message -septe mber.org, at 06:57:05 on Mon, 29 Aug 2016, Recliner remarked: Unless there is some documentated verification by someone who is blind that this is the case I'll take it with a pinch. The evidence is the way the accessibility software exists (if it didn't work it would have been discontinued by now) and how Uber has a document explaining how to use it. That's because it has been told to comply with ADA, not because a single person uses it. http://www.recode.net/2015/9/18/1161...d-a-surprising http://www.newmobility.com/2015/01/f...er-comply-ada/ https://www.ada.gov/briefs/uber_soi.pdf http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ply-to-us.html Which of those say it's not used (I don't have time to read them all). They don't day it isn't used (no-one seems to know). They do say Uber claimed it didn't need to comply with ADA, but was forced to do so. which kind of proves my earlier point, that you denied to the extent of insulting me for believing it, that Uber's MO is to ignore compliance with local laws until forced to do so. tim |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
Roland Perry wrote:
In message -septem ber.org, at 07:18:44 on Mon, 29 Aug 2016, Recliner remarked: Most blind iOS users rely on VoiceOver, the screen reader built into every new iPhone that works (almost) perfectly with all native apps. Well, there you go. It does work after all. .... some of the time. |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
In message
-septe mber.org, at 08:02:17 on Mon, 29 Aug 2016, Recliner remarked: Most blind iOS users rely on VoiceOver, the screen reader built into every new iPhone that works (almost) perfectly with all native apps. Well, there you go. It does work after all. ... some of the time. Most of the time apparently (until a broken-app comes along). -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
tim... wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message ... Roland Perry wrote: In message -septe mber.org, at 06:57:05 on Mon, 29 Aug 2016, Recliner remarked: Unless there is some documentated verification by someone who is blind that this is the case I'll take it with a pinch. The evidence is the way the accessibility software exists (if it didn't work it would have been discontinued by now) and how Uber has a document explaining how to use it. That's because it has been told to comply with ADA, not because a single person uses it. http://www.recode.net/2015/9/18/1161...d-a-surprising http://www.newmobility.com/2015/01/f...er-comply-ada/ https://www.ada.gov/briefs/uber_soi.pdf http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ply-to-us.html Which of those say it's not used (I don't have time to read them all). They don't day it isn't used (no-one seems to know). They do say Uber claimed it didn't need to comply with ADA, but was forced to do so. which kind of proves my earlier point, that you denied to the extent of insulting me for believing it, that Uber's MO is to ignore compliance with local laws until forced to do so. No, I was asking you for evidence that they were any worse than other minicab firms. You alleged that they were, but with no evidence. As far as I can see, they do just enough to comply, in each country in which they operate. That can mean they're actually better than local minicab firms, as customers in undemanding countries will benefit from some of the features that were added to comply with rules in more demanding countries. |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
"Recliner" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... Roland Perry wrote: In message -septe mber.org, at 06:57:05 on Mon, 29 Aug 2016, Recliner remarked: Unless there is some documentated verification by someone who is blind that this is the case I'll take it with a pinch. The evidence is the way the accessibility software exists (if it didn't work it would have been discontinued by now) and how Uber has a document explaining how to use it. That's because it has been told to comply with ADA, not because a single person uses it. http://www.recode.net/2015/9/18/1161...d-a-surprising http://www.newmobility.com/2015/01/f...er-comply-ada/ https://www.ada.gov/briefs/uber_soi.pdf http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ply-to-us.html Which of those say it's not used (I don't have time to read them all). They don't day it isn't used (no-one seems to know). They do say Uber claimed it didn't need to comply with ADA, but was forced to do so. which kind of proves my earlier point, that you denied to the extent of insulting me for believing it, that Uber's MO is to ignore compliance with local laws until forced to do so. No, I was asking you for evidence that they were any worse than other minicab firms. You alleged that they were, but with no evidence. The evidence is that they argue that the rules don't apply to them because they aren't a cab company, but a tech company (and as a new start-up deserve special favours) they aren't and they don't tim |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
In message , at 11:34:49 on Mon, 29 Aug
2016, tim... remarked: No, I was asking you for evidence that they were any worse than other minicab firms. You alleged that they were, but with no evidence. The evidence is that they argue that the rules don't apply to them because they aren't a cab company, but a tech company (and as a new start-up deserve special favours) hat's true, and to some extent I can see their point - about being a tech company. eBay doesn't claim to be responsible for the regulatory compliance of every item that their users put up for sale. It just puts buyers and sellers in touch. Having said that, they do have a rather long list of things you aren't allowed to sell: including train tickets. Uber's "problem", if we can call it that, is only having one product for sale, and so people assume it's up to speed with the compliance of its sellers. On the other hand, such problems don't appear to affect TheTrainlne, unless I've missed all the complaints that they refuse to pay compensation when the train is late, or people don't get a seat. -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
