On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 14:01:39 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:51:45 on Thu, 10 Nov
2016, d remarked:

Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event
on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line.

TPWS-for-trams, anyone?
Doesn't sound like such a bad idea, under the circumstances.

I'm surprised such systems arn't installed already on trams like croydon
that are essentially railways in all but name.

Will these unfortunate deaths be included in the otherwise minimal stats
for "UK Rail Passenger Fatalities"?

Good question.

--
Spud

Roland Perry wrote on 10 Nov 2016 at 14:01 ...
In message , at 13:51:45 on Thu, 10 Nov
2016, d remarked:

Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event
on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line.

TPWS-for-trams, anyone?
Doesn't sound like such a bad idea, under the circumstances.

I'm surprised such systems arn't installed already on trams like croydon
that are essentially railways in all but name.

Will these unfortunate deaths be included in the otherwise minimal stats
for "UK Rail Passenger Fatalities"?

Yes, the ORR classify them as "non-mainline", covering "heritage
railways, tramways, light rail and metro systems".

These are the first deaths of passengers being carried on a rail vehicle
in Great Britain in an accident since Grayrigg in 2007.

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

In message , at 17:00:22 on Thu, 10 Nov
2016, d remarked:

Unlike a bus a train can't swerve out of the way if there's an
obstruction ahead

Vague memories of Greyrigg here.
--
Roland Perry

In article , d () wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 12:53:30 +0000
" wrote:
On 09.11.16 19:03, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 18:55:42 on Wed, 9 Nov
2016, " remarked:

Almost certain speed,

RAIB have dropped a huge hint about that.

driver or leaf fall?

---
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Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event
on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line.

TPWS-for-trams, anyone?
Doesn't sound like such a bad idea, under the circumstances.

I'm surprised such systems arn't installed already on trams like croydon
that are essentially railways in all but name.

I think the only system where you might be right is Manchester Metrolink
which has both railway signalled and drive-on-sight sections, with different
controller settings for each. Most trams in this country are driven like
buses. The only real difference is separate traffic signals which only apply
to trams (white lights). I can see a case for railway signals on the
off-road sections of Tramlink which would cover the section south of the
crash site to Sandilands tram stop. That might include overspeed protection
like TPWS.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 10/11/2016 17:00, d wrote:

That sounds like a retrograde step to me. Unlike a bus a train can't swerve out
of the way if there's an obstruction ahead the driver missed and as we have
seen, toppling over on a curve is a possibly. A bus would just skid.

Although buses can go through red lights and crash into trams, killing a
bus passenger:

"Andrzej Karcz, 28, was decapitated after being thrown from the front
window of the bus when bus driver Raouf Mraidi, 29, ran a red light and
slammed into a tram.
[...]
The collision, in September 2008, sent the 468 bus careering down George
Street, smashing into shop fronts before it finally came to a halt when
it crashed into a parked BMW."

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/n...m_crash_death/

The bus driver did a runner, but was extradited back to Britain:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-10672343
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On 2016-11-10 21:46:29 +0000, said:

I think the only system where you might be right is Manchester Metrolink
which has both railway signalled and drive-on-sight sections, with different
controller settings for each.

But is in the process of converting to drive-on-sight throughout - may
even be complete by now.

Most trams in this country are driven like
buses. The only real difference is separate traffic signals which only apply
to trams (white lights). I can see a case for railway signals on the
off-road sections of Tramlink which would cover the section south of the
crash site to Sandilands tram stop. That might include overspeed protection
like TPWS.

Interestingly, what we see as "tram signals" apply to buses in most
European countries too.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

In article ,
(Richard J.) wrote:

Roland Perry wrote on 10 Nov 2016 at 14:01 ...
In message , at 13:51:45 on Thu, 10 Nov
2016, d remarked:

Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an
event on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line.

TPWS-for-trams, anyone?
Doesn't sound like such a bad idea, under the circumstances.

I'm surprised such systems arn't installed already on trams like
croydon that are essentially railways in all but name.

Will these unfortunate deaths be included in the otherwise minimal stats
for "UK Rail Passenger Fatalities"?

Yes, the ORR classify them as "non-mainline", covering "heritage
railways, tramways, light rail and metro systems".

These are the first deaths of passengers being carried on a rail
vehicle in Great Britain in an accident since Grayrigg in 2007.

And the last time as many as 7 were killed is even longer ago. :-(

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 7:10:56 PM UTC, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 18:55:42 on Wed, 9 Nov 2016,
" remarked:

Almost certain speed,

RAIB have dropped a huge hint about that.

driver or leaf fall?

---
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https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event
on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line.

TPWS-for-trams, anyone?
--
Roland Perry

The latest from the BBC is that it was a Wimbledon-bound train that
derailed after taking a 12mph corner too fast. Explains why the driver has
been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter. They are also investigating if
he was asleep. Apparently trams aren't fitted with devices to apply the
brakes if travelling too fast.

but, according to the BBC, they are fitted with devices that apply the
brakes if the driver falls asleep

Ever stranger and stranger

tim

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 17:38:20 +0000
Neil Williams wrote:
On 2016-11-10 17:00:22 +0000, d said:

That sounds like a retrograde step to me. Unlike a bus a train can't swerve
out
of the way if there's an obstruction ahead the driver missed and as we have
seen, toppling over on a curve is a possibly. A bus would just skid.

Buses can and do topple if driven too fast round corners. National
Express gave up double-decker operation for years when this happened to
one of theirs.

Yes, fair point. But in general a bus is more likely to skid than topple.
Didn't LT make a point of showing videos of old routemasters that would never
topple over no matter what idiotic moves a bus driver did with them?
Admittedly it was on a skid pan so there were no curbs or other obstacles
for the wheels to get caught on, but even so.

--
Spud

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 21:26:01 -0800 (PST)
Offramp wrote:
At his forum David Icke reckons that this tram crash, like all rail and bus=
crashes, was a hoax. See https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=3D29=
9862&page=3D17

David Icke is usually for entertainment value only , but this is just
hideously disrespectful to the people who died and were hurt. I know the man
is borderline mentally ill, but I can't help thinking he should lose a few
teeth over this one.

--
Spud