tim... wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... Roland Perry wrote: In message -septe mber.org, at 06:57:05 on Mon, 29 Aug 2016, Recliner remarked: Unless there is some documentated verification by someone who is blind that this is the case I'll take it with a pinch. The evidence is the way the accessibility software exists (if it didn't work it would have been discontinued by now) and how Uber has a document explaining how to use it. That's because it has been told to comply with ADA, not because a single person uses it. http://www.recode.net/2015/9/18/1161...d-a-surprising http://www.newmobility.com/2015/01/f...er-comply-ada/ https://www.ada.gov/briefs/uber_soi.pdf http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ply-to-us.html Which of those say it's not used (I don't have time to read them all). They don't day it isn't used (no-one seems to know). They do say Uber claimed it didn't need to comply with ADA, but was forced to do so. which kind of proves my earlier point, that you denied to the extent of insulting me for believing it, that Uber's MO is to ignore compliance with local laws until forced to do so. No, I was asking you for evidence that they were any worse than other minicab firms. You alleged that they were, but with no evidence. The evidence is that they argue that the rules don't apply to them because they aren't a cab company, but a tech company (and as a new start-up deserve special favours) they aren't and they don't They certainly try to argue that they are an agent for the self-employed cab drivers, not a cab company. But do you have any examples of where they've asked for special favours as a start-up? |
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arguing that they are not a cab company and that the rules about cabbing don't apply to them? My impression has been that Uber have always insisted that they are complying with all the rules and requirements. TfL have confirmed that Uber are in compliance. |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
On Mon, 29 Aug 2016 12:13:12 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: Uber's "problem", if we can call it that, is only having one product for sale, and so people assume it's up to speed with the compliance of its sellers. On the other hand, such problems don't appear to affect TheTrainlne, unless I've missed all the complaints that they refuse to pay compensation when the train is late, or people don't get a seat. I think the difference is that rail is very heavily regulated, and although they might differ on how good their sites/apps are, all retailers have to meet the same requirements and will know the rules inside-out, including the various Delay Repay variants. For me, the equivalent would be Uber only selling black cabs *and* there being an established process for anyone selling those online. I don't use Uber - if I need a taxi, it's always to Heathrow at an appalling time and I use one of two very good local companies. If there is to be a decline in the black cab trade in London, I'd be sad, but can't quite put my finger on why. Expensive, but quality - known the world over - and accessible to everyone. A symbol of the city. Perhaps that's it... mostly emotion. Richard. |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
On 17/08/2016 15:36, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 15:05:49 on Wed, 17 Aug 2016, tim... remarked: With Uber, you have to have an account, before you can use it at all. Cash isn't an option, and nor can you just order an Uber car without first setting up an account. You might just as well argue that there's a deterrent to using the Dartford crossing as you (almost) can't pay for that without setting up an account If I can chip in here, yes that is deterrent. I've avoided it ever since. On the other hand I used the M6 toll for the first time a couple of months ago, and all you have to do is lean out of the car and use any old contactless credit card. Erm, it's not that difficult, really. (1) Navigate oneself to... https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge (2) Click on "Start now" and be taken to... https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/Choose (3) Click on "Make a one off payment" and click on "Next" It's not an ideal interface, but my principle complaint would be that accessing an existing account isn't straightforward. (An aside - the payments pages are labelled "Alpha", still - similar is found elsewhere on GOV.UK. I think it's an inappropriate and misleading use of the terminology, and one that won't be understood by many.) Re the M6 toll - you almost make it sound like "any old contactless credit card" is required... the staffed booths happily take a handful of coins! |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
In message , at 23:42:45 on Tue, 13 Sep
2016, Mizter T remarked: On 17/08/2016 15:36, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 15:05:49 on Wed, 17 Aug 2016, tim... remarked: With Uber, you have to have an account, before you can use it at all. Cash isn't an option, and nor can you just order an Uber car without first setting up an account. You might just as well argue that there's a deterrent to using the Dartford crossing as you (almost) can't pay for that without setting up an account If I can chip in here, yes that is deterrent. I've avoided it ever since. On the other hand I used the M6 toll for the first time a couple of months ago, and all you have to do is lean out of the car and use any old contactless credit card. Erm, it's not that difficult, really. (1) Navigate oneself to... https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge (2) Click on "Start now" and be taken to... https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/Choose (3) Click on "Make a one off payment" and click on "Next" And carry on for several more screens entering various data. Do they free wifi at the Eurotunnel holding pens, so you can do this after arriving via Dartford? (Smartphone users only, need apply). It's not an ideal interface, but my principle complaint would be that accessing an existing account isn't straightforward. (An aside - the payments pages are labelled "Alpha", still - similar is found elsewhere on GOV.UK. I think it's an inappropriate and misleading use of the terminology, and one that won't be understood by many.) Re the M6 toll - you almost make it sound like "any old contactless credit card" is required... the staffed booths happily take a handful of coins! I was surprised they had any manned booths, there's obviously a lot of goat herders using the road. -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
On 14/09/2016 09:17, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 23:42:45 on Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Mizter T remarked: [...] You might just as well argue that there's a deterrent to using the Dartford crossing as you (almost) can't pay for that without setting up an account If I can chip in here, yes that is deterrent. I've avoided it ever since. On the other hand I used the M6 toll for the first time a couple of months ago, and all you have to do is lean out of the car and use any old contactless credit card. Erm, it's not that difficult, really. (1) Navigate oneself to... https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge (2) Click on "Start now" and be taken to... https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/Choose (3) Click on "Make a one off payment" and click on "Next" And carry on for several more screens entering various data. Four screens by my count, with the following info requested: (1) Enter vehicle reg number (2) Confirm the vehicle make & model (no need to enter this, it's taken from the DVLA database) (3) Choose how many crossings you wish to pay for (they are valid for up to a year) (4) Enter and confirm email address for receipt (5) Enter payment card details They're not asking for anything more than the bare minimum of info needed. It's much the same as paying the London CC charge. Do they free wifi at the Eurotunnel holding pens, so you can do this after arriving via Dartford? (Smartphone users only, need apply). The terminal buildings have wifi, yes. Many/most smartphone users will have a data allowance, and the mobile version of the Dart Charge website is lightweight. If that's all too hard, then there's the call centre - 0300 300 0120, open 5am to midnight. It's not an ideal interface, but my principle complaint would be that accessing an existing account isn't straightforward. (An aside - the payments pages are labelled "Alpha", still - similar is found elsewhere on GOV.UK. I think it's an inappropriate and misleading use of the terminology, and one that won't be understood by many.) Re the M6 toll - you almost make it sound like "any old contactless credit card" is required... the staffed booths happily take a handful of coins! I was surprised they had any manned booths, there's obviously a lot of goat herders using the road. On the French autoroutes nowadays there seem to be few staffed booths, though the automatic payment machines take notes and coins as well as credit/debit cards (and I'm pretty sure they give change as well). |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
In message , at 10:00:38 on Wed, 14 Sep
2016, Mizter T remarked: Erm, it's not that difficult, really. (1) Navigate oneself to... https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge (2) Click on "Start now" and be taken to... https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/Choose (3) Click on "Make a one off payment" and click on "Next" And carry on for several more screens entering various data. Four screens by my count, with the following info requested: (1) Enter vehicle reg number (2) Confirm the vehicle make & model (no need to enter this, it's taken from the DVLA database) (3) Choose how many crossings you wish to pay for (they are valid for up to a year) (4) Enter and confirm email address for receipt (5) Enter payment card details They're not asking for anything more than the bare minimum of info needed. It's much the same as paying the London CC charge. I agree the London CC doesn't lend itself to contactless (leaning out of your car on Park Lane at 40mph), but the palaver above is a monstrous bit of cost externalisation and should never have been allowed. -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
On 14/09/2016 10:23, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:00:38 on Wed, 14 Sep 2016, Mizter T remarked: Erm, it's not that difficult, really. (1) Navigate oneself to... https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge (2) Click on "Start now" and be taken to... https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/Choose (3) Click on "Make a one off payment" and click on "Next" And carry on for several more screens entering various data. Four screens by my count, with the following info requested: (1) Enter vehicle reg number (2) Confirm the vehicle make & model (no need to enter this, it's taken from the DVLA database) (3) Choose how many crossings you wish to pay for (they are valid for up to a year) (4) Enter and confirm email address for receipt (5) Enter payment card details They're not asking for anything more than the bare minimum of info needed. It's much the same as paying the London CC charge. I agree the London CC doesn't lend itself to contactless (leaning out of your car on Park Lane at 40mph), but the palaver above is a monstrous bit of cost externalisation and should never have been allowed. The entire point of the exercise was not about cost externalisation but improving traffic flow at the crossing - everything I've read and heard suggests that this has essentially been successful, though 'sheer weight of traffic' can't be solved by free flow tolling. So I disagree with you. I do however think some aspects of the tolling arrangements could be better, but the underlying concept of free flow tolling at this crossing is sound. It works elsewhere just fine. |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
On 14.09.16 10:00, Mizter T wrote:
On 14/09/2016 09:17, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 23:42:45 on Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Mizter T remarked: [...] You might just as well argue that there's a deterrent to using the Dartford crossing as you (almost) can't pay for that without setting up an account If I can chip in here, yes that is deterrent. I've avoided it ever since. On the other hand I used the M6 toll for the first time a couple of months ago, and all you have to do is lean out of the car and use any old contactless credit card. Erm, it's not that difficult, really. (1) Navigate oneself to... https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge (2) Click on "Start now" and be taken to... https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/Choose (3) Click on "Make a one off payment" and click on "Next" And carry on for several more screens entering various data. Four screens by my count, with the following info requested: (1) Enter vehicle reg number (2) Confirm the vehicle make & model (no need to enter this, it's taken from the DVLA database) (3) Choose how many crossings you wish to pay for (they are valid for up to a year) (4) Enter and confirm email address for receipt (5) Enter payment card details They're not asking for anything more than the bare minimum of info needed. It's much the same as paying the London CC charge. Do they free wifi at the Eurotunnel holding pens, so you can do this after arriving via Dartford? (Smartphone users only, need apply). The terminal buildings have wifi, yes. Many/most smartphone users will have a data allowance, and the mobile version of the Dart Charge website is lightweight. If that's all too hard, then there's the call centre - 0300 300 0120, open 5am to midnight. It's not an ideal interface, but my principle complaint would be that accessing an existing account isn't straightforward. (An aside - the payments pages are labelled "Alpha", still - similar is found elsewhere on GOV.UK. I think it's an inappropriate and misleading use of the terminology, and one that won't be understood by many.) Re the M6 toll - you almost make it sound like "any old contactless credit card" is required... the staffed booths happily take a handful of coins! I was surprised they had any manned booths, there's obviously a lot of goat herders using the road. On the French autoroutes nowadays there seem to be few staffed booths, though the automatic payment machines take notes and coins as well as credit/debit cards (and I'm pretty sure they give change as well). I imagine that those will eventually go, though there will likely be lanes that lorries will have to go through at a lower speed for weight measurement while a smart camera photographs the vehicle registration plate. I have heard of cases in the United States where all the infrastructure is gone and they simply use smart cameras to photograph vehicles. Thus negating the need for drivers to have a transponder of any sort and slowing traffic. |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
On 14.09.16 13:09, Mizter T wrote:
On 14/09/2016 10:23, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:00:38 on Wed, 14 Sep 2016, Mizter T remarked: Erm, it's not that difficult, really. (1) Navigate oneself to... https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge (2) Click on "Start now" and be taken to... https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/Choose (3) Click on "Make a one off payment" and click on "Next" And carry on for several more screens entering various data. Four screens by my count, with the following info requested: (1) Enter vehicle reg number (2) Confirm the vehicle make & model (no need to enter this, it's taken from the DVLA database) (3) Choose how many crossings you wish to pay for (they are valid for up to a year) (4) Enter and confirm email address for receipt (5) Enter payment card details They're not asking for anything more than the bare minimum of info needed. It's much the same as paying the London CC charge. I agree the London CC doesn't lend itself to contactless (leaning out of your car on Park Lane at 40mph), but the palaver above is a monstrous bit of cost externalisation and should never have been allowed. The entire point of the exercise was not about cost externalisation but improving traffic flow at the crossing - everything I've read and heard suggests that this has essentially been successful, though 'sheer weight of traffic' can't be solved by free flow tolling. Doesn't Athens allow alternate days for vehicles, depending on their vehicle registration plate? Those who go in on an off day face a very heavy fine, AIUI. |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
In message , at 10:14:37 on Thu, 15 Sep
2016, Clive D.W. Feather remarked: Have you ever met David Blunkett and seen how well he copes despite being blind? Yes. I was about to get out of a lift at the Home Office and he walked straight at me; I had no chance to avoid him. [I thought you were there as well, but perhaps it was Richard Clayton.] The funny thing is, a week before he was made Home Secretary the Home Office lifts were retro-fitted with the system that announces which floor they are at. The staff took this as a tip-off regarding who their next boss was going to be. -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 13:09:26 on Wed, 14 Sep 2016, Mizter T remarked: Erm, it's not that difficult, really. (1) Navigate oneself to... https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge (2) Click on "Start now" and be taken to... https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/Choose (3) Click on "Make a one off payment" and click on "Next" And carry on for several more screens entering various data. Four screens by my count, with the following info requested: (1) Enter vehicle reg number (2) Confirm the vehicle make & model (no need to enter this, it's taken from the DVLA database) (3) Choose how many crossings you wish to pay for (they are valid for up to a year) (4) Enter and confirm email address for receipt (5) Enter payment card details They're not asking for anything more than the bare minimum of info needed. It's much the same as paying the London CC charge. I agree the London CC doesn't lend itself to contactless (leaning out of your car on Park Lane at 40mph), but the palaver above is a monstrous bit of cost externalisation and should never have been allowed. The entire point of the exercise was not about cost externalisation but improving traffic flow at the crossing - everything I've read and heard suggests that this has essentially been successful, though 'sheer weight of traffic' can't be solved by free flow tolling. So I disagree with you. I do however think some aspects of the tolling arrangements could be better, but the underlying concept of free flow tolling at this crossing is sound. It works elsewhere just fine. They could just as easily have implemented a hybrid scheme with a few lanes taking payment. Bearing in mine that there is an exit/entrance slip immediately before/after both ends of the crossing and there are a lot of people who need to place themselves in a particular lane to use that slip, and then there are a lot of people who need to make sure that they are not in that lane so as not to inadvertently get trapped into leaving the M25 when they don't want to this would mean payment booths on both the inside and the outside of each direction. It would be a nightmare of weaving cars as people who wanted to/didn't want to pay cash realised they were in the wrong lane What's different about the Dartford Crossing is that its strategic location means it's more likely to see people who only use it once or twice a year. It might be reasonable to add more alternatives to the current payment options, but having optional cash booths on the road isn't one of them tim |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
In message , at 13:35:51 on Fri, 16 Sep
2016, tim... remarked: They could just as easily have implemented a hybrid scheme with a few lanes taking payment. Bearing in mine that there is an exit/entrance slip immediately before/after both ends of the crossing and there are a lot of people who need to place themselves in a particular lane to use that slip, and then there are a lot of people who need to make sure that they are not in that lane so as not to inadvertently get trapped into leaving the M25 when they don't want to this would mean payment booths on both the inside and the outside of each direction. It would be a nightmare of weaving cars as people who wanted to/didn't want to pay cash realised they were in the wrong lane None of this was a problem when the choice was Dart-tag or cash. -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
On 16/09/2016 15:24, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 13:35:51 on Fri, 16 Sep 2016, tim... remarked: They could just as easily have implemented a hybrid scheme with a few lanes taking payment. Bearing in mine that there is an exit/entrance slip immediately before/after both ends of the crossing and there are a lot of people who need to place themselves in a particular lane to use that slip, and then there are a lot of people who need to make sure that they are not in that lane so as not to inadvertently get trapped into leaving the M25 when they don't want to this would mean payment booths on both the inside and the outside of each direction. It would be a nightmare of weaving cars as people who wanted to/didn't want to pay cash realised they were in the wrong lane None of this was a problem when the choice was Dart-tag or cash. Then the problem was with the queueing and associated slowing down and congestion caused. And that was a big problem, especially as traffic volumes went up. Like I said before, the change to free-flow tolling on the crossing was all about addressing this (which was a big problem), and from what I gather it has largely been a success - it doesn't solve congestion at the crossing of course but it doesn't add to it. The other alternative people inevitably suggest is abolishing tolls altogether, along with making the point that the cost of constructing the bridge was paid off in 2002. One then needs to consider whether the tolls (which are technically "road user charges") have some effect on controlling and limiting usage of the crossing, and if they were abolished how much extra congestion would be caused by more vehicles whose users were attracted to crossing for free. Like tim says, the idea of there being a few toll booths with otherwise free flowing traffic would be an accident black spot just waiting to happen. A PSA - there are two types of Dart Charge accounts... (1) a pre-pay account - top it up and "save up to a third" on crossing charges, and... (2) a pay-as-you-go account - free to create, register your vehicle (UK registered vehicles only) and your payment card and it will be charged when you make a crossing. https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/BeforeYouStartPayAsYouGo I would criticise the Dart Charge promotional information for not clearly pointing out the difference between the two above, and perhaps too heavily promoting the pre-pay account (which is the successor to the Dart-Tag scheme). I would also criticise them for not ensuring there is somewhere to pay the charge at the Thurrock services, or at either the Port of Dover or at the Eurotunnel terminal. (I think I'm correct in saying there's nowhere to pay at any of these three places - they certainly don't have shops with "payzone" facilities.) |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
"Mizter T" wrote in message
... Four screens by my count, with the following info requested: (1) Enter vehicle reg number (2) Confirm the vehicle make & model (no need to enter this, it's taken from the DVLA database) (3) Choose how many crossings you wish to pay for (they are valid for up to a year) (4) Enter and confirm email address for receipt (5) Enter payment card details They're not asking for anything more than the bare minimum of info needed. It's much the same as paying the London CC charge. Hardly surprising given that, these days, the Dartford crossing charge is just a congestion charge: the money collected is a tax and it does not fund the crossing infrastructure in any way. -- DAS |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 13:35:51 on Fri, 16 Sep 2016, tim... remarked: They could just as easily have implemented a hybrid scheme with a few lanes taking payment. Bearing in mine that there is an exit/entrance slip immediately before/after both ends of the crossing and there are a lot of people who need to place themselves in a particular lane to use that slip, and then there are a lot of people who need to make sure that they are not in that lane so as not to inadvertently get trapped into leaving the M25 when they don't want to this would mean payment booths on both the inside and the outside of each direction. It would be a nightmare of weaving cars as people who wanted to/didn't want to pay cash realised they were in the wrong lane None of this was a problem when the choice was Dart-tag or cash. that's because there were no special lanes for dart tag you just drove though a normal booth and the barrier opened without you paying tim |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
"D A Stocks" wrote in message ... "Mizter T" wrote in message ... Four screens by my count, with the following info requested: (1) Enter vehicle reg number (2) Confirm the vehicle make & model (no need to enter this, it's taken from the DVLA database) (3) Choose how many crossings you wish to pay for (they are valid for up to a year) (4) Enter and confirm email address for receipt (5) Enter payment card details They're not asking for anything more than the bare minimum of info needed. It's much the same as paying the London CC charge. Hardly surprising given that, these days, the Dartford crossing charge is just a congestion charge: the money collected is a tax and it does not fund the crossing infrastructure in any way. It will once the next crossing is built tim |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
In message , at 09:15:10 on Sat, 17 Sep
2016, tim... remarked: It would be a nightmare of weaving cars as people who wanted to/didn't want to pay cash realised they were in the wrong lane None of this was a problem when the choice was Dart-tag or cash. that's because there were no special lanes for dart tag you just drove though a normal booth and the barrier opened without you paying You could do that today using ANPR for those regular users with an account. -- Roland Perry |
Sadiq Khan and TfL on taxis and minicabs
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 09:15:10 on Sat, 17 Sep 2016, tim... remarked: It would be a nightmare of weaving cars as people who wanted to/didn't want to pay cash realised they were in the wrong lane None of this was a problem when the choice was Dart-tag or cash. that's because there were no special lanes for dart tag you just drove though a normal booth and the barrier opened without you paying You could do that today using ANPR for those regular users with an account. 1) you'd still need the barrier so that it could remain closed until the cash payer had paid the correct amount (and in the completely idiot proof system - received their change) 2) how do you determine which punters in the queue are going to post pay by internet? tim |
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